Topic by VIPer7

Posted: 5/10/2005 7:43 PM

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VIPer7

Former player

Joined: 10/17/2004
Posts: 226
Location: Bonn, Germany

Umm, what's the difference between "finish the level" and "exit the level"?? And I think 1 extra life > 1 frame :P Don't know why the block glitch didn't work for you, I had no problems with it... Just keep the B button pressed for the exact right time

Posted: 5/11/2005 1:19 AM

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flagitious

Player (200)

Joined: 7/6/2004
Posts: 511

finish level = cross goal post exit level = screen all black This damn fadeout lag is really pissing me off, even though we have done the first 2 levels at the same speed I can't get the fadeout to be as fast no matter what I try. I try hexing out some of the jumps that grab points and tried all sorts of random stuff and nothing is getting me fadeout times as fast as Viper's and Mazzic's 11 exit wips. Hexing the stuff is a real pain because just changing the score I get in 1 level will make it desynch in the next sometimes, and usually I have to redo all the jumps in that level that were closely timed. Would it be OK if we use your guy's WIPs for the first 2 levels? I really hate to ask this but we are getting off to slow start and it is frustrating knowing I can play as fast but randomness will make me do it over again and again. We will be sure to credit you in submission if we make it that far (it just seems alot of people have started and not finished this).

g,o,p,i=1e4,a[10001];main(x){for(;p?g=g/x*p+a[p]*i+2*!o: 53^(printf("%.4d",o+g/i),p=i,o=g%i);a[p--]=g%x)x=p*2-1;}

Posted: 5/11/2005 7:00 PM

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VIPer7

Former player

Joined: 10/17/2004
Posts: 226
Location: Bonn, Germany

Ok I redid Yoshi's Island 2 and could finish it in the fastest possible time (still getting the extra life, and doing some other cool stunts with the green shell :)) So, at the beginning of Yoshi's Island 4, this is 1 frame faster than your run (and 2,000 more points) Download I hope you continue and finish this, it needs to be done, Alexis Neuhaus' run needs to be replaced :P I predict these will be the most frustrating passages: - the water jump in Yoshi's Island 4 (compare with Mazzic's run) - flying up to the key in Donut Plains 2 (I think Mazzic got it done quite well - perfectly?) - Mario's random rotation with shell in hand in Donut Secret 1 (you'll find out what I mean :P) - the random block rotations in Star Road 1 I will follow this thread and try to help whenever I can :)

Posted: 5/11/2005 7:31 PM

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Bisqwit

Editor, Active player (296)

Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 7469
Location: Arzareth

And I hope that actingwise, something better is done in Iggy's Castle than what Alexis Neuhaus did. Viper7 had the right idea.

Posted: 5/11/2005 10:16 PM

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VIPer7

Former player

Joined: 10/17/2004
Posts: 226
Location: Bonn, Germany

Oh another thing that came to my mind: you should test out if it's really needed to get the fireflower in Castle #1. The transformation animation takes ~ 30 frames, and the only place where you really profit from it is the fight against Iggy (and maybe the Secret Ghost House). I see 3 possibilities which are probably (almost) equally fast...: no fireflower at all / fireflower in castle #1, cape in ghost house / fireflower in both castle #1 and ghost house

Posted: 5/12/2005 7:01 AM

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flagitious

Player (200)

Joined: 7/6/2004
Posts: 511

1 first level done beautifully thank you so much. 2nd level and fadeouts fast too thank you thank you. I will try my best to keep the rest as high quality.

VIPer7 wrote:

I predict these will be the most frustrating passages: - the water jump in Yoshi's Island 4 (compare with Mazzic's run) - flying up to the key in Donut Plains 2 (I think Mazzic got it done quite well - perfectly?) - Mario's random rotation with shell in hand in Donut Secret 1 (you'll find out what I mean :P) - the random block rotations in Star Road 1

The water jump: I am guessing that this is difficult because sometimes mario jumps higher (faster) than others, repeating every 5 frames? So the trick is to get the fastest jump so that you are on ground again as soon as possibe? Flying key: I noticed in your 96 exit you came from above to get the key, this looks like the fastest way possible, but it might be equally as fast but much harder to come from below? Mario's random rotation: Aw it looked easy but I guess I'm in store for a shock. Random block rotations: Dang I haven't toyed with that yet but my first impression was that it was done on a timer, so I guess I'm in store for another rude awakening. About firepower. Just judging by the differences in splits it looks like the jump through stairs saves slightly over 100 frames. So it will probably save time to switch from feather and back. I haven't experiemented with skipping firepower yet, but I'll be sure to screw around with it when we get there. Oh and bisqwit don't worry we will do some good acting. Anyways thanks again for the help, I'll continue on to the water level now, but its pretty late here so I don't know how far I will get. I'll edit to add link if I get anywhere. Edit: Ok I did the level 1 frame faster than anyone but unfortunetly there was 1 frame longer fadeout :(. At the end I had to skip those 2 coins to avoid the game slowing down. I tried skipping that last yoshi coin to change the score but fadeout was still the same. It might be possible to save a frame or two more by doing avoid fadeout and even better water jump, maybe. http://wam.umd.edu/~darreon/smw_

g,o,p,i=1e4,a[10001];main(x){for(;p?g=g/x*p+a[p]*i+2*!o: 53^(printf("%.4d",o+g/i),p=i,o=g%i);a[p--]=g%x)x=p*2-1;}

Posted: 5/12/2005 2:55 PM

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VIPer7

Former player

Joined: 10/17/2004
Posts: 226
Location: Bonn, Germany

It might be possible to save a frame or two more by doing avoid fadeout and even better water jump, maybe.

hmm, how about 10 frames? :) (and 1 timeunit!) Your idea of pushing the red shell into the water was great, I just concluded it :) Voilà! @Key in Donut Plains 1: I doubt that you'll be able to fly over the pipe if you do a start from the Super Koopa (in my video I started from the ground and rose higher into the air, which actually cost a few frames, but was needed because of the green blocks). So coming from below is the way to go... and yes it is hard (unless I overlooked something...) @Mario's random rotation: You want to keep the shell in hand all the time while you're swimming forward. So you want to destroy the fish with the cape by pressing X (so you can keep the Y button pressed). Unfortunately, Mario's own rotation doesn't depend on the time when you press X, so sometimes the shell will always touch the fish before the cape, which is quite annoying (that's why I avoided 2 or 3 fish in my video) @Random block rotations: Maybe you can figure out how they work... I just did lots of hours of trial and error, and picked the best result that came out (luckily you only need to get to the key and not the goalbar :)) @Fireflower: I had a look at my old excel sheets: switching to Fireflower in Donut Secret 1 costs 49 frames (animation + you can't hit the key block with the cape). I could enter the first door in the Ghost House 97 frames faster with the Fireflower. Hitting the P-block was 8 frames slower with the Fireflower (because flying is faster than running), and the transformation animation costs another 25 frames. So overall that makes: 97-49-8-25 = 15 frames faster with Fireflower and maybe you can tweak it a little more :)

Posted: 5/12/2005 3:31 PM

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Bisqwit

Editor, Active player (296)

Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 7469
Location: Arzareth

The current progress looks excellent.

Posted: 5/12/2005 4:29 PM

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Truncated

Editor, Reviewer, Experienced player (968)

Joined: 4/17/2004
Posts: 3107
Location: Sweden

>Voilà! Way to kill our run Viper. :P At 4820 you don't do both the stomp+kick that Flagitious did. Randomness again? Other than that it's magnificent.

Posted: 5/12/2005 4:40 PM

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Saturn

Player (209)

Joined: 2/18/2005
Posts: 1451

VIPer7 wrote:

hmm, how about 10 frames? :) (and 1 timeunit!) Your idea of pushing the red shell into the water was great, I just concluded it :) Voilà!

It seems that you kill all previous records in this game. I will follow this thread more carefully now since it hopefully will be a very interesting competition between "Mario-Genius" VIPer VS flagitious and Truncated. I'm impressed with the new idea to jump of the red shell, so you don't need to fall in the water.

See my perfect 100% movie-walkthroughs of the best RPG games on http://www.freewebs.com/saturnsmovies/index.htm Current TAS project (with new videos): Super Metroid Redesign, any% speedrun

Posted: 5/12/2005 8:19 PM

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flagitious

Player (200)

Joined: 7/6/2004
Posts: 511

>Voilà! #2 , 3 frames faster than the 10 frames faster one now. Not as much of a voila but still :) 1 frame due to less slow down from star by hitting it as late as possible 1 frame due to less slow down near last yoshi coin 1 frame due to faster fadeout (had to not hit fish though) I am really happy that you managed to make that jump without landing in the water, I tried a few days ago and got so close that it really pissed me off. (I didn't know about dropping the shell while falling to move it forward). Then again I'm still kinda pissed because it was you that discovered it! The happyness outweighs the anger though because I rather have this game done super fast and beautifully by many than it done slower but from only myself. http://wam.umd.edu/~darreon/smw_/32.smv So thanks again, and I'll edit update it if I make a dent in the castle today. Edit: The pswitch can be juggled to the area after the first major fire pit, probably without too much time lost. So I am trying to figure out if I can use it to make that last jump without having to grab the fence. No dice so far, but it might be possible. Edit2: Mission accomplished! ...not sure if it actually will save time yet though. It seems when you hit a pswitch it slows your horizontal movement down a good bit, any way to avoid this? Edit3: Whoa I just discovered if you time the jump exactly right, you can double jump (full height) off a flying pswitch!

g,o,p,i=1e4,a[10001];main(x){for(;p?g=g/x*p+a[p]*i+2*!o: 53^(printf("%.4d",o+g/i),p=i,o=g%i);a[p--]=g%x)x=p*2-1;}

Posted: 5/13/2005 6:46 AM

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Mazzic

Joined: 8/31/2004
Posts: 298
Location: Falun, Sweden

I realy like what you have done with the run so far. Nice going with YI2 and YI4. I'm realy looking forward to see what you can do in the Castle. Also I like to see if you can come up with a new solution for DP1 since I had a hell getting my flying right there and hit that tiny hole. Great work so far!

Bein' away for like five years, and not a single new post in the ZSNES forum... :'-(

Posted: 5/13/2005 8:53 AM

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A_Runnelid

Joined: 4/23/2004
Posts: 150

My compliments to all involved. I am really impressed by the amount of tricks you've incorporated. This run demonstrates exactly what I want to see. Oh, and since we're on about shells.. I friend of mine saw the 96 exit run and was thoroughly impressed, but wondered why Mario wasn't carrying a shell while running. He claimed this was slightly faster than normal running speed. There isn't really any truth to his theory, is there? Andreas

Posted: 5/13/2005 9:32 AM

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flagitious

Player (200)

Joined: 7/6/2004
Posts: 511

Thanks Mazzic, and the run that you started has been a very useful reference as well. Runnelid, its the same speed as normal running. After sever thousand rerecords and many many hours I finally figured out how to get to the half way point of Iggy's castle fast. It is 35 frames faster than the others, and 54 frames faster than Alex's. http://www.wam.umd.edu/~darreon/smw_/4-halfway2.smv There is a save state there to get you to the castle fast, and also check out the 4-halfway.smv which was my first attempt which is still very interesting. I'm really happy I got this to work because I thought it was most likely impossible and that I was just wasting my time, but I had to try. Good night (5 am doh)

g,o,p,i=1e4,a[10001];main(x){for(;p?g=g/x*p+a[p]*i+2*!o: 53^(printf("%.4d",o+g/i),p=i,o=g%i);a[p--]=g%x)x=p*2-1;}

Posted: 5/13/2005 11:07 AM

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VIPer7

Former player

Joined: 10/17/2004
Posts: 226
Location: Bonn, Germany

Very well done. I don't like that you have to skip coins and the fish in YI4, but I believe you that you tested it out thoroughly and that this is the fastest possible way. Very nice idea in castle #1. I assume you had to press (<-) for 1 frame to hit the Koopa in the right way? Oh and why did you press A and B all the time before the level started? That looks just ugly in the hex code... Oh and you skipped 5 coins in favour of 600 points - are points your secondary goal? those 5 coins could provide you with an extra life in the end, who knows... ---edit--- I fixed the jump at frame 4820, doing both kick and stomp on the koopa (200 more points). This somehow caused a desynch at the water jump in Yoshi's Island 4, somehow 2 frames were lost mysteriously... So I did some trial and error and eventually made a jump that was equally fast as the one that flagitious did. However I collected 1 coin less, therefore my shell destroyed a fish (200 more points). But therefore I could collect 1 more coin before the end without causing lag (only one evil coin is left over, he would always cause 1 frame time loss - don't ask why...). Hitting the fish also didn't cost any time, so overall I killed 3 more enemies (600 points) and collected the same amount of coins (and needed exactly the same time). Castle#1 didn't cause any desynch problems :) Btw I also cleaned up the hex code a bit, now there are no "unnecessary" button presses left :) improved version

Posted: 5/13/2005 4:13 PM

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Bisqwit

Editor, Active player (296)

Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 7469
Location: Arzareth

VIPer7 wrote:

improved version

Awesome. "Aim for the impossible" wins again! Good work VIPer7 and Flagitious.

Posted: 5/13/2005 5:06 PM

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flagitious

Player (200)

Joined: 7/6/2004
Posts: 511

VIPer7 wrote:

Very well done. I don't like that you have to skip coins and the fish in YI4, but I believe you that you tested it out thoroughly and that this is the fastest possible way. Very nice idea in castle #1. I assume you had to press (<-) for 1 frame to hit the Koopa in the right way? Oh and why did you press A and B all the time before the level started? That looks just ugly in the hex code... Oh and you skipped 5 coins in favour of 600 points - are points your secondary goal? those 5 coins could provide you with an extra life in the end, who knows...

Somehow in Mazzic's WIP he gets all the coins and there is no slow down, I wasn't able to get it to work but I'm not going to spend alot of time trying to get a coin, because that time could be better spent dropping frames. The <- was actually pressed twice about 8 frames apart and it was to affect the angle the pswitch releases at. The first one was to turn him left, so that the second can be pressed while he is in the process of turning right, which drops it in the desired manner. About coins v score. Here is my 'equation' for a good movie, minimize time > all. Maximize Lives * 8000 + coins * 80 + score. But if I see an opportunity to make the movie more interesting I will accept lower score/coins/lives. About excess a+b presses. To select level I just hold A and B turbo down with offset of 1 frame. This way the level will be selected as fast as possible and it won't require and slow motion + rerecords. It isn't visible in the final video product so I figure save myself some time. Does this make it harder for you to edit the hex? If so I will stop doing that. Thanks for getting some extra score, and I'll edit if I get any further

g,o,p,i=1e4,a[10001];main(x){for(;p?g=g/x*p+a[p]*i+2*!o: 53^(printf("%.4d",o+g/i),p=i,o=g%i);a[p--]=g%x)x=p*2-1;}

Posted: 5/13/2005 5:13 PM

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VIPer7

Former player

Joined: 10/17/2004
Posts: 226
Location: Bonn, Germany

Yes it makes it a bit harder to hexedit, and like I said, it just looks ugly, unclean :P But it's not so much of a problem for me to fix it, if you're too lazy ;) But it's really not much work to enter the level at the fastest possible time. Just make a save while Mario moves on the map, and note the frame when the level name switches (for example from Yoshi's Island 3 into Yoshi's Island 4). Press B exactly 1 frame earlier, and 5 frames later (4 frames after the name changes) the screen should get blurry :)

Posted: 5/13/2005 10:05 PM

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BoltR

Former player

Joined: 8/12/2004
Posts: 651
Location: Alberta, Canada

flagitious wrote:

About excess a+b presses. To select level I just hold A and B turbo down with offset of 1 frame. This way the level will be selected as fast as possible and it won't require and slow motion + rerecords.

Not true. It's then set up to be hitting the buttons every two frames. So 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 15... are the button hits. If the game lets you enter the level on frame 12 you have lost a frame. Edit: Nevermind VIPer7 explained your logic to me.

Posted: 5/14/2005 7:44 AM

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flagitious

Player (200)

Joined: 7/6/2004
Posts: 511

To get fire power or not to, that is the question. -17 @ Iggy's castle (idealy only 13) -54 @ Water level (Viper you posted 49, I don't have that vid.) +73 @ Ghost House (including transformation back ofcouse) ------------------- +2, Fire power is 2 frames faster woot (this is conservative though). Reasoning: In iggy you lose 13 (32 to get fire power but 20 faster boss kill), but I lost 4 more from the fadeout, you can dl at here. It would be greatly appreciated if someone could help me reduce that fadeout. In water level this is based purely on Viper's 96 exit video versus Viper's test In ghost castle this is based on Viper's test versus the jump through stairs glitch and then bouncing very high off of the big ghost allowing you to switch back to cape before you enter the first door without losing any speed. file So there you have it, pretty likely that fire power is the way to go, still some uncertainty, if you want to reduce uncertainty try beating one of the following areas faster: Reducing fadeout in Iggy's castle (62.smv v 45.smv) Getting from pipe in water level to key hole with cape (viper's test) Getting from pipe in water level to key with fire power (vipers 96 exit) Getting to the first door in ghost house with cape (viper's test, this I think can actually be improved by 1 frame by spin jumping over the ghost instead of regular jumping) I am sure that all other spots are either the same in both or have been perfected already. Good night.

g,o,p,i=1e4,a[10001];main(x){for(;p?g=g/x*p+a[p]*i+2*!o: 53^(printf("%.4d",o+g/i),p=i,o=g%i);a[p--]=g%x)x=p*2-1;}

Posted: 5/14/2005 9:34 AM

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Bisqwit

Editor, Active player (296)

Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 7469
Location: Arzareth

BoltR wrote:

Edit: Nevermind VIPer7 explained your logic to me.

Would you like to explain it to everyone here so that VIPer7 doesn't need to explain it privately to everyone in turn?

Posted: 5/14/2005 12:54 PM

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BoltR

Former player

Joined: 8/12/2004
Posts: 651
Location: Alberta, Canada

He has one button being hit on the even frames, and the other on the odd. Example: A is pressed: 35,37,39,41,43,45,47 B is pressed: 36,38,40,42,44,46,48 This means that there is a button being pressed on every frame. Obviously this will only work if more than one button with trigger the desired event.

Posted: 5/14/2005 1:41 PM

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VIPer7

Former player

Joined: 10/17/2004
Posts: 226
Location: Bonn, Germany

-54 @ Water level (Viper you posted 49, I don't have that vid.)

Hmm don't know where I got that number from. I compared the videos again, and yes in the cape video the key is put into the hole 54 faster than in the fireflower video, however the fadeout takes 4 frames longer. So that makes 50 frames difference, maybe the 49 was just a little inaccurate? Don't know

I am sure that all other spots are either the same in both or have been perfected already.

Sorry to prove you wrong, but I improved your ghost house with fireflower by another 3 frames. Nice idea of getting the cape earlier, but then you should also use it! Remember, flying is faster than running! The sliding on the ground was unavoidable, but didn't cost any time. Also note that Mario is partly flying through the stairs (releasing Y in the right frame would result in Mario falling down). Maybe you can test this a bit more, maybe the fireflower is not needed after all?? You were right about the ghost house with cape, I could improve it by 1 frame. Could have been a bit more maybe, but Mario must not touch that trampoline, as it slows him down seriously. Here are the videos of Donut Secret 1 + Donut Secret House to compare: Fireflower (door entered at 3399) Cape (door entered at 3425 - but 4 frames lost in DS1 fadeout)

Posted: 5/14/2005 4:59 PM

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flagitious

Player (200)

Joined: 7/6/2004
Posts: 511

BoltR wrote:

He has one button being hit on the even frames, and the other on the odd.

much clearer than my explanation. This saved me an butt load of time in zelda (I admit I recorded the text scrolling parts of the game in fast motion eheheh) Viper no need to apologize, thanks for beating that 3 frames faster, so total is up to 4 frames now. Also watching that I think teaches us why the going through the stairs works, the only requirement is that you aren't going downwards as you pass (I think, I will test this now). BTW I don't think we should count that 4 frames lost in water level fadeout because it will most likely be different when we get there, and also hopefully we can effect the 4 frame in iggy's castle too.

g,o,p,i=1e4,a[10001];main(x){for(;p?g=g/x*p+a[p]*i+2*!o: 53^(printf("%.4d",o+g/i),p=i,o=g%i);a[p--]=g%x)x=p*2-1;}

Posted: 5/14/2005 8:44 PM

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nitsuja

Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1300)

Joined: 12/21/2004
Posts: 2687

BoltR wrote:

He has one button being hit on the even frames, and the other on the odd.

BTW, because there are 2 jump buttons in this game, you can use that technique with alternating A and B (while holding up) to swim upward even faster. I didn't notice any places where underwater upward motion was a limiting factor, though, so that probably won't save any time.