Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1057
Location: United States
Saturn wrote:
I don't know how moozoohs plan is, but I don't intend to spam this site with "relatively" unoptimized runs. I will submit only one run for which I let me time as much as I need, and this run will make everything clear once and for all.
So this site should only contain perfect runs then? If an entertaining movie isn't 100% optimal it should be considered spam? Imagine a TASvideos website with only 100% optimal runs. We would have Donkey Kong and Circus Charlie, how exciting. FODA's Super Mario 64 run is one of the most entertaining and spectacular runs ever made, yet it is improvable by over 2 minutes. Should it be considered spam too?
Joined: 3/29/2005
Posts: 229
Location: The boonies.
I'm with Hero on that one: if a movie is good and better than anything it might obsolete, it should be published, even if it is demonstrably imperfect.
This site's about making quality runs. Not squeezing every last frame out of a game. I think our record of publication speaks to that effect.
(And as the author of exactly one submission which was rejected because the run was simply not interesting enough, that issue hits home to me. I think devotion to quality is what makes this site what it is, and I would be very hurt to be told flat out that I was wrong about that.)
With regards to taking pride in a movie: I think saying "don't get emotionally attached" is good advice, but at the same time I think it's advice that's hard to follow. -shrug- Humans are, after all, emotional beings.
a good definition of pride is claiming what is due to oneself.
A better definition of pride is thinking you're better than you really are.
I don't believe so. I think that this interpretation is more or less a result of various religions, which claim that it is a "deadly sin" to feel any self-respect or personal worth for one's "earthly" accomplishments. I am both selfish and proud. I am not, however, greedy nor am I arrogant.
i'm just dropping by to say, why (as it seems) is 'pride' being used as a viceword? a good definition of pride is claiming what is due to oneself. it seems obvious that this is a virtue, not a vice.
Pride goeth before a fall, and all that. I will agree that "pride movie" is a bit misleading. I think "vanity movie" is closer to what was intended. And while it may be a virtue to have pride in your work, it can quickly become a vice if your "pride" leads you into self-destructive situations (i.e. I can't back down now, it's a matter of pride).
Joined: 12/26/2006
Posts: 256
Location: United States of America
It's common knowledge that pride has two connotations: one good and one bad. Pride movie is evidently intended to refer to the negative connotation; that is, a movie to show off, "Hey! Look what I did!" without actually being a quality movie. On the other hand, there's nothing wrong with being proud (in the good way) of a quality movie. That's why I like my earlier definition of a pride movie.
Some members of this site who have made very high quality movies have had issues with pride (the bad kind), yet that does not (necessarily) make their movies pride movies. On the other hand, a certain less egotistical individual might submit a pride movie to "show off" to another community: Hey! Look what I can do with tool assistance!
A wise king once wrote:
Pride is before a crash, and a haughty spirit before stumbling.
Before a crash the heart of a man is lofty, and before glory there is humility.
So this site should only contain perfect runs then? If an entertaining movie isn't 100% optimal it should be considered spam? Imagine a TASvideos website with only 100% optimal runs. We would have Donkey Kong and Circus Charlie, how exciting. FODA's Super Mario 64 run is one of the most entertaining and spectacular runs ever made, yet it is improvable by over 2 minutes. Should it be considered spam too?
No of course not. My statement was only the case about my own submissions regarding Super Metroid. I know I could do a quick and still over average, high quality TAS of that game and just submit it, but it would be spam because I know I can do a much better run by taking more time to optimize it. So I better avoid unnecessary submissions knowing that a improvement of myself will come anyway.
I very much agree that speed is not the only goal on this site, and that it's in some cases better to aim for entertainment instead, especially in fighting games, which I also did like that, but the great thing in Super Metroid is that it allows both goals to be included without any compromises. Because of that, my absolutely top priority in that game is speed, which should definitely be everyone else goal as well when TASing this game, because it's a very speed-orientated game by itself and the faster it is, the more entertaining it automatically gets in 99% of cases.
moozooh wrote:
I will always find improvements in your runs! You will never beat me! HA HA AH AAHA ahA HAH AAhaaha!!!
Everyone has dreams, but this one won't last that long, so enjoy it as long as you can. I just hope you won't get disappoinrted when you will have to face the truth someday.
Saturn, you carefully hide your Super Metroid progress, so I would think that you are the one who is more worried about being beaten. The rest of us have been sharing what we've discovered.
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
Saturn, you carefully hide your Super Metroid progress, so I would think that you are the one who is more worried about being beaten. The rest of us have been sharing what we've discovered.
No, thats not the reason at all.
Did you forgot I revealed the shortest charge trick even catnap didn't know about (ashibumi is longer and won't allow you Big Metroid skip or a major shortcut to shinespark to Wrecked Ship) and later the Spore Super Missile without CF? Without them you wouldn't even be able to get a sub 39 100% run most likely, so think about it.
The reason I'm not posting WIPs is to keep the surprise for the first time watcher alive. My run will be different in many ways, and I really don't want to spoil anything until the full run is done and submitted. You will thank me for that when you see that run later and in it's full length.
Keep in mind, Saturn, that it's hard to surprise those who are actually closely working on SM TASes. I, for once, won't be surprised easily, and you know it, and I'm more than sure that collaborating openly would benefit you as well (especially since I've already improved upon your WIP).
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
That "pride movie" thread is just a pretext to hunt witches. That's stupid. Saturn, continue your run and don't feel hurt from what "hunters" are saying.
Phil, shut up, you're out of your element.
Saturn wrote:
You will thank me for that when you see that run later and in it's full length.
No I won't. I've told you before that I think it's bullshit how secretive you are. It reminds me of the whole "pride" thing that this thread has been all about.
Kind of like how you constantly remind people here that you discovered something, or that something someone else discovered was "obvious" thanks to your previous discovery... blah.
This doesn't mean I won't enjoy watching your run, though. But please don't turn into another Phil, we have too many as it is.
[Edit by Bisqwit: Removed offensive language. Please reword it if you want to restate what you said.]
[Edit by JXQ: Reworded and restated. (The previous version was a movie quote). The previous version also was meant to be taken as a compliment to Phil. How it got misconstrued is beyond me!]
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
(especially since I've already improved upon your WIP)
...which is almost 1 year old by now, and according to my calculations you saved only 2-4 frames (not counting Ceres, moozooh- and catnap-jump). Still very solid of course, as I highly doubt anybody else except of you could even match that WIP run.
Phil wrote:
That "pride movie" thread is just a pretext to hunt witches. That's stupid. Saturn, continue your run and don't feel hurt from what "hunters" are saying.
No problem. It's usual that people sometimes have a hard time to accept the facts until they can see them.
JXQ wrote:
Kind of like how you constantly remind people here that you discovered something
Just a reminder for you that I didn't hide my work like you said I do.
JXQ wrote:
or that something someone else discovered was "obvious"
To me, because I already knew it that time. Is there anything wrong about it?
Just a reminder for you that I didn't hide my work like you said I do.
Absolute lie. As an example, many times in IRC moozooh has asked you a question about a frame number on your Ceres escape (since you refuse to show it, but have no problem touting that it's 49.15) and you gave him some condescending answer like "if you do it as fast as possible, you'll match my time :-)".
Like I said, we have too many already...
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1057
Location: United States
What relevance does it have that your wip is over a year old Saturn? You said it was perfect, therefore moozooh should not have been able to improve upon it at all. You seem way to overconfident in yourself. I have said on numerous occasions that you are a great TASer, but this cocky attitude is completely unnecessary. You haven't done or shown anything that proves you are better than JXQ or myself. I don't go around gloating that I am a great Super Metroid TASer. I could have spent more time searching for your little secret improvements in my Super Metroid run, but then I would have spent 3 years making it instead of 3 weeks. As it stands now, my any% is barely improvable (maybe 15 seconds), and it is only improvable because people kept secrets from me.
Note: the speed improvements listed here are theoretical for the most part. Realistically, the actual savings will most likely be smaller than those stated below the headings.
I can also list some theoretical fantasy values. Only the real achievements count.
JXQ wrote:
Absolute lie. As an example, many times in IRC moozooh has asked you a question about a frame number on your Ceres escape (since you refuse to show it, but have no problem touting that it's 49.15) and you gave him some condescending answer like "if you do it as fast as possible, you'll match my time :-)".
Thats just done because I want moozooh to avoid aming to copy my frame numbers. He would be blocked in his own incredible search possibilities by just comparing to me, which could make him miss another possible frame-saver in that escape, even though it's highly unlikely. Unfortunately moozooh didn't take that chance by intentionally skipping to optimize Ceres in his test run (which would be the optimal place to do so, instead of taking a risk doing it in the final run) and only starting so in Zebes, so no results of that so far.
Hero:
Even though I thought my WIP was perfect, it was wrong as you see. Knowledge increases the more you work on such a run, and 1 year is a pretty long time span already.
I don't have to prove anything to anybody yet. You will see it when the full run is done by yourself. And it was obvious that I compared between our Super Metroid runs only, not us TASers in general, so don't blame me for things I have never said.
Well, the real achievements are: at least 5 frames from better optimization (up to blue Brinstar to Crateria elevator, and I've saved 8+ more on JXQ's run after that by the moment of taking bombs, which I'm not sure you have), 7 frames from catnap jump, 4 frames from moozooh jump, not counting at least another 5 frames of confirmed opportunities I missed and left for the full run… Those constitute to 16—21+ frames of improvement in the real achievements exclusively, on Zebes alone, by the moment I stopped. Also, regarding "fantasy" values, I should say that the values I listed denote the parts I know I have played sloppily, or was so close to the goal that I had no doubts it was achievable, or just made a mistake. Most of them actually mean an improvement, but you won't get the actual values until I start the final run. I'm pretty sure I'll be able to improve upon your WIP further, whether you will provide me with more data or not, but it's inarguable that sharing it will surely save my time (and your, too) and make the run better.
But, I have troubles understanding your goals. For one thing, you don't want to hinder my achievements because you think sharing more data would lead to me trying to match your results, rather than search for my own ways (which is at least odd, since I use other references, anyway, it's just that they are less optimal). On the other hand, you claim you'll beat me in the end, which kinda contradicts with the previous statement.
So in the end, what is it that you want, for all of our (and Hero's, and JXQ's, and whoever comes after them) movies to be better, or for yours to still be the best? I honestly don't get it. Up to this evening, I wanted to share my WIP with you to exchange some ideas, but I had to reconsider it, because up to now it was mostly one-sided kind of exchange. It costs much to get even frame numbers out of you, so why should I feed you with my ideas when you're so reluctant to share yours? I'd rather share them with Hero and JXQ, since they do appreciate them, are putting them to good use and helping me in other ways available to them.
We have one similar aspect to our goals: to make an unimprovable movie, but guess what's the difference between the realizations of our goals.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
I'm taking donations to buy Phil a dictionary. I'll start the fund at 50 cents. Aiming for $30, which should buy a nice big one and cover shipping. PM me if you are interested in contributing.
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
I'm taking donations to buy Phil a dictionary. I'll start the fund at 50 cents. Aiming for $30, which should buy a nice big one and cover shipping. PM me if you are interested in contributing.
Buy me one too.
I did not understand what you meant by "good burn on Phil".
(And, why you're picking on him in the first place.)
I did not understand what you meant by "good burn on Phil".
Good burn means that someone else insulted him cleverly.
(Edit for clarity) In this case, it was actually poking fun at Saturn's shot at moozooh, which he is actually guilty of himself, but not as much as Phil. Saturn wasn't actually talking about Phil, but it was a characteristic of Phil's, so I just built the bridge. Two for the price of one!
(And, why you're picking on him in the first place.)
Mostly because I have absolutely zero respect for him. Slightly because I'm bored.
It comes down to the fact that Phil wants to have logical arguments like he understands English when he clearly doesn't. I've told him 50 times what a hypocrite is and all he can say back is "I know you are but what am I". Go back to pre-school with that.
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
