Looks great, hero!
I'm glad you finally realized that the only way to show real quality in a Super Metroid run is to aim for ingame frame counter and not let yourself depend on some emulator version (that will be changed in the future anyway), which emulates the realtime frames differently, and destroys all comparison possibilities between runs.
Or was it only done for Ceres that way, to just compare to JXQ?
In any case, good luck for Zebes!
I kinda continued my run, I'm at LN elevator at the moment. Hero pretty cool. Didn't Saturn get the same clock in his RBO?
Speaking about it Saturn how are your runs going?
And could someone please advice me how to get the frame counter to be there when I'm TASing? I've never used it and I think it might make me do better TASes.
<Deign> .dice 1d1999191023443691
<BisqBot> Deign rolls a blackhole and destroys the planet.
I will always vote for the movie which completes the game in the shortest amount of frames. If the movie is shorter in real time, I'll vote yes, if it's longer in real time, I'll vote no. I'll still vote yes if you aimed for ingame time and it's shorter in real time, but that does mean the movie is improvable in my view.
You seem to forget that TASes are not only about the amount of frames. There are sufficient reasons for both choices. Don't hurry assuming things if you don't know these reasons well enough.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
JXQ, I just said my opinion (without any insult intentions).
Baxter wrote:
I will always vote for the movie which completes the game in the shortest amount of frames. If the movie is shorter in real time, I'll vote yes, if it's longer in real time, I'll vote no. I'll still vote yes if you aimed for ingame time and it's shorter in real time, but that does mean the movie is improvable in my view.
Wrong view.
It's not about improving, it's actually the exact opposite. You deteriorate the quality of your run just to make door transitions (and in some cases slight lag) faster. In the end, a watcher will hardly notice the small frame delays at the few critical door transitions, but definitely will see the sloppy jumping in order to move the screen up for a shorter door transition (for example like before Speed Booster). As moozooh said, TASing is not only about lag reduction and frame count. The actual playing quality, which automatically increases entertainment in most cases, also has importance, especially in Super Metroid.
This is probably the least biased explanation we have of the differences:
Mechanics of the in-game timer.
You'll notice this summary avoids phrases like "in-game timer is the only way to make a quality run", and "in-game timer is just a way for TASers to ignore the tougher parts of optimization", which are both very opinionated, and attacking the other side.
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
True JXQ, but I actually try to reduce lag as much as possible, as long as it doesn't affect the ingame timer, so the "in-game timer is just a way for TASers to ignore the tougher parts of optimization" sentance doesn't really fit to my case.
And I made a quality run with frame count, so your attack doesn't fit into mine either. That wasn't my point. Nevermind, just forget about it, like I should have in the first place.
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1057
Location: United States
Oh, sorry to give the wrong impression, I just meant that for comparison's sake the in-game frame counter is the only accurate tool. I still plan on aiming for real time by not using the pause menu, not using gravity jumps, and not collecting excessive items. In fact my route will be identical to my old run. The in-game frame counter is just easier to use for comparing because it stops during door transitions, so for ceres it is best to use.
Again, I am going for real time only.
My new in-game timer will be 24 minutes by the time I finish. A 23 is impossible either way (I believe), so there isn't any need to make real-time sacrifices.
Much respect to those who do aim for in-game time, I realize the history of speed running this game relied solely on the in-game timer so I can understand your stance fully. I just want to things with my own style and route, which aims for real time only.
Good point, hero. Thanks for clearing that up. With your route, sub 24 won't be possible, so it indeed doesn't matter much.
But of course, even with mainly aiming for ingame time, I wouldn't use Gravity Jump just to gain ~5-10 frames for a ~400 realtime frame sacrifice to go to menu twice, because as you all know, this would destroy the flow of the run. I only make realtime sacrifices on items if absolutely necessary to increase speed and entertainment, or if the loss is barely noticeable to the watcher (door transitions), and not that big. Just to make clear.
Evilchen I just watched your latest 10.smv that got all the way to Tourian, and those speed walljumps were just awesome! That's probably my favorite trick in Super Metroid. It would be nice to see it in all TAS runs. Kudos for that.
And Hero, your last runs realtime was something around 40 min am I correct? Do you think it's possible that with NTSC Torizo skip and several other timesavers found it's possible to go clearly to the 39 min side?
<Deign> .dice 1d1999191023443691
<BisqBot> Deign rolls a blackhole and destroys the planet.
He needs to improve it by 58 realtime seconds for that… I'm not saying it's impossible, but it won't be easy in the least. I can see about 40-45 seconds saved by various stuff we've discovered, but 58 — I wouldn't count on that, personally.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1057
Location: United States
yeah moozooh is probably right, 58 seconds is gonna be a very big stretch. I have been fooling around alot lately with the game and found quite a few more little time savers to implement into my new run. There will be one less pause screen menu which alone should save 2 or 3 realtime seconds. A couple areas will benefit from the continuous walljump which will save another 4-5 seconds. A phantoon 1 round kill will save 4-5 seconds. Obvioussly the torizo skip will save 17 seconds alone. There are so many other little things which I hope will add up. Since the in-game timer will easily be 24 minutes, my motivation will be for a sub 40 minute real-time goal however unlikely it may be.
How many missile packs are you going to take? Since Phantoon 1 round is possible with 2 I don't see any reason to take more, unless very needed later in game.
Found even more timesavers? SMV's or some kind of explanations would be nice. :) I'm amazed how can there even be more timesavers when watching the old any% TAS.
<Deign> .dice 1d1999191023443691
<BisqBot> Deign rolls a blackhole and destroys the planet.
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1057
Location: United States
I am gonna just take 2 missile packs en route to wrecked ship. I will eventually collect a third pack in the pre-wave beam room. 3 packs are the minimum to finish off the glass motherbrain without having to backtrack and refill. Other than that, missiles are almost completely useless.
By timesavers, I do not mean anything major, just finding a different way to go about getting through a room. If I found anything big I would post it on the forum.
Just thought about another thing. There's more lag on Snes9x 1.51 (as it's supposed to be), it will add a couple of seconds to the final time. So no, sub-40 I hardly believe in.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1057
Location: United States
evilchen:
I don't know if I posted this before, but this is another way of doing the pre-xray room. I haven't tested if it was faster, but it does eliminate the bomb jumping.
here
thanks hero ;) well lets say this one took sure moretime to rerecord :P because i needed about 20 rerecords or something like this for the preXrayroom i didnt really optimize anything in that run..
iam feeling how hard it is to get a good go in tasing with SM this subpixel subpixelspeed stuff is not that easy so its gonna take some more time again to give it a good go
edit:btw hero i dont know how to make the way too the xray like that because i want to shape of the waiting time at the way back but i guess it would make the way to the xray a bit longer but afterall it should be faster and more entertaining then just standing and waiting there or?
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1665479524/extraPbomb..smv
found out while fooling arround again, after a crystal flash the powerbomb icon stays selected(if you had 11 before to do so) and you can start a beam combo with 00 powerbombs then but only 1 time because the game disables the icon after the combo :D! maybe usefull maybe not what do you think?
Wow, nice discovery evilchen!
However I doubt this could ever be useful in any run. The only one that would require CF is the RBO/Suitless run, and the only place where a beam combo could be worth right after CF is at Ridley. Though since you will lose time to CF on the ground instead in the door while stucked, and because it's definitely better to collect more than 11 PBs for multiple Beam combos, it wouldn't be a option anyway.
Still a cool and original trick to keep in mind though. :-)
