Hmmm, that sounds much better and more realistic, hero. But since the speed and acceleration of a Super Missile shot can't be compared to anything else (it's still much faster than a shinespark), there is no way to get it offscreen, but then catch it up again when it passed the 2 blocks.
If it would be possible, then I'm sure you could open the gate, but unfortunately...
Soon to be proven possible:
1. The maridia green gate opened from reverse
Damn you. Now I'm going to press F5 until you post the smv or Bisqwit's server crashes. Good luck!
Interesting research on the 100% route. Even if it'll turn out to be only 3 frames faster, varia-less stuff always adds a ton of entertainment, especially for the casual viewers. 5 seconds? even better.
No, 3 hot rooms with 100 hp left afterwards. (200 damage total).
Here is a very very shitty playthrough. Please note how unoptmized this is and how much energy I had left. On a real run, Samus could potentially have 120 hp left. Also please note that I went a little trigger happy with the super missiles, in a real run you would only need 2 or maybe 3 if you want to destroy the enemy in the 3rd room.
here
Now if your reserve tank is full (it should be because you can fill up at the norfair elevator room), you would have 200 HP at this point. Plus 2 more big energy balls gained in the bubble room. that makes for 240 hp entering the "hot" room with the pipe bugs. Upon entering, he could get another big energy ball from the green things hanging from the ceiling. Thats makes for 260 hp. JXQ needs to enter the pause screen one time in his run anyway so deequip the spazer, so he might as well do that now and load up the reserve tank at the same time. With that much energy Samus can make it to the Speed booster and back. The pipe bugs only need be visited once. Upon fighting the pipe bugs, he could fill up both tanks and the reserve (this is the only true delay in the entire route). It would be enough energy to make it to the wave beam and back. After wave beam, the only hot rooms left are very short and drain very very little energy. Upon killing crocomire he would have 3 full etanks which would literally put him in the exact same position he would be otherwise. Have the high jump would also speed up some of these rooms (another added benefit of the route).
36 minutes is very possible btw, there are plenty of other new (hero) improvements to be had in this game ;) Also he could have made some realtime sacrifices, but opted not to.
Did I ever love that smv! The CWJ is probably my favorite trick in this game, it saves time in most cases and looks cool.
I'm really looking forward to this new stuff to be done in a real TAS, also good luck to that gate you're trying to open. Skipping mother brain and blowing Zebes up is possible, also going to Tourian using the elevator while being in morph ball is possible. I'm sure this also is. :)
<Deign> .dice 1d1999191023443691
<BisqBot> Deign rolls a blackhole and destroys the planet.
All respects to hero for still trying this, but honestly guys, don't expect too much about the gate. It's a technical and physical impossibility to open it from the wrong side at this conditions. I say it just so that you won't get disappointed that this breakthrough will never happen.
I admit that I didn't test it that much as hero already does, but I just don't feel like wasting my time on something that is impossible anyway (which I realized pretty early during the tests).
Also I have some more news:
moozooh once wrote:
I once again repeat that it isn't about ingame time or loading or anything else like that, it's about differences in timing and behaviour that are clearly observable. If you don't believe me, open my 1.51 Draygon battle and watch the turrets shooting about TWICE as fast as on 1.43. Sounds like not-really-100% correct emulation from one of them, huh? What about Ridley with his rain of fireballs whose degree of intensity on 1.43 isn't even close to that on 1.51?
I just tested it one more time, and as already thought, the differences moozooh mentioned depend entirely on the input. I'm 100% sure about this now. He was just unlucky to trigger them. I played through both bosses in realtime on both versions, testing different inputs to trigger different patterns, and for example I managed to not let Ridley shoot even one fireball during the entire fight on v1.51, and the opposite on v1.43. Same with the turrets at Draygon (whose behavior I actually know very good from SM-Impossible, since you can't kill them there).
So just to not let people stay confused about this matter, all this boss acting differences are just luck based. The only differences between this emulator-versions are the loading and door transition delays. The in-room emulation, including Samus' moves, and all possible enemies in them (bosses are not different than any other enemies in this game, just larger and with more complex move patterns) is 100% same in both versions.
holy shit guys.. iam back from vacation and stuff.. wow breaking finds lucky ceres was not perfect yet so there is much to develope for me i guess O_o *have to read all again i think* man man..
;D!
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/499844732/supwithThat.smv
i remember that from the suitless run ive done years ago(did it at the gate after golden torizo to get the screw attack without killing him..)
i dont know if its the speed or a possible pixel position maybe you guys know and maybe it can help pass heros green gate that way(or slightly different)
btw: i allready tried to pass it with the fake blue suit but nothing happend to mention
how to pass a green gate from the right has been known for a long time, there are even unassisted speedruns doing that.
passing from the left, when there's an extra block in front of that gate (look for the red circle on page 81) is a different matter.
i know it can be done unassisted but i dont know why ,does it only work to the left? i would be happy to know more about that.. and it was just a idea
and btw the blue block would not matter or? the missile flies through the gate and stuff not the block
Joined: 6/9/2005
Posts: 171
Location: Southern California
The reason that block is an issue, evilchen, is because the super missile would have to travel through that first block, a second block, and then explode on the third block. There are methods to abuse screen edges and scrolling to get the missile to clip through a single block; this double-block obstacle is proving very difficult to overcome.
From what I understand, the only hope would be to fire the super missile from far enough left that neither block is onscreen, and then time a shinespark accurately enough that the screen scrolls AFTER the missile passes the blue blocks, but BEFORE it passes the green button. As you can imagine, given the speed differences, this is a ridiculously tough maneuver to pull.
I agree that it's frustrating to have a nay-sayer waving the "impossible" flag about so prominently... never say never! :)
wow, I need to check this topic more often. Nice boomerang trick, I don't know why I never thought of using that for getting stuck in doors. >_<
Saturn: I don't remember saying it was impossible, though I might've. But I've been wrong before as well, so don't shut it down *yet*.
Although, I don't have any ideas at the moment that would succeed in opening the gate.
I know that, with a ton of speed and positioning, you can get a super missile to pass through and open the gate from the left in the same way you do it from the right. I'm assuming you've already played around with that and confirmed it's impossible to get the necessary speed in that space.
I've completely disassembled gate triggers of all types already. You have to hit the block the trigger is on with a super missile - there's no other viable tricks for opening the gate.
There's a bug with super missiles that I need to fix for Insanity anyways, so I'll start disassembling that code and see if I can turn up anything useful there.
kwinse wrote:
Kejardon wrote:
Kriole wrote:
Samus is damaged by a Rinka in the opening.
That's a script action; no damage.
... it just dawned on me I know way too much about SM.
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1057
Location: United States
I think I may have figured out a new method of opening the gate, which has a lot of potential. As you all know, when a super missile makes contact with any surface, the entire rooms vibrates. At first I thought that vibrations were just visual, but it turns out that the vibrations actually shift the hit boxes of all objects by a couple pixels.
Here is a quick demonstration.
Test #1
In this short movie, a super missile is fired when Samus' y pixel position is at 902, sub pixel position of 35840. The super missile clears the ledge.
Test #2
Now a preemptive super missile is fired in order to cause the room to shake. A second super missile is fired in the exact same position as in the first movie (y pixel position is at 902, sub pixel position of 35840) This time instead of clearing the ledge, the super missile makes contact!
What does this mean?
Like we already know, a super missile can easily pass through the gate itself. And we already knew the super can pass literally 1 pixel underneath the green button. Now if a second super missile can be fired into the closest wall in time, the green button will be shifted and the first super might make direct contact. After some preliminary testing, the speed of the first super missile is hard to keep up with since there is a 17 frame delay before a second one can be fired. I have been within 2 frames of getting the shot off in time. I urge others to try this as well.
actually, you aren't firing the super missiles from the same height. The second one is 3 pixels lower than the first one.
There's a feature in the game where, if you press the fire button one frame early, it will fire *next* frame. That's probably affecting your tests.
I've poked around the super missile code. If you want to get it to go through two blocks, you'll need the super missile to travel through 2 screens. No other exploits look feasible at the moment - a fast diagonal shot looks like the best option still.
kwinse wrote:
Kejardon wrote:
Kriole wrote:
Samus is damaged by a Rinka in the opening.
That's a script action; no damage.
... it just dawned on me I know way too much about SM.
Hmm, I'm at norfair and this will be a tough one I think, because the ammo management. I'm at 4 supers and 0 PB's and missile, and I have taken every refill I think is possible without slowing down much. It probably won't be possible to do without the pipe bug refills but we'll see, I don't want to use them...
There's a bug with super missiles that I need to fix for Insanity anyways, so I'll start disassembling that code and see if I can turn up anything useful there.
Another one besides the "when one super missle is destroyed they all are?" Do tell what this bug is.
And how is Insanity coming along anyway?
Build a man a fire, warm him for a day,
Set a man on fire, warm him for the rest of his life.
If you play with the super missile fix I have online for that, you might stumble over it.
Super missiles, as the text file online says, consist of two projectiles. The second projectile is not always deleted correctly, and you can end up overwriting a live projectile with a new one. This ends up with all sorts of bugs, like super missiles popping in and out of existence, changing directions in mid-air according to Samus's aiming (guided super missiles! ... no, I'm not going to implement that), and Samus firing explosions instead of super missiles.
I'm in the process of fixing that. Specifically, I'm deleting the second projectile. It's only used for preventing super missiles from going through walls, and the code to do that doesn't even work - super missiles will go through walls regardless. I'm also rewriting that code so super missiles actually won't go through walls (unless you get them going obscenely fast) so it'll work as it was intended.
Unfortunately, the bug is useless for opening that gate, as far as I can see. You won't get the guided super missiles or randomly spawning ones without the multiple super missile fix, so even though you can get fast-moving super missiles on the other side of the gate, they won't be moving towards the trigger.
kwinse wrote:
Kejardon wrote:
Kriole wrote:
Samus is damaged by a Rinka in the opening.
That's a script action; no damage.
... it just dawned on me I know way too much about SM.
Wow, that was a nice shock with the shaking rumor at first.
But no, I NEVER experienced any block position differences in both, horizontal and vertical direction during the screen shaking from the Super Missile (I had plenty of such situations during TASing when opening red or green doors while needing to make a jump onto a platform immediately after it (ex. Spazer room), so it won't help here as well.
Here is my take on heros test, this time with 100% same shot height in both conditions, which proves that shaking does not affect anything regarding hitboxes:
Without shakeWith shake
Kej, you said that such gates would require one to get at least the horizontal speed of when Samus starts getting the blue suit echos (without any speed lowering tricks like the shortcharge), which would require you at least 3 or 4 screens of acceleration room in order to reach. And this speed would even require a perfect shoot-position to the gate in order to work (we talk about the last possible tech - the diagonal shot through the gate). Unfortunately I can't see the 4 screens of acceleration room before this gate...
Hence, the impossibility.
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1057
Location: United States
new damage boost at ceres station located.
The top of the zig zag room contains a steam boost, and when hit properly a frame can be gained (possibly more, because I didn't test it fully). I figured I would mention it here, so that anyone else working on a new Super Metroid run can use it.
.smv
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1057
Location: United States
hey Cpadolf, maybe this will be of some use to you. I just developed it :)
here you go
Oddly enough this technique only saves about 30 frames, after taking into account the shudder walking part. Also I think taking the bottom route might be slower than the top route after collecting the boots, but at least now you have a choice in what route to take.
Regarding the steam boost, nice find, but I just tested it, and with perfect jumping like we usually did, it's exactly same fast, not faster. Just try it without the boost and compare the time from the last jump till the door to see.
hero of the day wrote:
hey Cpadolf, maybe this will be of some use to you. I just developed it :)
here you go
Oddly enough this technique only saves about 30 frames, after taking into account the shudder walking part. Also I think taking the bottom route might be slower than the top route after collecting the boots, but at least now you have a choice in what route to take.
Old stuff. I did test this when I was at this place in my any% WIP, and it doesn't even save 30 frames (I wonder where you got this value). If you fully take the shudder walk into account (that is, from the very first frame you start doing it), you lose so much time there that in the end it's only barely faster. I compared this alternative tech back then, and it was less than 5 frames faster than the usual method I and JXQ do. We get a very important Super Missile that way though, which will definitely save more than 5 frames because of less refills later. Alternatively you could do it the way I did in my 1st RBO demo, and this would most likely save the last 5 frames, but as said, the missing Super Missile refill wouldn't be worth it.
Oh and I confirm, the bottom exit route is even slightly slower than the top one, so it doesn't matter as well.
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1057
Location: United States
Well it does save about 30 frames, I compared a pretty optimized version of it to JXQ's times. I don't know where you got the idea that it only saves 5 frames.
I don't really care what you say about the steam boost either. I think it is faster. You still refuse to tell anyone where you found the extra 7 frames needed for a 49"15', so any new ideas I find I will post.
I guess that the acceleration storage should have given him 2-3 of those frames on the way back I expect, the rest, most likely from better optimized steam (probably in the second to last room) since he stated that he needed to manipulate luck already in the opening cutscene.
I shall now test hero's method in the pre Hi-jump room, but doing so I will also need to use the lower route back since I need a SM refill.
Nope, no good use for this in my run. Down to Hi-jump was 15 frames faster but since I need a SM refill from the enemy I had to take the lower route which turned out to be much slower and I ended up 17 frames slower then before. So the thing is that even if I could save the whole 30 frames down to Hi-jump (if that's possible) it would still be slower, sadly, because it looks totally kickass.
