Posted: 2/21/2007 9:25 PM
Post subject: Yet another (the last, I hope) topic about unranked runs
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pirate_sephiroth
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New systems TAS of 2009
You know... it's obvious that it'll never be defined what is a concept demo, and most people don't really like the way some runs are treated. I'd suggest that there should be 2 main cathegories: one for "normal" runs (where the game script is followed, i.e. beginning - middle - end), and another for "broken" runs (like zelda alltp, cv:cotm, cv:hod-maxim or the weird smb "-1 world" and so on) where the game is finished, but in any different fashion. The "abuse programming errors" doesn't say too much, you know... and the concept thing should be reserved for hacks. I hope I'm not making another useless topic, like the previous ones.
"Genuine self-esteem, however, consists not of causeless feelings, but of certain knowledge about yourself. It rests on the conviction that you — by your choices, effort and actions — have made yourself into the kind of person able to deal with reality. It is the conviction — based on the evidence of your own volitional functioning — that you are fundamentally able to succeed in life and, therefore, are deserving of that success." - Onkar Ghate
Bisqwit wrote:
Drama, too long, didn't read, lol.
Posted: 2/21/2007 9:29 PM
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moozooh
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The problem is that there's still no solid definition for being broken. Like, a normal AoS run skips two bosses, and isn't broken. Your HoD Maxim run skips all bosses and is broken. What about your AoS run then? What about Megaman 1?
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Posted: 2/21/2007 9:33 PM
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pirate_sephiroth
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New systems TAS of 2009
Well, if it skips any essential part of the game, or ends with a crash, or uses passwords, or sram whatever. If it's not beggining-middle-ending, it's broken. EDIT: of course, broken might not be the correct word. heheh
"Genuine self-esteem, however, consists not of causeless feelings, but of certain knowledge about yourself. It rests on the conviction that you — by your choices, effort and actions — have made yourself into the kind of person able to deal with reality. It is the conviction — based on the evidence of your own volitional functioning — that you are fundamentally able to succeed in life and, therefore, are deserving of that success." - Onkar Ghate
Bisqwit wrote:
Drama, too long, didn't read, lol.
Posted: 2/21/2007 9:36 PM
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moozooh
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pirate_sephiroth wrote:
Well, if it skips any essential part of the game, or ends with a crash, or uses passwords, or sram whatever. If it's not beggining-middle-ending, it's broken.
Then we should define essential and middle.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Posted: 2/21/2007 9:40 PM
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pirate_sephiroth
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New systems TAS of 2009
like, if it makes the game uncoherent for anyone who have never played it. like killing an enemy and after a few minutes finding him in a cutscene.
"Genuine self-esteem, however, consists not of causeless feelings, but of certain knowledge about yourself. It rests on the conviction that you — by your choices, effort and actions — have made yourself into the kind of person able to deal with reality. It is the conviction — based on the evidence of your own volitional functioning — that you are fundamentally able to succeed in life and, therefore, are deserving of that success." - Onkar Ghate
Bisqwit wrote:
Drama, too long, didn't read, lol.
Posted: 2/21/2007 9:44 PM
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moozooh
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pirate_sephiroth wrote:
like, if it makes the game uncoherent for anyone who have never played it.
That's… certainly not the best way to define anything.
pirate_sephiroth wrote:
like killing an enemy and after a few minutes finding him in a cutscene.
Would even smallest sequence breaks and skips qualify then?
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Posted: 2/21/2007 9:46 PM
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Xkeeper
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I just define it as "a concept demo is only a movie that aims to show something without speed generally in mind". Whoever's movie of SMB3 that involved a lot of amusing glitch abuse to do really odd things and die in a Mushroom house would fit in this category. I think trying to define "essential" and "broken" and such just rediculously overcomplicates matters.
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Posted: 2/21/2007 9:47 PM
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pirate_sephiroth
Active player (308)
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New systems TAS of 2009
a speedrun "without speed generally in mind"?????
"Genuine self-esteem, however, consists not of causeless feelings, but of certain knowledge about yourself. It rests on the conviction that you — by your choices, effort and actions — have made yourself into the kind of person able to deal with reality. It is the conviction — based on the evidence of your own volitional functioning — that you are fundamentally able to succeed in life and, therefore, are deserving of that success." - Onkar Ghate
Bisqwit wrote:
Drama, too long, didn't read, lol.
Posted: 2/21/2007 9:50 PM
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zefiris
Joined: 4/11/2006
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Location: North of Russia :[
Let's see. For example we have glitch that lets us warp anywhere. So, here we go, warp to the final boss and finish the game. Is this run "broken"? Of course it is. It does not go to the "middle". Okay then, let us first warp to some easy boss in the middle of the game, kill him and then go for final boss. Now the run is "unbroken"? No, it is not. It does not play even one stage! Okay then let's choose shortest stage and beat it to meet this condition... Any other condition?.. Well, You won't make it that strict that this glitch is absolutely useless, will you? And where'll be dividing line between enough played and too much skipped?.. It's a bit oversimplified example of what happen when you strictly define what is full run and what is not...
Posted: 2/21/2007 9:50 PM
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pirate_sephiroth
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New systems TAS of 2009
moozooh wrote:
Would even smallest sequence breaks and skips qualify then?
Well, I didn't think too deeply about this, but only if it's big enough to make the viewer confuse enough to say "why the f*** did this happen?"
"Genuine self-esteem, however, consists not of causeless feelings, but of certain knowledge about yourself. It rests on the conviction that you — by your choices, effort and actions — have made yourself into the kind of person able to deal with reality. It is the conviction — based on the evidence of your own volitional functioning — that you are fundamentally able to succeed in life and, therefore, are deserving of that success." - Onkar Ghate
Bisqwit wrote:
Drama, too long, didn't read, lol.
Posted: 2/21/2007 9:53 PM
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pirate_sephiroth
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New systems TAS of 2009
for example, if it's a megaman game. if there was a way to skip the levels and warp directly to the bosses, it wouldn't break anything, because the bosses are the essential part of the game. the abilities are not, I guess.
"Genuine self-esteem, however, consists not of causeless feelings, but of certain knowledge about yourself. It rests on the conviction that you — by your choices, effort and actions — have made yourself into the kind of person able to deal with reality. It is the conviction — based on the evidence of your own volitional functioning — that you are fundamentally able to succeed in life and, therefore, are deserving of that success." - Onkar Ghate
Bisqwit wrote:
Drama, too long, didn't read, lol.
Posted: 2/21/2007 9:54 PM
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Xkeeper
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pirate_sephiroth wrote:
a speedrun "without speed generally in mind"?????
tool-assisted superplay movies
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Posted: 2/21/2007 10:02 PM
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pirate_sephiroth
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New systems TAS of 2009
oh, hah... yeah anyway... the air conditioner is kiliing me. I'l think about that later...
"Genuine self-esteem, however, consists not of causeless feelings, but of certain knowledge about yourself. It rests on the conviction that you — by your choices, effort and actions — have made yourself into the kind of person able to deal with reality. It is the conviction — based on the evidence of your own volitional functioning — that you are fundamentally able to succeed in life and, therefore, are deserving of that success." - Onkar Ghate
Bisqwit wrote:
Drama, too long, didn't read, lol.
Posted: 2/21/2007 11:27 PM
(Edited: 4/24/2007 11:47 PM)
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Deep_Loner
Joined: 12/26/2006
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This debate is never going to go away. Never. I say that we leave the "Concept Demos/Other" category alone, and choose what goes in there on a movie-by-movie basis. If anyone asks for the specific definition of a "Concept Demo" or "Other", we can reply that the movies are chosen on a case-by-case basis, and that the final authority rests with the judges and administrators of the site. That keeps things simple, no?
Posted: 2/22/2007 12:12 AM
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JXQ
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NES TAS of 2008 Speedy TAS of 2008 SNES TASer of 2007 TAS of 2007 SNES TAS of 2007 Funny TAS of 2007
I'm still curious as to why the dual run has been decided to not be a concept demo. Anyway, implementing tub's idea would solve this dilemma, and a bunch of other ones too. Hopefully it will come to reality when given time.
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
Posted: 2/22/2007 12:49 PM
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pirate_sephiroth
Active player (308)
Joined: 2/28/2006
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New systems TAS of 2009
Anyway, I started this thread with the purpose of making some kind of brainstorm. Which means that certain expressions, such as "it's not going to work", "it's not possible" or "someone already tried that before" are forbidden. People should expose their ideas without criticizing anyone else.
"Genuine self-esteem, however, consists not of causeless feelings, but of certain knowledge about yourself. It rests on the conviction that you — by your choices, effort and actions — have made yourself into the kind of person able to deal with reality. It is the conviction — based on the evidence of your own volitional functioning — that you are fundamentally able to succeed in life and, therefore, are deserving of that success." - Onkar Ghate
Bisqwit wrote:
Drama, too long, didn't read, lol.
Posted: 2/25/2007 6:24 AM
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Chamale
He/Him
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Defining broken with certain standards is like telling a computer to judge beauty. It can't really work. So we need a human to decide the line between broken and whole.