Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1057
Location: United States
here is my more optimized test of it
This is why I calculated a savings of ~30 frames. Compare my frame counts to JXQ's then take into account the amount of time lost from the shudder. At least Cpadolf said it saved 15 frames, which is far more than the 5 saturn says it saved.
Which means that if you are able to skip the refill in that room you will gain time.
Anyway, I'm up to entering maridia now, I still had to use pipebug refills but only 2 rounds compared to my last run's 5. I am ~33 seconds ahead of my old time and I'll have to hope to gain time faster from this point forward because if I continue in this rate I'll get stuck somewhere around 24:20 if my calculations are correct. Though I do think that there are more larger improvement points from here on.
EDIT: Hmm that's a weird one, I tried to duplicate what you did, basically same subpixel startpoint, same input. but it doesn't work... don't really matter now but weird anyway.
Heh, nice one, I will definitely use it if I have enough health which I should get on the elite pirates. I presume that it's impossible to open the other door in any other way, at least in time.
To get 24:01 would be the ultimate kick in the crotch, the difference between 23:59 and 24:01 is so small but so significant.
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1057
Location: United States
yeah it is unlikely that you could open it the normal way in time. Remember that you can open it through a wrap around shot from many different places, you don't have to use the same spot that I used in that demo. Ideally you can use one of the spots on the platform to fire your beam, so you can spark earlier.
I haven't watched the vids, but if it looks kickass and you manage to lose less than 10 frames on the stunt, I would go totally for it.
Perhaps but I'm going all out for a 00:23, I won't risk that for a cool trick when there are plenty of others in there.
Hero
You have to shoot diagonally to get the wrap around to work right?
And are there any other special conditions that must be met?
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1057
Location: United States
yeah you can shoot diagonally up or down. The only thing is that it will only work at certain spots because of the wave like nature of the beam. Don't worry though, I know there are quite a few different starting positions that can open the door. Other than that, no, there are no other conditions that need be met.
Hero, your steam boost is not faster than a usual jump. See yourself:
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/769593669/cerestest_withoutDMGboost.smv
The door starts to open at 27'13 which is exactly the same time where it did with the steam boost variant. I used your smv, so the conditions are 100% same. Hope it's obvious now.
Regarding alternate HJ-tech, yes I see now that it's 15 frames faster than JXQs (it's still not 30 ;-) ). My version was 10 frames slower because I just didn't optimize it to the fullest. I couldn't allow to skip the Super Missile refill in my conditions, so I just did it sloppy to roughly see how much it could potentially save. Out of curiousity.
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1057
Location: United States
yeah it's not 30, but I would say it is around 25-27 if fully optimized. I don't think getting the super missile is necessary either, because botwoon can be killed with 2 pb combos and 2 super missiles instead of 6. That would only be 40 frames slower, right? That would make a visit to the pipe bugs unnecessary. Please feel free to correct me.
Well, I think your last smv was pretty optimized already. I honestly can't see where you want to save 12 more frames from it. Are you sure you didn't confuse something?
Regarding Botwoon, no, another PB combo will definitely lose more than 70 frames compared to Super Missile spamming. Also because of Botwoons very small hitbox (90% of his body is invulnerable), it's very unlikely you can get all 4 hits of the combo in without more delays when he is already fully out of his hole and moving around. The beginning of the fight is a exception, because of obvious reasons.
Hero, you seem to have misseed this:
Saturn wrote:
Well, I think your last smv was pretty optimized already. I honestly can't see where you want to save 12 more frames from it. Are you sure you didn't confuse something?
Mind telling a bit more detailed how you want to save the mentioned 12 frames from a near perfect attempt already? I wonder because it's very unlikely in my view.
Regarding Cpadolfs situation, it's a hard decision. Pipe bugs cost some time as well. Maybe a 2nd PB combo would indeed be slightly faster in the end, but it's just a too high risk to go for it, since it will be very difficult, if not impossible, to fully hit him with the 2nd combo, as said. I personally wouldn't go for it, to be on the safer side.
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1057
Location: United States
Well, I cannot really explain it other than the demo I posted was not 100% optimal. I failed to arm pump after exiting the tunnel, I failed to arm pump a few times in the previous 2 rooms. I also unmorphed slightly earlier than I needed to and lost 3 frames upon entering the door to the high jump room.
Mind telling me in detail how you improved JXQ's near perfect ceres escape by 7-9 frames? I don't expect you to answer, but I think that being open with the community will be more beneficial to everyone including yourself.
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1057
Location: United States
Just for fun I have come up with my own RBO route. I don't plan on making a run, but I think if anyone wants to try they should use this route. It is different than Saturn's because it choses to fight crocomire, while his route is a no mini boss route. I think that the grapple beam would save maridia from being a boring piece of crap to watch. The crocomire energy tank also eliminates the need to return to brinstar after collecting the speed booster.
here is the map
Here is the item list:
1. morphball
2. missile #1
3. bombs
4. energy tank #1
5. super missile #1
6. reserve tank #1
7. missile #2
8. missile #2
9. missile #4
10.power bomb #1
11.power bomb #2
12.energy tank #2
13.missile #5
14.missile #6
15.energy tank #3
16.super missile #2
17.power bomb #3
18.super missile #3
19.missile #7
20.charge beam
21.power bomb #4
22.missile #8
23.energy tank #4
24.spazer beam
25.ice beam
26.energy tank #5
27.missile #9
28.high jump boots
29.speed booster
30.missile #10
31.missile #11
32.wave beam
33.missile #12
34.reserve tank #2
35.missile #13
36.energy tank #6
37.grapple beam
38.energy tank #7
39.energy tank #8
40.missile #14
41.energy tank #9
42.missile #15
Well, I'm quite sure that with the situation I was in at the pipebugs It would have been impossible without refilling at them. If I wouldn't have I would be at 0 SM 0 PB and 5 Missile after wavebeam, that could potantialy get me 2 Supers at hijump but still no PB's, to manipulate a PB from the red creatures in the norfair shaft would bu (if even possible) very slow plus the fact that I wold have to use 2 wave combos at botwoon (if fully possible) which would slow down further. If all this where possible and executed correctly then maybe faster without the refills but I don't know.
Actually I did it with 3 round refill at first but I managed to cut it down to 2 (saved ~1.5 seconnds) by slowing down slightly at 3 later points (lost maybe 30 frames, dunno). Leaving norfari with 8 supers and 1 PB, so PB refill at the crabs are still needed but IIRC that should leave me still with 6 supers and 1 PB at botwoon (now hope he won't be a bitch like phantoon and force me to use another pause screen for 2 supers and a PB.
I think Saturn's philosophy is good if all Super Metroid runners rely on nothing but published movies for improvements. I am unsure how many people rely on published movies solely, but if it's the minority, my initial reaction is to be confused about why information is held back. But after some thinking, if it is the minority, maybe it should stay that way for balance.
Also, I could say, "The more Super Metroid runs, the better," but in the end, I think the patience spent for waiting on 'the next big SM run with a crapload of improvements' is worth it.
I think it depends on the SM runners; some people probably want any information that 'the people who hold back secrets' hold, and others are more self-sufficient. But maybe even those self-sufficient might eventually just get frustrated and stop running, or wonder why they're wasting 5 more months on something they aren't as motivated to do as last time just to implement a few more tricks that were already known by someone else.
EDIT: And while I'm at it, I just wanted to say that saying something is impossible is definitely a bad thing. Even with the latest runs, I know there are yet more improvements possible (though, this same 'hunch' of mine was much more prominent in the earlier runs, where even someone like me could tell where the runner didn't optimize something). Memory checkers and other such advanced and super-advanced tools are pretty convenient, however; so not too much time has to be dedicated to thinking of new strategies solely on your own.
Mind telling me in detail how you improved JXQ's near perfect ceres escape by 7-9 frames? I don't expect you to answer, but I think that being open with the community will be more beneficial to everyone including yourself.
Nope, it wouldn't be of any benefit for me at least. But anyway, here is how I did it in detail: I optimized the subpixel position for every door, and I manipulated luck for perfect steam by delaying some frames in the intro scene and at Ridley. The combination of this was the key. There is nothing more about it.
Regarding RBO route, I'm pretty sure getting Grapple Beam will be slower in the end. Also you get the gauntlet tank without the speedbooster, which will lose many frames there. Otherwise it looks good.
Nope, it wouldn't be of any benefit for me at least. But anyway, here is how I did it in detail: I optimized the subpixel position for every door, and I manipulated luck for perfect steam by delaying some frames in the intro scene and at Ridley. The combination of this was the key. There is nothing more about it.
Hmm? Weren't you asking me how to optimize the subpixel positions (and what did they mean at all) a couple months back? It doesn't seem like it would help anywhere compared to, say, JXQ's run, though: I've tried to optimize the pre-Ridley part with absolute precision recently (had both better subpixel position and speed at every door, much thanks to acceleration storage tech), and was held back by 2-frame door opening cycles, jumps and other events like that, impeding (or rather, nullifying) sure frame gains. I'm pretty sure the way back will show similar results; the only place where further subpixel optimization might gain a frame is at the jump in 3rd room, making it one frame earlier if possible. I will look into it when I return home.
Otherwise I'm pretty sure it's more about randomness than anything else.
On a related note, have you determined any patterns in escape counter behaviour that might be useful/manipulable somehow? Because the results I get are kinda weird in the least; for example, in the test I was talking just above I left Ridley's chamber (frame 2412, IIRC) at 59'86 while having fully matched JXQ's times at entering all the rooms (he leaves at 59'87). Seems like this logic-defiant timer can be affected by literally everything, not just timing of pressing start at the intro cutscene, entering the rooms and taking a hit from Ridley. What the hell.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
untill now i came to that point
that there are two different timers occuring from delaying frames in the intro
heres what i found until now
the timer known as jxq's:
room1: frame 2412 timer said 59'87
room2: frame 2509 timer said 58'26
room3: frame 2612 timer said 56'54
room4: frame 2777 timer said 53'79
room5: frame 2899 timer said 51'75
last room: 49'01
well thats the first timer up to know
here the one occuring from delaying frames in different ways which different amount in the intro
the weird timer:
room1: frame 2412 timer said 59'86 - lost xx'01
room2: frame 2509 timer said 58'24 - lost xx'01 here again
room3: frame 2612 timer said 56'53 - gained back xx'01 !
room4 with jxq's steam pattern: frame 2777 timer said 53'79 - gained 01 back again
room5 and the last room couldn't be tested now because iam right now not able to tie jxq's frames due some slighty changed steam things but it would be very intresting to see if the timer gained more time in the last 2 rooms..
well we see the weird second timer has some special thing in it i hope i could show you
thats for the timers in ceres i know so far
edit: so far from look at the frames and the timer at that point the weird timer in room5 says 51'78 at frame 2899(jxq's leaving frame for that room) so it gained xx'03 here !!!!(!)
and even if you lose a frame its 51'76 at frame 2900 still + xx'01
now play with your minds
I've always believed that the timer just vary between changing by 00:02 or 00:01 every frame but always adding upp to 01:00 in a cycle of 60 frames, meaning that every third frame it moves by 00:01 and vice versa. If this is true then you should only be able to get a 00:01 boost by changing which frame the counter begins on. However if a different clock time on the same frame can make steam act differently then other improvements could be made.
But doesn't the clock work like that or what?
EDIT:
moozooh wrote:
On a related note, have you determined any patterns in escape counter behaviour that might be useful/manipulable somehow? Because the results I get are kinda weird in the least; for example, in the test I was talking just above I left Ridley's chamber (frame 2412, IIRC) at 59'86 while having fully matched JXQ's times at entering all the rooms (he leaves at 59'87). Seems like this logic-defiant timer can be affected by literally everything, not just timing of pressing start at the intro cutscene, entering the rooms and taking a hit from Ridley. What the hell.
I encountered this also the first time I tried to tie with JXQ in ceres, It turned out to be so that the counter and the door openings are affected by realtime frames, at least I think so because when my intro scene was slightly slower then JXQ's I could not leave ridley's room at the same frame as him even with exactly the same subpixel positioning.
