woah, this whole discussion turned into something.. well.. something not smooth.
So I'll just add one question.
Saturn wrote:
I'm glad you guys like my idea and the run so much. This gives me an enormous amount of motivation to work on it further, thank you all!
If kind words can motivate you to work faster, how much kind words would it take to have you finish the run in.. say.. one week? I'm prepared to type all night if needed :p
Of course I didn't meant it that exactly. The progressing speed mostly depends on the amount of testing I have to do in later situations which I can't plan ahead. Also I don't always have much freetime for TASing but I try to progress. There is no way for me to get to Ridley in one week because I will be pretty busy in the next days. Sometimes I get too tired in the evening which doesn't allow me to record a good TAS so I better let it be until I feel better.
Highness:
There is no way to use any tricks you mentioned during the pause screen. I tested different button presses during the screen but nothing works. The in-game timer stops during all Item-screens anyway so I don't lose time picking a item at all
Well, if MF was 13.5 seconds ahead of Terima at super missile/mockball room, and Saturn was 0.3 seconds ahead of MF at Ceres, I expect three to five minutes overall improvement, based on the:
• faster moving while arm pumping constantly (a sure minute only for that);
Not sure about than one.
moozooh wrote:
• frame perfect jumping (especially walljumping and climbing small heights);
Of course you can add up a couple of frames here, maybe even a couple of seconds, but nothing major.
moozooh wrote:
• frame perfect falling (also using the advantages of G-force to fall faster through the exploding blocks and vertical doors);
The one published used this at most places possible.
moozooh wrote:
• creative and frame perfect mockballing (ideally, it should be used every time Samus is obliged to travel a distance in ball form, just like in the end of Saturn's second video);
Not more than a couple of frames, at a couple of places in the game where it isn't used in the published video.
moozooh wrote:
• more creative use of superjumps and short charge boosts when possible (and it looks pretty cool, also);
The super jump has a 1-2 second delay of no movement after being used, and drains 1 hp per frame, it's used at the most convenient places in the published video.
Using speed boosted space jump is faster since you can shoot doors earlier, and keep the momentum through the door. I don't think there's one place where the super jump isn't used, where it could've saved much time.
moozooh wrote:
• using doppler effect on every boss possible to shoot faster;
Yes. This can be used at 2 bosses in the game, Kraid, which saves a couple of frames, and Phantoon to make it one round shorter, since getting missiles enough for one round Phantoon in an any% will only make it slower in the end.
moozooh wrote:
• exploiting the possibility of hitting an enemy (I'm talking mainly about Ridley, if it's possible at all) twice with a single charged plasma shot;
The plasma beam doesn't penetrate Ridley, and it's used everywhere else. The Ridley battle in the published video is very well planned and executed. I don't think it can be improved much, if anything at all.
moozooh wrote:
• manipulating unavoidable enemies (such as ninja pirates) such a way which allows you to kill them simultaneously or without any serious slowdowns;
They have a set pattern of movements, there's nowhere in the room you stand to make both of them vulnerable, since standing between them will make them jump towards you, and when they're standing to close to each other, no one will do the jump kick.
moozooh wrote:
• just more accurate playing (eg. setting a power bomb off just before a boss becomes vulnerable to inflict additional damage without wasting any time, manipulating luck to get all the powerups you need along your way, etc.).
The power bomb makes the boss invulnerable for 2-4 seconds, in which it cannot be hit with any weapons. And power bombs can only damage Ridley. Power bombs are set the first possible frame, or a couple of frames after in most places of the published video. Luck is manipulated in many places of the published video.
moozooh wrote:
I think even a 5 minute improvement to Terima's run is possible this way.
No, this is not possible.
creothceann wrote:
The blocks that vanish (when you walk over them) re-appear during the pause, IIRC. This is probably the only exception though.
Saturn - And it's not possible to bomb-jump out of it either right?
Like place a bomb that detonates the very same moment as you grab the item?
Sounds interesting but it won't work. When you touch a item everything gets paused (even the background animation) imediately. It doesn't matter if a bomb explodes in this moment or not.
And about the any% time discussion:
I personally believe that Teri's run can be improved by at least 3 minutes using all the newest speed tricks perfect optimized in every room. Mavbe the arm pumping won't save a full minute alone but at least a half during the entire game. The acceleration of it is much greater so it is even more effective in short distances to use which are alot available in the game.
Yes, in Zero mission also bombable blocks respawn during the pause when picking up an item. Also, the in-game timer doesn't stop when picking up an item.
Well if it's possible to derive almost a quarter of a minute from the first ~8 minutes of the gameplay, and then there are about 15 minutes of pure non-stop running, I think it is utterly possible.
Graveworm wrote:
Of course you can add up a couple of frames here, maybe even a couple of seconds, but nothing major.
One frame here, one frame there — they all sum up pretty well, you know. There are enough microscopic mistakes (on a frame level; maybe not even mistakes but just unwise moves) in Terima's run to squeeze another couple of seconds while cleaning them up.
Graveworm wrote:
Using speed boosted space jump is faster since you can shoot doors earlier, and keep the momentum through the door. I don't think there's one place where the super jump isn't used, where it could've saved much time.
Well yeah, except for those places where you can't save your momentum to fly through the next room because of its geometry, but still can carry your charge to another area. What am I thinking about is a possible advantage of combining short charge with a diagonal superjump, with its ability to "slide" through some edges and vertical walls.
And again, if it really doesn't save more than a few frames, we still have at least two benefits: the use of an entertaining trick and time saving.
Graveworm wrote:
Yes. This can be used at 2 bosses in the game, Kraid, which saves a couple of frames, and Phantoon to make it one round shorter, since getting missiles enough for one round Phantoon in an any% will only make it slower in the end.
Agree with you on Phantoon, but still, doesn't it just help you to actually land your hits faster in any boss/miniboss battle? This is another serious frame shaveoff, as I see it.
Graveworm wrote:
They have a set pattern of movements, there's nowhere in the room you stand to make both of them vulnerable, since standing between them will make them jump towards you, and when they're standing to close to each other, no one will do the jump kick.
Oh, didn't know that. So there is absolutely no possibility to kill them faster than that?
And what about the other "steel door" monster sets (like those of Brinstar in a small Energy tank room)?
Graveworm wrote:
The power bomb makes the boss invulnerable for 2-4 seconds, in which it cannot be hit with any weapons. And power bombs can only damage Ridley.
Ah, I see. I never bothered to use them on the bosses back on my SNES, anyway. :D
Graveworm wrote:
No, this is not possible.
Time will show. ;)
BTW, thanks for the info Graveworm.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
One frame here, one frame there — they all sum up pretty well, you know. There are enough microscopic mistakes (on a frame level; maybe not even mistakes but just unwise moves) in Terima's run to squeeze another couple of seconds while cleaning them up.
Hmm, you might have a point. Terimakasih did finish those movies pretty fast, after all.
put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
Joined: 3/24/2004
Posts: 248
Location: West 81st Street
If someone will improve the Any% run, they'll use the "Arm Pumping" to get out of the bomb room without fighting the Torizo right? This is the only thing really bothering me at the moment. Or was this only possible in the European version, and the total overall speed would slow the run down or something? I can't remember.
Unfortunately I don't have the patience to start yet another Super Metroid run nowadays (Frenom and I used to do a bunch of them a little over a year ago...)
It's not possible in either version: Messing with the European version only got Samus stuck further and further into the door, and so it was deemed nigh-impossible in the US version.
(edit: I stand corrected)
Well yeah, except for those places where you can't save your momentum to fly through the next room because of its geometry, but still can carry your charge to another area. What am I thinking about is a possible advantage of combining short charge with a diagonal superjump, with its ability to "slide" through some edges and vertical walls.
I still don't get it, where do you mean?
moozooh wrote:
Well if it's possible to derive almost a quarter of a minute from the first ~8 minutes of the gameplay, and then there are about 15 minutes of pure non-stop running, I think it is utterly possible.
This time was not saved entirely from running faster, I believe that maybe half of that time was saved from running, though I really don't have any idea of how much was saved.
moozooh wrote:
Oh, didn't know that. So there is absolutely no possibility to kill them faster than that?
And what about the other "steel door" monster sets (like those of Brinstar in a small Energy tank room)?
Michael Flatley does it faster, it can be seen in his video. I don't know if that energy tank should be picked up in a tool-assisted demo though.
moozooh wrote:
Agree with you on Phantoon, but still, doesn't it just help you to actually land your hits faster in any boss/miniboss battle? This is another serious frame shaveoff, as I see it.
I'm not sure, but I don't think so. The only mini-boss you kill is the dragon worm, and that boss is killed with only 6 missiles and 4 super missiles. 2 charged spazer/wave should deal more damage than 5 missiles do, and takes a shorter time to deal with, than the missiles pickup, since there's not only 4-6 seconds of pause, but you also have to get detour to get them, maybe losing all your speed, or going in a different direction than you were supposed to.
moozooh wrote:
One frame here, one frame there — they all sum up pretty well, you know. There are enough microscopic mistakes (on a frame level; maybe not even mistakes but just unwise moves) in Terima's run to squeeze another couple of seconds while cleaning them up.
Maybe you didn't read careful enough, but I did agree with you on that one.
moozooh wrote:
Oh, didn't know that. So there is absolutely no possibility to kill them faster than that?
moozooh wrote:
Ah, I see. I never bothered to use them on the bosses back on my SNES, anyway.
Don't get caught uneducated, you might confuse people and lead them to a wrong decision.
Michael Flatley does it faster, it can be seen in his video. I don't know if that energy tank should be picked up in a tool-assisted demo though.
If you can pick it up before fighting Kraid, it might be necessary to make it to (and through) lower Norfair, but I seem to remember that room being one you could only get on the way out after beating Kraid, in which case it's definitely not worth it, at least for the RBO-Suitless.
I thought he was referring to the door early in Kraid's area where the door won't open to let you out until you kill all the leech-bug-things, that has an Energy tank in it.
Who? Why are you talking about "RBO" and yes, it has an energy tank.
This particular discussion is about fastest possible playthrough.
No, its a RBO and Suitless run. Saturn has beginn with the fastest possible playthrough. But later he has changed into the RBO and Suitless. This is 100%.
Last TAS finished: Final Fantasy Adventure (4.0 Warp Glitch Run)
WIP in the moment: Tail Gator (GB)
Matty
You could draw a 3-way train wreck about this thread.
Graveworm & moozooh are talking about improving the any% run. Saturn is doing the RBO-suitless run (but also commented on the any%). I am doing 100%, but haven't really talked about it much yet.
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
Joined: 3/24/2004
Posts: 248
Location: West 81st Street
Nightcom wrote:
If someone will improve the Any% run, they'll use the "Arm Pumping" to get out of the bomb room without fighting the Torizo right? This is the only thing really bothering me at the moment. Or was this only possible in the European version, and the total overall speed would slow the run down or something? I can't remember.
Unfortunately I don't have the patience to start yet another Super Metroid run nowadays (Frenom and I used to do a bunch of them a little over a year ago...)
nifboy wrote:
It's not possible in either version: Messing with the European version only got Samus stuck further and further into the door, and so it was deemed nigh-impossible in the US version.
Bag of Magic Food wrote:
No no it's possible in the European version!!!! Trust me it is!!
Yes, it's possible. It didn't clear up my question if someone would use it, and if not then why not?
