Topic by hero_of_the_day

Posted: 1/14/2007 1:13 AM

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hero_of_the_day

Player (88)

Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1057
Location: United States

hey Saturn, glad to see you around. Thanks for that information you posted, I think I am going to make some revisions to my route based on it. I was unaware that the shinespark to draygon required the high jump boots. This will slow my route down considerably. I am now thinking that I may pick up the high jump and energy tank before getting the speed booster, and saving kraid for after ridley. I am going to try to get the shinespark to work without the hj boots, since you said you were within 5 frames of getting it. If it doesnt work then I must collect the boots at some time. The route you showed from draygon to tourian was pretty much what I had planned on doing, but just without the space jump. It looked so damn cool when you did it with the space jump. I will do some heavy testing when I get to that area, but you may certainly be correct about collecting the space jump (though it should be close either way). Also Saturn I had some questions for you. How difficult is it to land all 4 hits on ridley with the power/wave combo? Would this in fact be easier with the high jump boots? Do you know approximately how long it would take to land 10 of those on him?

They're off to find the hero of the day...

Posted: 1/14/2007 1:46 AM

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JXQ

Experienced player (750)

Joined: 5/6/2005
Posts: 3132

What I find funny is that Hero's "sloppy" test run would still beat the published run by a considerable margin. :)

<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)

Posted: 1/14/2007 1:55 AM

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Saturn

Player (209)

Joined: 2/18/2005
Posts: 1451

I definitely would delay Kraid after Ridley in your case, otherwise sacrificing time in WS due to lack of Speed Booster and having Gravity Suit early looks pretty pointless. Landing all 4 hits with PB/Wave combo on Ridley is pretty difficult, mostly because his tail will almost always block the bottom behind one. I had to heavily manipulate his position in order to hit him all 4 times which was by far the most difficult part in this fight. Hitting him 10 times in a row like that might be even more difficult, but hopefully still possible with careful planing. And of course having the HJ-Boots would help alot here since you will often require a high position to fully hit Ridley. And just for comparison: 1 PB/Wave combo (if hitting all 4 times) saves around 90 frames compared to 4 charged Spazer/Wave/Ice shots which would deal the same damage. 4*61 = 244 for Spazer, and around 150-160 frames between a optimal PB/Wave Combo. Therefore doing 10 Combos would cost around 25 sec compared to 40 sec if doing same damage with Spazer shots.

See my perfect 100% movie-walkthroughs of the best RPG games on http://www.freewebs.com/saturnsmovies/index.htm Current TAS project (with new videos): Super Metroid Redesign, any% speedrun

Posted: 1/18/2007 1:24 AM

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hero_of_the_day

Player (88)

Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1057
Location: United States

Thanks again Saturn, you really know a lot about this game. No doubt your run will blow mine out of the water. So... The difference between using pb/wave combo on ridley and charged spa/wav/ice is 15 seconds. Though if I go with the pb/wave combo, I cannot shinespark though the room before ridley because I will need to pick up 5 pb item drops from the enemies. Not only that, but collecting the second power bomb pack takes over 10 seconds. It may be better to just use charged spa/wav/ice on him. I guess that will require testing when I get to it. As for the progress of my run. Today I started the run and I am past ridley in ceres station, currently 7 frames ahead of JXQ. Unfortunately I lose a frame in the room right after the fight with ridley, and I cannot explain why. Losing this frame is causing bad steam timing in the 3rd room, so I must figure out why I lose one frame to JXQ's run in this room. This is very lame and has consumed a lot of time, once I beat ceres the rest of the run should be quite easy by comparison.

They're off to find the hero of the day...

Posted: 1/18/2007 6:40 AM

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OmnipotentEntity

He/Him

Player (36)

Joined: 9/11/2004
Posts: 2623

Have you checked the previous room when the door opened. Chances are you lost that frame because JXQ had a higher speed entering the room than you did. Just a guess, I haven't seen your WIP, but the room right after Ridley is pretty easy, that's the only hairy factor.

Build a man a fire, warm him for a day, Set a man on fire, warm him for the rest of his life.

Posted: 1/20/2007 6:44 AM

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hero_of_the_day

Player (88)

Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1057
Location: United States

Yea OmnipotentEntity I tried that, but it turned out not to be the problem. I had to shift samus over a couple pixels after the door opened to put her into a better position, I managed to save the frame only to end up losing 6 frames in the escape due to bad steam timing. I had to delay those 6 frames intentionally. Well luckily I finished ceres station 1 frame ahead of JXQ, but with a worse escape time, go figure. Since I am aiming for real time, I don't really care about the escape clock's time. Anyway, I am at the morphball and I am 9 frames ahead of JXQ. I know Saturn managed to get there slightly faster, but I decided not to go frame crazy with this run. I would like to finish this run as quickly as possible, since school work may consume my free time in a couple weeks. If I try making this run absolutely perfect, it would take months to complete. I think the quality of my run should at least be comparable to JXQ's run when it is complete.

They're off to find the hero of the day...

Posted: 1/20/2007 5:26 PM

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Saturn

Player (209)

Joined: 2/18/2005
Posts: 1451

Wow, if you only had 1 frame lead at the beginning of Zebes, saving 8 more frames on the way to the morphball alone is very very good! I'm not even sure if I could improve this 8 frames in Zebes at morphball, if not counting Ceres. Will you post WIP's or do you prefer the "big release" only? Either way, best of luck to you! Maybe you find even more time saver somewhere, as I already noticed a slight move-technique mistake in my any% run after seeing and comparing to your test run, which I'm too far away to improve now. Hopefully this will stay as the only one in the entire run. >:-/

See my perfect 100% movie-walkthroughs of the best RPG games on http://www.freewebs.com/saturnsmovies/index.htm Current TAS project (with new videos): Super Metroid Redesign, any% speedrun

Posted: 1/20/2007 6:01 PM

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hero_of_the_day

Player (88)

Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1057
Location: United States

Thanks Saturn! I kinda want the finished run to be a surprise to everyone, so I am hesitant about posting my progress. If there are people who really want to see wips, I guess I don't mind posting them up until a certain point in the game. Maybe I'll post em up until the exit of the wrecked ship. If anyone really wants to see it after that they can PM me. http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/3495/Super%20Metroid%20TAS.smv Just out of curiosity Saturn which part of my test run contained a useful move? May be helpful to know so I don't accidentally change it :P I am guessing it was the jump across the missle lake after getting the gravity suit?

They're off to find the hero of the day...

Posted: 1/20/2007 7:48 PM

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Saturn

Player (209)

Joined: 2/18/2005
Posts: 1451

It was in Red Brinstar, climbing up the shaft to the elevator right after geting the Power Bombs. To save time I instinctively aimed to lay the bomb as soon as possible to open the door through which you have to go back later, and then killing the cacti with a charged shot for a unavoidable refill, but apparently it's still slightly faster to first kill it and then lay the bomb because the cooldown of it takes too much time until you can have a ready charged shot, which forces you to wait for the refill around 10 frames longer. Here a video for better understanding: http://rapidshare.com/files/12586782/SM_-_Red_Brinstar_Elevator_Shaft.avi.html And thanks for the WIP hero, except of the Ceres escape it looks very solid so far!

See my perfect 100% movie-walkthroughs of the best RPG games on http://www.freewebs.com/saturnsmovies/index.htm Current TAS project (with new videos): Super Metroid Redesign, any% speedrun

Posted: 1/20/2007 10:11 PM

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Saturn

Player (209)

Joined: 2/18/2005
Posts: 1451

I'm sorry to not mentioning it before, but I wanted to keep it secret until the RBO release to show a new technique. But since it's out now, I should share it: http://www.metroid2002.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=161989#161989 You can get Spore Spawn's Super Missile without the need to Crystal Flash! This will save around 10-15 sec in a 100% TAS as well, so go for it JXQ. :-)

See my perfect 100% movie-walkthroughs of the best RPG games on http://www.freewebs.com/saturnsmovies/index.htm Current TAS project (with new videos): Super Metroid Redesign, any% speedrun

Posted: 1/20/2007 10:25 PM

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JXQ

Experienced player (750)

Joined: 5/6/2005
Posts: 3132

O_o Wow. That is very fastest.

<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)

Posted: 1/21/2007 1:03 AM

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Tub

Joined: 6/25/2005
Posts: 1377

wow, so it IS possible. I remember talks about it, but everyone who tried said "impossible". But that never stopped you, right? How did you get it working? Is it just a matter of timing the shot right, or does the power bomb play a role?

m00

Posted: 1/21/2007 1:37 AM

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moozooh

Senior Moderator

Joined: 8/4/2005
Posts: 5770
Location: Away

So apparently, Saturn's contribution to Super Metroid runs is already as big as Michael Flatley's. Come to think of it: • super short charge — saves more than a minute in 100% and a considerable amount in any% (and it's a great trick by itself); • skipping the Spore Spawn pack Crystal Flash — saves about half a minute in a 100% considering that no HP should be drained and no ammo should be refilled; • killing Draygon in two rounds saving 4 seconds; • one-rounding Phantoon with 4 missile packs faster than JXQ did with 8; • single-wall underwater walljumping; • demonstrating such thing as killing a pirate guardian in lower Norfair using a speed echo and getting 6 super missile refills from him at the same time (sick!); • numerous other local speed tricks. Saturn for Super Metroid = Nitsuja for Sonic.

Warp wrote:

Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.

Posted: 1/21/2007 2:37 AM

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Saturn

Player (209)

Joined: 2/18/2005
Posts: 1451

Tub: Something just gave me the feeling that it might be possible, and since Super Missiles have a extreme acceleration I already suspected that it could work, so I did test it. It's all a matter of timing. The Power Bomb has absolutely no effect on it. You have to make sure that the Super has enough room to accelerate and that it gets offscreen as late as possible by finding the right distance when shooting. That way it still catches the block. And thanks moozooh. Funny thing is, I never searched for this tricks directly, they all came over me in the game and forced me to "discover" them in order to survive in the runs I did, more or less. :-P

See my perfect 100% movie-walkthroughs of the best RPG games on http://www.freewebs.com/saturnsmovies/index.htm Current TAS project (with new videos): Super Metroid Redesign, any% speedrun

Posted: 1/21/2007 3:07 AM

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JXQ

Experienced player (750)

Joined: 5/6/2005
Posts: 3132

Saturn wrote:

I never searched for this tricks directly, they all came over me in the game and forced me to "discover" them in order to survive in the runs I did

Reminds me of jimsfriend. He gets somewhere and MAKES the trick work that he needs. It's unreal. Anyway, Saturn would be a ninja if Super Metroid was Mega Man, or if the ninja rank meant anything concrete. I never imagined my previous run having this much improvement to find. This trick in particular shifts so much focus off of a very time consuming part of the run, and exponentially eases my ammo situation at that point. Excellent find!

<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)

Posted: 1/21/2007 3:32 AM

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moozooh

Senior Moderator

Joined: 8/4/2005
Posts: 5770
Location: Away

JXQ wrote:

This trick in particular shifts so much focus off of a very time consuming part of the run, and exponentially eases my ammo situation at that point.

Yes, according to my rough estimations, you probably won't ever be needing to get any refills that aren't already on your way after that point, unless a shortage of super missiles at Mother Brain's second form would cost more time than manipulating the Golden Torizo to drop them.

Warp wrote:

Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.

Posted: 1/21/2007 5:43 AM

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hero_of_the_day

Player (88)

Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1057
Location: United States

Just killed the torizo, now 48 frames ahead of JXQ. I am not really satisfied with the fight though, I get the feeling it could be done faster but I don't know how. Oh well, if I cannot figure it out I will be moving on to Brinstar. http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/3507/Super%20Metroid%20TAS.smv

They're off to find the hero of the day...

Posted: 1/21/2007 7:41 AM

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KDR_11k

Joined: 1/23/2006
Posts: 352
Location: Germany

Kinda unrelated question: I rewatched the low% run and kept wondering what makes the charge beam necessary. Do bosses take no damage at all from normal shots?

Posted: 1/21/2007 7:42 AM

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moozooh

Senior Moderator

Joined: 8/4/2005
Posts: 5770
Location: Away

KDR_11k wrote:

Do bosses take no damage at all from normal shots?

Sure.

Warp wrote:

Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.

Posted: 1/21/2007 2:42 PM

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JXQ

Experienced player (750)

Joined: 5/6/2005
Posts: 3132

moozooh wrote:

Yes, according to my rough estimations, you probably won't ever be needing to get any refills that aren't already on your way after that point, unless a shortage of super missiles at Mother Brain's second form would cost more time than manipulating the Golden Torizo to drop them.

It's quicker to avoid refills and just use the charged shots instead. Every three super missiles against Mother Brain gains only a couple frames (I think).

<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)

Posted: 1/21/2007 5:06 PM

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KDR_11k

Joined: 1/23/2006
Posts: 352
Location: Germany

Sure they do or sure they don't?

Posted: 1/21/2007 5:11 PM

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moozooh

Senior Moderator

Joined: 8/4/2005
Posts: 5770
Location: Away

KDR_11k wrote:

Sure they do or sure they don't?

Sure they don't. Some of the regular enemies don't, either. Bosses are only vulnerable to charged shots and missiles (some of them are also vulnerable to P-bombs, and Torizo is vulnerable to everything).

Warp wrote:

Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.

Posted: 1/21/2007 6:37 PM

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Saturn

Player (209)

Joined: 2/18/2005
Posts: 1451

JXQ wrote:

It's quicker to avoid refills and just use the charged shots instead. Every three super missiles against Mother Brain gains only a couple frames (I think).

One frame every 3 Super Missile shots compared to Charged Plasma. No need to sacrifice time at all for refills if it's only required for Mother Brain.

See my perfect 100% movie-walkthroughs of the best RPG games on http://www.freewebs.com/saturnsmovies/index.htm Current TAS project (with new videos): Super Metroid Redesign, any% speedrun

Posted: 1/21/2007 10:47 PM

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OgreSlayeR

Former player

Joined: 7/12/2004
Posts: 524
Location: USA

Looks good so far Hero. BTW, back when I tried TASing this I think I found a slightly faster way to bomb that one wall that leads to Brinstar. Here is a quick and unoptimized movie to show you what I mean. I think it was 3 frames faster or so I forgot.

Working on: Command and Conquer PSX Nod Campaign

Posted: 1/21/2007 11:28 PM

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hero_of_the_day

Player (88)

Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1057
Location: United States

Thanks OgreSlayeR, I was actually planning to use this technique after I saw your demonstration a few pages back on this thread.

They're off to find the hero of the day...