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Posted: 10/18/2004 4:00 AM
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Michael_Fried
Former player
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 1107
I vote for keeping it. Why not just throw the P-switch onto the right side and then land on the left side?
Posted: 10/18/2004 5:00 AM
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Kyrsimys
Former player
Joined: 4/16/2004
Posts: 1286
Location: Finland
I don't know if you've corrected this already but the route for Donut Ghost House (normal exit) you use in the .smv you posted is needlessly long. When you enter the room with the stairs and the single block you can just start running and fly up to the door, you don't need to go through all the doors first.
Posted: 10/18/2004 9:25 AM
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VIPer7
Former player
Joined: 10/17/2004
Posts: 226
Location: Bonn, Germany
@Dan_: I doubt you could do Tubular without either feather or blue yoshi, and in Star World 1 you need to get the mushroom to be able to smash the blocks, so you'd have to go lose it somewhere before starting the next level. Can't think of any other levels where powerups are absolutely needed, but in general feather is almost always faster, and therefore needed to achieve the absolutely best possible time. --- edit: I just did Tubular with small Mario, it IS possible (and so is Chocolate Island 2 secret, I just did it within 29 seconds as small Mario). Nevertheless the problem with Star World 1 stays, you can't get rid of the mushroom before putting the key into the hole :P --- @Michael Fried & Bisqwit: I think I now got the optimum times in the levels I redid so far. I had a close look at both Alexix Neuhaus' and Volkov's movies, and I think I actually improved their time in castle #1 a bit by spending less time climbing on the fence (I managed to jump below the flame). In the levels where I had no comparison, I first did a speedrun without doing any extra jumps for coins or enemies, and then did the same run with hitting as many coins and enemies as possible but finishing in the exact same frame time (once Mario is running it doesn't matter whether you're on the ground or in the air, at least without the feather). Concerning the switch palaces: I did the yellow one simply keeping the p-block in Mario's hands, and the green one throwing the p-block on the big switch block and then jumping left next to it (like Michael suggested). Maybe I can try to do things a bit different in the red and blue ones. @Kyrsimys: Thanks a lot for the hint, I didn't know that... *feels stupid* Now I'm already more than 1000 frames faster than in my first run :)
Posted: 10/18/2004 11:26 AM
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pilif
Joined: 6/15/2004
Posts: 104
Location: Zürich / Switzerland
Hi,
Avin wrote:
Actually... there is the case in SMW of the level in world 6 that requires you to get through the first two sections in under 30 seconds or so, and I don't know if it's possible to do that without a cape
it certainly is possible als I do this level always without the cape. Keyword: Happy-Turtle-Jumping ;-) Anyway I think the run looks better without getting hit on purpose just because of policy, so, VIPer7, just continue like your are doing now. Your preview did look quite well already, so keep up! Philip
Posted: 10/18/2004 7:13 PM
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Michael_Fried
Former player
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 1107
@Dan_: I doubt you could do Tubular without either feather or blue yoshi, and in Star World 1 you need to get the mushroom to be able to smash the blocks, so you'd have to go lose it somewhere before starting the next level. Can't think of any other levels where powerups are absolutely needed, but in general feather is almost always faster, and therefore needed to achieve the absolutely best possible time. Can't you just use the P-balloon to beat Tubular? However, as I already said, starting and ending with small Mario is just stupid, and the fastest way to beat Tubular is to ignore the P-balloon. Concerning the switch palaces: I did the yellow one simply keeping the p-block in Mario's hands, and the green one throwing the p-block on the big switch block and then jumping left next to it (like Michael suggested). I'm not sure, but letting go of B to throw the P-switch might slow you down, so you should keep the frame counter on and try both methods to see if there's a difference in time. Btw, are you going to upload your new smv to make sure you didn't miss any time saving tricks and that you fixed all the mistakes in your first version or are you going to wait until you finish the whole thing?
Posted: 10/18/2004 8:25 PM
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VIPer7
Former player
Joined: 10/17/2004
Posts: 226
Location: Bonn, Germany
looks like both pilif and Michael didn't read what I wrote in the ---edit--- part ;) - yes, both Tubular and Chocolate Island 2 are possible starting and ending with small Mario, but nevertheless the feather is almost always faster so I will continue using it I did a frame check on the p-block throw, it doesn't make a difference because the feather slows down my jump a bit anyway You can have a look at my new smv here. Right now I'm once again stuck in the 2nd castle, I just can't manage to be as fast as Bisquit :( Ah well, try, try and try again...
Posted: 10/18/2004 9:02 PM
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Kyrsimys
Former player
Joined: 4/16/2004
Posts: 1286
Location: Finland
In Yoshi's Island 2 you fall off the first platform (with the red koopas) instead of jumping. This causes you to slow down and it looks really sloppy. Never run off platforms, use the jump button. Other than that, the new smv looks great and I really like your style. Keep up the good work!
Posted: 10/18/2004 9:12 PM
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VIPer7
Former player
Joined: 10/17/2004
Posts: 226
Location: Bonn, Germany
damn, you're right. I only concentrated on hitting the 2 blocks at once, and didn't notice the slowdown, as I still finished the level in 360 :( noooo, I'm not gonna do all that again a 3rd time... argh
Posted: 10/18/2004 9:16 PM
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Kyrsimys
Former player
Joined: 4/16/2004
Posts: 1286
Location: Finland
Don't give up so easily! The best solution is to upload and post new smvs frequently so that we can make suggestions and correct mistakes.
Posted: 10/18/2004 9:19 PM
(Edited: 10/18/2004 11:18 PM)
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VIPer7
Former player
Joined: 10/17/2004
Posts: 226
Location: Bonn, Germany
I will continue, but I won't do all 13 levels again because there was a 20 frames mistake (I compared it with the ideal pure jump+run time) in the first one, sorry. Gotta give somebody motivation to beat me, once I'm done with the movie ;) --- edit --- damn, you got me... the urge to be perfect is just too big :P so tomorrow I'll start it again for a 3rd time, and now really the last time!! Here is a list of improvements that I'll do in my 3rd and final version, feel free to add anything you want - move on the world map + enter levels at 1000 ms emulated frame time (xxx frames faster) - not hit the very first enemy in Yoshi's Island 1 (2-3 frames faster) - stomp on both P-block and yellow switch (~20 frames slower, but more entertaining - Bisquit voted for keeping it) - no slowdown after the red koopas in Yoshi's Island 2 (~20 frames faster) - stomp the football chuck at the end of Yoshi's Island 2 (same speed and coins, but more points + entertainment) - collect 1 more coin, hit 1 more koopa and a fireflower block in Yoshi's Island 3 - get out of the water faster in Yoshi's Island 4 (~5 frames faster) - try to jump on a few more super koopas in Donot Plains 1 (same speed, but more points + entertainment) - try to optimize the part before putting the key into the hole in Donot Plains 2 (~5 frames faster maybe?) - try to optimize the part before entering the 2nd door in Donot Ghost house (~ 5 frames faster maybe?) - try to collect 2 more coins above the clouds in Donot Plains 3 - try to optimize the part before entering the first pipe in castle #2 (~5 frames maybe?) - and finally manage the stupid passage which made me start this thread 32 hours ago :P btw here is the route that I plan to take on the world map after finishing castle #2: - finish Vanilla Dome the normal way (inclusive red switch palast) - Cheese Bridge up to castle #4, but then go back to Soda Lake - finish the Star Worlds completely (only 3 unforced movements needed) - finish the Special World, go back to Yoshi's House - finish all Donut Plains secrets - finish all Vanilla Dome secrets, Butter Bridge, and castle #4 - finish the whole Forest of Illustions (not yet sure about the ideal route here) - finish the whole Chocolate Island (also not sure about the ideal route here) - Sunken Ghost Ship, Valley of Bowser normal way - at the end Valley Fortress and then enter Bowser's castle through the Back Door any objections / improvements? I know that I'll play more than half of the game with the changed "special" graphics, which some people might not like, but I think doing the Special World later would only lead to more world map movements
Posted: 10/18/2004 11:16 PM
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Michael_Fried
Former player
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 1107
I just can't manage to be as fast as Bisquit What's the problem? Just play perfectly. That's what save states and slow motion are for. What speed are you playing at? stomp on both P-block and yellow switch (~20 frames slower, but more entertaining - Bisquit voted for keeping it) I vote for not keeping it. It looks sloppy and like you were just careless, and jumping as close to the top left corner as possible is faster and looks cooler. Even Bisqwit said that you shouldn't do unnecessary actions, and stepping on the P-switch in that room doesn't do anything. Maybe what you could do is throw the P-switch up just before you step on the switch, that might look, or even better throw it up way before the switch, then jump and land on the P-switch as it comes down (while still going right at full speed) and bounce off it and land as close to the left edge of the switch as possible. I'm not sure if this would be possible but it would look very cool. Edit: Never mind, it's not possible, so just throw it up before landing on the switch, and get it to land in the exact same spot in the box of text every time, that would look cool. Edit 2: On second thought, you can stick with throwing the P-switch on the right side then jumping on the left side, that looks pretty cool, but definitely stay away from throwing away those 20 frames. Edit 3: You can get to the door in Donut ghost house at 285. Fly up on the left side of the platform.
Posted: 10/18/2004 11:46 PM
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VIPer7
Former player
Joined: 10/17/2004
Posts: 226
Location: Bonn, Germany
I just played around with it a bit, as long as the Y-Button is pressed, Mario will not stomp on the P-Block, but just pick it up again. So in order to jump on the block, I'd have to release Y and slow down... But I think I can just kick the P-Block in front of me all the time while running through the switch palace without losing time (just releasing Y for 1 single frame to kick the block), so that would be some entertainment as well :) but now it's bedtime, maybe I can come up with another idea tomorrow :) ah thanx for the hint, I understand, run forward and then backward, just like before flying to the secret exit (btw I love that part where Mario flies kamikaze all the way down and then enters the door at full speed)
Posted: 10/18/2004 11:48 PM
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Bisqwit
Editor, Active player (296)
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 7469
Location: Arzareth
VIPer7 wrote:
Right now I'm once again stuck in the 2nd castle, I just can't manage to be as fast as Bisquit :( Ah well, try, try and try again...
You just need to eliminate the time Mario is going to the wrong direction. That particular scene contains lots of jumping left, jumping right, jumping left, jumping right. What I did is that I jumped left, but aimed for three goals: 1. making as small jump as possible (no excess vertical curve), 2. hitting the floor as early as possible (no excess horizontal movement) and 3. having as fast deacceleration as possible (reducing the time needed to turn around). This means that for most of jumps, you should start pressing to the opposite direction before you even land. For the higher jump (at the question sign blocks), you can't brake too early or the jump is too flat, but you have to find the smallest possible speed you still can reach it. Also, in the beginning, it is important to break Mario's flying as soon as he has reached the upper floor in the beginning, in order to be able to walk&jump as soon as possible. Nothing of what I just mentioned was new: I have hoped you understood it from my previous words.
Posted: 10/19/2004 12:09 AM
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VIPer7
Former player
Joined: 10/17/2004
Posts: 226
Location: Bonn, Germany
yeah I already managed to get to the 3rd last jump with full speed, but then I thought about it and decided to start the whole video from scratch again, so I stopped trying because I'd have to do that passage again anyway btw here is a video of the yellow switch palace kicking the p-block around without losing any time, I hope you like it :) but now it's really time to go to bed, my head is so dizzy from playing slow-mo all the time :S
Posted: 10/19/2004 12:29 AM
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Michael_Fried
Former player
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 1107
Are you sure doing that doesn't waste a few frames? Anyway, even if it doesn't I don't think it looks cooler than just running. Maybe there's some glitch you can do like getting the P-switch stuck in the pipe (though I don't know if this is possible, it's just an idea).
Posted: 10/19/2004 1:36 PM
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VIPer7
Former player
Joined: 10/17/2004
Posts: 226
Location: Bonn, Germany
Ok I just did the first 3 levels of my new (and last!) version of the video, you can download it here Yoshi's Island 1: Jumped over the first enemy (saving a few frames), but jumped on one more dinosaur (so in the end I have the same points score). The football chuck at the end acted a bit different this time, but I think it looks even cooler now Yellow Switch Palace: Kicked the P-Block 3 times in the first room and 2 times in the 2nd, then threw it on the yellow switch while stepping on it simultaneously, so now it's a cool ending picture. I stopped the frames, kicking the P-Block doesn't waste any time at all Yoshi's Island 2: Corrected the slowdown at the start, and jumped against the P-Block before the end. Jumping on the football chuck would have cost me 2 more frames... I now have the exact same frame count as Alexis Neuhaus in this level, and improved my old video by 30 frames already. I would say it's "perfect" so far :) I will continue playing later today, and update the video after each level.
Posted: 10/19/2004 1:45 PM
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TNSe
Emulator Coder
Joined: 10/9/2004
Posts: 453
Location: Norway
Hehe, a good start on a VERY long game :)
Posted: 10/19/2004 11:10 PM
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VIPer7
Former player
Joined: 10/17/2004
Posts: 226
Location: Bonn, Germany
watched Champion's League, so I only added one more level tonight. just click the link above, I updated it. Yoshi's Island 3: collected 3 more coins and jumped on 1 more koopa. exactly the same frame count as Alexis Neuhaus, 33 frames faster than my old video now. ---edit--- one more level done, video link is updated: Yoshi's Island 4: collected 1 more coin at the start, but did not jump against the star, because that only slowed me down for the next jump into the water. I also tried out the alternative route above the screen, but the problem was that I couldn't get enough speed before jumping on the first !-box, so I had to go forward->backward->forward at the start to get enough speed, and so in the end I only lost time using this "shortcut". so now I ended up with exactly the same frame count as Alexis Neuhaus, and I'm already 55 frames faster than my old video at this position
Posted: 10/20/2004 3:50 PM
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Mazzic
Joined: 8/31/2004
Posts: 298
Location: Falun, Sweden
Actually, you can be faster then Alexis Neuhaus on Yoshi's Island 3, all you have to do is stay on each swin for as long time as possible. To do this you can almost run in the air 'cause the swings reach abit out of their grafic.
Bein' away for like five years, and not a single new post in the ZSNES forum... :'-(
Posted: 10/20/2004 7:01 PM
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VIPer7
Former player
Joined: 10/17/2004
Posts: 226
Location: Bonn, Germany
Can you please explain to me how exactly to perform this? I've seen it in Volkov's run, where he is 1 frame faster than Alexis and me, but I've tried it myself at least 100 times, even on 1000 ms emulated frame time, but I can't succeed it. Either I jump too early, or if I press B just 1 single frame later, I fall off the platform. Are there some other special buttons that need to be payed attention to?? (right and Y are pressed all the time of course)
Posted: 10/20/2004 7:20 PM
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Mazzic
Joined: 8/31/2004
Posts: 298
Location: Falun, Sweden
The thing is that the longer you run un a platform the faster you'll move forward. What you need to do is too land as close to the left end as possible and jump as late as possible.On some of the platforms you can acctualy get up on the left side though you are below it. My latest movie of SMW using warps (which is not finished) is available at http://www.geocities.com/mahabadama/smw.zip I use it there sometimes, there you can also see the !-block glich that's quite cool. Edit: It also shows a wall-jump trick in Iggy's castle that I think you might find interesting. It saves some frames (3 I think) in the "long lava pit jump"
Bein' away for like five years, and not a single new post in the ZSNES forum... :'-(
Posted: 10/20/2004 8:25 PM
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VIPer7
Former player
Joined: 10/17/2004
Posts: 226
Location: Bonn, Germany
ok I had a look at your video, you are exactly 1 frame faster than me and Alexis in Yoshi's Island 3 (and already 3 frames ahead of Alexis at the start, gotta find out if those come from Yoshi's Island 2 or faster movement on the world map...). Anyway, thanx for the video, I'll try to find out what exactly you do different, I *think* it's the jump from the 2nd to the 3rd moving platform. The walljump-trick looks good, I'll try that out. But if you're still serious about your video, you should redo the castle #1, because you lose about 20 frames with unnecessary climbing at the first fence. You can do one long jump below the flame instead, have a look at my 2nd video how I do it. Apart from that, very nice video, I especially like your jumping in Yoshi's Island 4 :)
Posted: 10/21/2004 1:33 PM
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Mazzic
Joined: 8/31/2004
Posts: 298
Location: Falun, Sweden
I've seen your version of the castle and yeah, I'm gonna redo it after I've seen how you do, and the 3 frames in the beginning is from the opening text which can bee done quite fast (faster then Alexis that is)
Bein' away for like five years, and not a single new post in the ZSNES forum... :'-(
Posted: 10/21/2004 2:00 PM
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VIPer7
Former player
Joined: 10/17/2004
Posts: 226
Location: Bonn, Germany
A new version of my video is uploaded: Yoshi's Island 3: 1 frame faster than Alexis Neuhaus, same time as Mazzic Yoshi's Island 4: same time as Alexis Neuhaus, 2 frames faster than Mazzic Castle #1: 19 frames faster than Alexis Neuhaus, 17 frames faster than Mazzic. this is because I waste less time climbing on the first fence; the wall-jump trick after the long lava jump brings no time at all, I think it actually costs 1 frame (Mazzic you were faster than Alexis because you entered the castle quicker at the start) Donut Plains 1: I figured out that jumping on the first super koopa and then flying through the whole level is faster than just run and jump with the fireflower (if the flying is done correct!). So now I'm 23 frames faster than my old run in this level, and about the same time as Alexis (can't say exactly, because he doesn't finish into the normal goal - I just compared at certain "checkpoints"). I also collected 1 UP by hitting so many super koopas during the flight (without losing time!) and also collected several coins that were "invisible" above the screen. Overall I am already 99 frames faster than my old run at this point :) PS: Is anybody actually reading this? I guess by just editing my old post, nobody sees that there have been daily updates on this thread... :S I'm just used to this by other boards that you shouldn't make a new post, if you were the last one who posted in that thread... guess I'll make a TTT tomorrow if nobody has answered by then
Posted: 10/26/2004 10:30 PM
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VIPer7
Former player
Joined: 10/17/2004
Posts: 226
Location: Bonn, Germany
taking the risk of looking like an attention-seeking child, I'll TTT my own thread now :P I did 2 more levels today, you can download the newest version of my video here Donut Plains 2: Alexis didn't play this level, so I could only compare to my old time now. I improved it by 63 frames, because of a few things: I already had the feather from DP1, so I didn't have to pick it up this time; I entered the green tube a few frames earlier (I tried to improve this passage a lot by jumping from the green bat to the tube, but that just wouldn't work, no matter how I did it...); I started flying a bit earlier in the last passage and thus entered the keyhole earlier Green Switch Palace: the "kick-and-rush" thing which I did in the yellow palace doesn't work anymore with feather, but it would have been boring to do it again anyway. So this time I just "walked the ceiling" for a long time, which looks pretty cool imo. I also was 4 frames faster by kicking the red koopa instead of jumping over it. Overall I'm now 182 frames faster than my old video at this position :) Comments are welcome :)
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