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Posted: 3/4/2007 11:12 PM
(Edited: 3/8/2007 3:18 PM)
Post subject: Project: TASing tutorials
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zefiris
Joined: 4/11/2006
Posts: 487
Location: North of Russia :[
Now when this idea popped up, I decided to make topic for it ^^ Original thread Yes, I know that it will be one more dead project, but still, let's dream about it a bit ^^ zefiris's dream starts here I can see it as series of video files with screen recordings uring tasing with all needed commentaries at some stop-frames. It would be useful not only to new people around, but and for some of us who are only used to one or two emulators. Planned table of contents: Basic Things: - Game selection (are you picking popular game, fast paced game, or game that's already published? = good to go) - Review your completed run (Anything improvable might be spotted - Yeah I know I have bad habit!) - Be aware of your game (play it normally, look up guide on beating game, 100% game, hidden stuff, find your own glitch, L+R, U+D, all that) Basic TASing skills: - Slowdown (how and why, with movies for different emulators by people who are used to it) - Frame advance (same here and on) - Rerecording - Rewinding - Autohold and autofire - 2 player tasing Advanced TASing skills - Finding routes (with examples~) - Abusing glitches (When it's good, when it's too much) - Menu browsing (we still see improvements because of advanced menu, huh?) - Optimizing way (with some good examples of bad (normal-play), good (normal-speedrun-play) and best (TAS) ways. I can think of some already) - Choosing objectives for your run - What to do if I have to wait?.. (Don't stand still... unless you are locked in a 5x5px room) - Effective usage of savestate slots ^^ Even more advanced skills: - Hex editing and other external editing - Watching memory - Subpixel positioning - Using debugger/disassembler to understand some things I can do some of those using snagit for recording and vegas for montage... I'll see what it will result into... I hope I will do it ^^
Posted: 3/4/2007 11:15 PM
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arkiandruski
Reviewer, Active player (277)
Joined: 12/14/2006
Posts: 717
Sega TASer of 2018
I'm all for this. I've read the FAQ's, but had to figure out most of it on my own. I still don't know how to use memory watch. I'd be very grateful to any body who'd be willing to do this.
My favorite movies
Posted: 3/4/2007 11:18 PM
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Bisqwit
Editor, Active player (296)
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 7469
Location: Arzareth
Very good outline, Zefiris. I would like to make such a tutorial with video camera or something, but screenrecording + voiceover would probably suffice as well. The key is editing.
Posted: 3/4/2007 11:35 PM
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Maximus
Emulator Coder, Former player
Joined: 10/2/2005
Posts: 563
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Doing a video is definitely a good idea. However, voiceover would likely only benefit the English-speaking community here (which is the vast majority I know). It might be more useful to have subtitles for additional instructions, as this would allow for easier multilingual support. Though the concepts are universal (as far as TASing best-practices ... so to speak), it might also be useful to have videos for each emulator, as the toolsets differ.
TAS Movie Editor v0-12-1 http://sourceforge.net/projects/tas-editor
Posted: 3/4/2007 11:41 PM
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zefiris
Joined: 4/11/2006
Posts: 487
Location: North of Russia :[
I am with subs too for now. Well, as soon as I install XP back (I expect it to be tomorrow) I'll make a demo of what I have in mind.
Maximus wrote:
Though the concepts are universal (as far as TASing best-practices ... so to speak), it might also be useful to have videos for each emulator, as the toolsets differ.
It's part of a plan ^^ By the way, you reminded me that I forgot to mention hex-editing and movie editors ^^
Posted: 3/5/2007 12:33 AM
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ZeXr0
Joined: 8/27/2006
Posts: 883
You could do several little video. It would be better so that some people could only watch the topic they want.
Posted: 3/5/2007 1:22 AM
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Inzult
Active player (422)
Joined: 9/27/2004
Posts: 650
Location: Canada
NES TAS of 2021
I still intend on doccumenting, at least partially, my next run with my DV camera. You know, if I ever find some free time.
Posted: 3/5/2007 1:36 AM
Post subject: Re: Project: TASing tutorials
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Blublu
Player (67)
Joined: 3/11/2004
Posts: 1058
Location: Reykjaví­k, Ísland
zefiris wrote:
- Abusing glitches (When it's good, when it's too much)
... Is there even such a thing as too much glitch abuse? I mean even games like Rygar and AlttP have runs with as much glitch abuse as possible. Yes, a tutorial like that would be helpful to many people, and might bring us some more expert TASers, so that would be a very good thing.
Posted: 3/5/2007 2:56 AM
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arkiandruski
Reviewer, Active player (277)
Joined: 12/14/2006
Posts: 717
Sega TASer of 2018
Sometimes, such as when the glitching causes the veiwer to just watch the screen scrolling for long periods of time it gets boring because you can't see anything happening. It may be faster, but it's not as exciting. I still think completely glitched-out runs should be published on this site, but like with ALttP and Rygar, sometimes it's better to see the run without the glitches.
My favorite movies
Posted: 3/5/2007 10:55 AM
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Tragedy
Joined: 11/13/2006
Posts: 87
Location: California, USA
Y'know, making a visual TAS tutorial wouldn't be so hard... All you need is a couple videos, some pictures, and a voiceover. I may not be Johnny TASMaster or anything, but I know the basics, and what the noobs need are the basics. I'LL DO IT. EDIT: WHOA POST MOVE. Thanks ^_^ I've also started to begin working on a small video. Call it a fullspeed test run if you will ^_^ Once I get more advanced equipment, I'll do something a lot better.
If you see me posting, I'm most likely being a douche. <small>Working on: not ever coming here again</small>
Posted: 3/7/2007 7:14 PM
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ventuz
He/Him
Player (123)
Joined: 10/4/2004
Posts: 940
That's a good start, I have some idea:
    Game selection (are you picking popular game, fast paced game, or game that's already published? = good to go) Review your completed run (Anything improvable might be spotted - Yeah I know I have bad habit!) Be aware of your game (play it normally, look up guide on beating game, 100% game, hidden stuff, find your own glitch, L+R, U+D, all that)
Posted: 3/7/2007 7:49 PM
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SXL
Joined: 2/7/2005
Posts: 571
don't forget basic stuff. save state, record frame by frame, note number of frame when reaching end of area, rewind, try better. it's not that easy because you must always remind how to avoid desynchs, etc. I find it the hardest part of TAS learning, not only because it's tedious, but complicated. I would really appreciate a detailed video tutorial of such things, and I guess most beginners would too.
I never sleep, 'cause sleep is the cousin of death - NAS
Posted: 3/7/2007 10:00 PM
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ventuz
He/Him
Player (123)
Joined: 10/4/2004
Posts: 940
SXL wrote:
save state
That made me having to add more ideas -_- On the savestates part, talk about the purpose of using different save slots would be good idea, such as using slot 1 is your current tas, slot 2 would be small rollback, slot 3 would be your best attempt, and slot 4 would be large rollback portion on read-only (rather than re-run your tas). Using Mega Man 1 for NES for an example, lets say Elec Man is completed and you are on Cut Man stage. Slot 1 - You are in middle of fighting Cut Man. (Current working) Slot 2 - The begin of Cut Man fight. Slot 3 - End of Cut Man with fastest time. Slot 4 - The beginning of Cut Man stage, use read-only. Then.. bleh.. you get the idea, or you might have better idea. I dunno how to explain the whole progress. Another ideas, the purpose of backup file (in case of accident delete, FCEU corrupt, etc..) and the purpose of toggle Read+Write and Read-Only and their use.
Posted: 3/8/2007 1:06 AM
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ZeXr0
Joined: 8/27/2006
Posts: 883
I think that subpixel positioning is another thing that I don't get, and that I would like to see explain :)
Posted: 3/8/2007 11:02 AM
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Dromiceius
Joined: 10/3/2005
Posts: 1332
I'd like to second subpixel position, and suggest a tutorial on using debuggers and/or disassembly.
Posted: 3/8/2007 11:32 AM
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Maza
Joined: 5/27/2005
Posts: 465
Location: Turku, Finland
subpixel position thirded. And overall, this tutorial thing sounds very good. I hope we'll get some sample of it soon :)
Which run should I encode next? :)
Posted: 3/8/2007 3:04 PM
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ZeXr0
Joined: 8/27/2006
Posts: 883
zefiris : Could you wrap up the idea and update the first post, that would be easier to ask for things that are not already suggested ;) Yesterday, I read a post by Bisqwit and he was explaining out to improve the Megaman Hack, and it was nice to see how we could possibly improve a run. I think it would be great in the tutorial.
Posted: 3/10/2007 9:10 AM
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Warp
Banned User, Former player
Joined: 3/10/2004
Posts: 7698
Location: Finland
I really don't understand why making a video seems to be considered so essential. How about simply a series of webpages with concise descriptions and clear helpful screenshots (some of which might be animated gifs)? While a video could be a cool introduction, is it really worth the effort? You can't use a video as a "reference manual" for obvious reasons, you'll have to go back and forward in the video if you missed something, and overall you can't control the speed at which you "learn" from a video. If later you wanted to see something specific again, you'll have to start the video and seek that thing until you find it, while on a webpage you simply click on an url in the contents section. Besides, a video is a large download while a series of webpages isn't (even when there are lots of images).
Posted: 3/10/2007 1:59 PM
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SXL
Joined: 2/7/2005
Posts: 571
true, but showing how TAS are done, on an online video site (read : youtube/googlevideo), would prevent newcomers from being misinformed (the usual "cheaters !" comment). tutorials are not only for players beginning TASing, they could be some use for watchers too, and even more to the general public. it would help the site to go broader than its usual, somewhat limited niche. but I second that the website lacks real docs, a very detailed "how to do your first TAS" for some emulators. I'm quite sure there are many, many other people like me, who feel lost and discouraged to even start a TAS, and the players pool would quickly welcome a lot more people if things were explained at a lower, easier level.
I never sleep, 'cause sleep is the cousin of death - NAS
Posted: 3/10/2007 2:02 PM
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zefiris
Joined: 4/11/2006
Posts: 487
Location: North of Russia :[
In fact I already tried making some videos, and figured that it would begin with text explanation anyways, so having webpage associated with a movie instead of putting introductory text there is a good idea. Still, as for showing example, video version is the best I think.
Posted: 3/10/2007 2:11 PM
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SXL
Joined: 2/7/2005
Posts: 571
you can mix both... a new page next to the "why/how", having chapters with several embedded youtube short clips. better than Bisqwit's gifs, and it won't eat any bandwith. that would help people reading those pages (why/how and the tutorial), since we all know that the general public prefer accompagnying demonstrations from just raw text. a more modern wiki IMHO... ;)
I never sleep, 'cause sleep is the cousin of death - NAS
Posted: 3/10/2007 2:55 PM
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Baxter
Skilled player (1402)
Joined: 5/31/2004
Posts: 1821
TAS of 2013 SNES TAS of 2013 Speedy TAS of 2007 Innovative TAS of 2007
SXL wrote:
true, but showing how TAS are done, on an online video site (read : youtube/googlevideo), would prevent newcomers from being misinformed (the usual "cheaters !" comment). tutorials are not only for players beginning TASing, they could be some use for watchers too, and even more to the general public.
I think these are 2 completely different things. I'd say for people who make comments like "CHEATED!!!" a video can be made for youtube to show what the purpose is, and an overview of what tools are/can be used. For people who want to make a TAS themselves, and tutorial can be made as a series of webpages (like Warp said).
http://tasvideos.org/Baxter.html
Posted: 12/24/2007 7:10 PM
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Khayn
Joined: 12/24/2007
Posts: 2
Hi, i'm a new guy here, and in general to TASing... i've been reading the site over the past few days and i've thought about trying my hand at a TAS (obviously not one which would break a record or anything :P) I was considering perhaps a TAS of one level of Mega Man X for the SNES, since it's a game i actually own the official cart to so i know it fairly well (or used to at least, maybe not now, i haven't played it in years ^^) A video such as this tutorial would be of great help to me, as i THINK i know how i would use savestates and frame advance to achieve a TAS, but i'm a little confused as to exactly how to start off...
Posted: 12/24/2007 7:25 PM
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Randil
Skilled player (1886)
Joined: 4/20/2005
Posts: 2160
Location: Norrköping, Sweden
Here's a (really) small step by step guide on how to begin, if you want to record a tool-assisted SNES movie: 1. Make sure you have SNES9X v1.43 v9+. 2. Also make sure you have a good Mega Man X ROM (we do not distribute ROMs here, nor do we post links to ROM sites, so how you get the ROM is your business). 3. Open the MMX ROM with SNES9X. (File->Load game...) 4. When you have loaded the game, fo to File->Movie record, when the "Record movie" window pops up, just click OK. 5. Put on frame display to see what frame you're currently recording (go to Input->Customize hotkeys to see what button is bound to frame display). 6. Make a savestate somewhere in the movie, and then load the savestate. You'll see that your movie is rewinded to the point where you made the savestate! This way you can redo stuff over and over until you get it right. You should also try recording input with frame advance, to get a hang of it, and it might be fun to try recording at lower emulation speeds too. Just fool around with these tools, and you'll get a hang of it for sure. :) Perhaps you already knew all the stuff in point 6, but I hope this post made some sense to you. :)
My own page on this site.
Posted: 12/24/2007 8:40 PM
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Khayn
Joined: 12/24/2007
Posts: 2
i've done a bit of research, so most of that was the stuff i intended on doing, but i've read about possibly screwing up your recording if you load the wrong savestate? What's that all about, or doesn't it apply to that version of SNES9x? (I think i have that one, i've been watching all the movies on here with it, so presumably yes...) I have the ROM. I was thinkign about grabbing a cheap input device for my PC, used to have one but it failed pretty hard, so was thinking of grabbing a new one to hook up to my Emulators, they're just not the same on a keyboard, you know? :)
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