Topic by Sir_VG

Posted: 4/16/2007 3:59 PM

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Sir_VG

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Player (39)

Joined: 10/9/2004
Posts: 1911
Location: Floating Tower

About time somebody is getting to this. Thoughts: Filmoa Act I: Great new boss strategy. I'm gonna have to see if I can use it on my speedrun. Filmoa Sim: Good, though I wonder why you skipped waiting the turn at the end. Building the road to the end connects Filmoa to Bloodpool, allowing Filmoa to have Wheat. Wheat allows better population growth than Corn. Filmoa Act II: Good, though you can run under a couple of those falling spikes at the end instead of jumping over all of them. Bloodpool Act I: Looks good. No complaints here. Also, make sure you're using my 1:10 run, not my 1:12 run, though the general sim strategy is the same. And don't use my Aitos Act II level as a base...that level sucked. Heh.

I just found a new trick to make the hero move faster off of jumps, although I'm not sure if this is already known. Depending on when you start a jump, the hero will move faster than normal for a few frames. Perhaps this has something to do with why I had such a hard time matching the times you had in some segments of Fillmore Act 2.

Known. I utilized this several times in my runs, especially Northwall. The slopes there give major league accel to your jumps.

Taking over the world, one game at a time. Currently TASing: Nothing

Posted: 4/16/2007 5:11 PM

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OgreSlayeR

Former player

Joined: 7/12/2004
Posts: 524
Location: USA

Sorry for suggesting this late, but I have a feeling skipping the other MP scroll in Fillmore is a bad idea. I believe you are going to have to spend time leveling up regardless, so I doubt it is a waste especially when you get a extra scroll. It would help the boss re-fights for sure. It will definitely help against the Act 2 Maranha boss which is one of the slowest fights. Anyway, here is the scroll I'm talking about. I tested some and it appears after you seal 3 of the 4 lairs that the event for getting the scroll won't trigger.

I don't think VG got this one either. I do think even though it will make the Fillmore sim longer I believe it will be worth getting this because like I said; you will have to spend extra time anyway to level some. Also it would of course make the Act 2 Fillmore boss and the Act 1 Bloodpool bosses faster as you would have a extra magic to use. It would require some testing though.

Working on: Command and Conquer PSX Nod Campaign

Posted: 4/16/2007 6:03 PM

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zidanax

Player (215)

Joined: 2/12/2006
Posts: 373
Location: Oregon

Sir VG wrote:

Filmoa Sim: Good, though I wonder why you skipped waiting the turn at the end. Building the road to the end connects Filmoa to Bloodpool, allowing Filmoa to have Wheat. Wheat allows better population growth than Corn.

Thanks to fast forward, I did some testing in Bloodpool to see how much the people of Fillmore would reproduce behind my back when they weren't given wheat and when they were given wheat. It turned out that giving them wheat made no difference at all to their maximum population, given that no extra roads are built or obsolete housing destroyed. I would have to build more roads or destroy more housing before getting wheat to the people of Fillmore would be useful. EDIT: Given Bisqwit's comments about the downtime in the Fillmore sim and the fact that I might be able to save some time in the Fillmore acts now that I know how that that jump trick works, I think I'm going to restart this run. I will post a WIP of the Fillmore sim when it's only partway done, because I will definitely want comments about how I'm doing entertainment wise. I will admit that my sense of entertainment is not very good. I will also look at your guy's other suggestions and see if they'll work out (If not, I'll say why).

Posted: 4/16/2007 6:28 PM

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upthorn

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Emulator Coder, Active player (388)

Joined: 3/24/2006
Posts: 1802

zidanax wrote:

EDIT: Given Bisqwit's comments about the downtime in the Fillmore sim and the fact that I might be able to save some time in the Fillmore acts now that I know how that that jump trick works, I think I'm going to restart this run. I will post a WIP of the Fillmore sim when it's only partway done, because I will definitely want comments about how I'm doing entertainment wise. I will admit that my sense of entertainment is not very good. I will also look at your guy's other suggestions and see if they'll work out (If not, I'll say why).

Bisqwit has edited his post to indicate that these suggestions were not in response to your WIP, but problems the published movie has that you should try to avoid.

How fleeting are all human passions compared with the massive continuity of ducks.

Posted: 4/16/2007 7:48 PM

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zidanax

Player (215)

Joined: 2/12/2006
Posts: 373
Location: Oregon

Sir VG, I'll do some further testing to make absolutely sure that what I said in my previous post about wheat is correct, but I should mention something else. When I tried destroying all the crop fields in Fillmore, then building more roads, the people of Fillmore never built another crop field. Instead, they built more of those purple houses. So my hypothesis as to why giving them wheat appears to make no difference is that they are fed by something being produced in those purple buildings, possibly fish, since they learned how to fish at the highest civilization level. I will also do some testing to try to find the minimum number of Magical Stardust castings needed to kill each boss. This will give me a much better idea of when to get those magic flags, or whatever you call them, and when not to. EDIT: Correct me if I'm wrong but it looks like the MP scroll in Fillmore would take two construction phases to reach. There is a period of 720 frames between each construction phase, plus some lag before actual construction, plus the time for people to actually come out and build stuff before the countdown begins again. So that MP scroll would have to save me at least 1440 frames of time in the boss fights, possibly a lot more thanks to the time it takes for the actual construction. To me, 24 seconds saved throughout the various boss fights from one more MP scroll sounds like a tall order. What do you guys think? Would one more MP scroll save that much time? Perhaps this should be part of my testing.

Posted: 4/17/2007 6:26 AM

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zidanax

Player (215)

Joined: 2/12/2006
Posts: 373
Location: Oregon

I've found a document on GameFAQs that could end up being very helpful in determining how to go about doing simulations. It's a maximum population guide, but it could be very useful because it has an extremely in-depth analysis of how the population part of the sims works. For example, it has a table of supporting structures (i.e., structures that feed people). Apparently, those purple buildings in Fillmore are mansions. They can support 72 people each, in contrast with 48 for wheat fields and 32 for corn fields. This seems to support my hypothesis about the Fillmore people no longer needing wheat fields when they're at a high enough civilization level. In fact, the author explicity states this sentiment a little later. I will be reading the whole document before I redo the Fillmore sim. At a quick glance, It looks like it has a lot more quantitative info than most FAQS. It touches on all sorts of elements of how population works that most people wouldn't notice, such as the soul counter system, and how the scores you get in the action segments actually influence the maximum population you can get. I'm not sure just how much of this will actually apply to a TAS, but with the depth of analysis in this document, there will probably be some applicable info. Sir VG: The FAQ was very recently submitted to GameFAQs. It was submitted on March 14,2007, after you submitted your latest 1:10:06 SDA run. If you ever decide to try and make an improvement, I would suggest looking at the guide now that it's available, because it looks really detailed.

Posted: 4/17/2007 1:40 PM

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OgreSlayeR

Former player

Joined: 7/12/2004
Posts: 524
Location: USA

Guess only way to tell for sure if that Fillmore scroll is worth it is to test how many frames it takes to get it then see if it saves more frames in the boss re-fights. I have a save file with all the magic scrolls at the very end of the game if you need it to test.

Working on: Command and Conquer PSX Nod Campaign

Posted: 4/17/2007 3:00 PM

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Sir_VG

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Joined: 10/9/2004
Posts: 1911
Location: Floating Tower

Wait wait wait...there's TWO scrolls in Filmoa? Geezus. That makes for 7MP by the end of the game. Oh damn...now I'm gonna have to go back through my speedrun again. -_-;;

Taking over the world, one game at a time. Currently TASing: Nothing

Posted: 4/17/2007 3:58 PM

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zidanax

Player (215)

Joined: 2/12/2006
Posts: 373
Location: Oregon

Sir VG wrote:

Wait wait wait...there's TWO scrolls in Filmoa?

Yep, I tested it. When you build a road on the square highlighted in OgreSlayeR's picture, the people of Fillmore tell you that they found an MP scroll.

Posted: 4/17/2007 4:05 PM

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Sir_VG

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Player (39)

Joined: 10/9/2004
Posts: 1911
Location: Floating Tower

Yep, tried it on the console. The way the FAQ writers describe when you can get the scrolls, they get it wrong.

-------- |Fillmore| -------- -=-SOURCE OF MAGIC-=- Beat the Minotaurus boss. -=-SOURCE OF MAGIC-=- Fish at sea after beating the Minotaurus boss.

Neither are correct. They should be

-------- |Fillmore| -------- -=-SOURCE OF MAGIC-=- Build east of the temple and into the woods -=-SOURCE OF MAGIC-=- Fish at sea after the population reaches 200. However if it reaches this after all 4 lairs are sealed, this event will not happen until after Act II is completed.

Taking over the world, one game at a time. Currently TASing: Nothing

Posted: 4/17/2007 8:24 PM

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OgreSlayeR

Former player

Joined: 7/12/2004
Posts: 524
Location: USA

Sir VG wrote:

Wait wait wait...there's TWO scrolls in Filmoa? Geezus. That makes for 7MP by the end of the game. Oh damn...now I'm gonna have to go back through my speedrun again. -_-;;

There are actually 8 MP scrolls. The 8th one you have to use the compass you get in Bloodpool (which you have to use the music box to trigger) and use it Maranha. The people will find it while fishing. I doubt it is worth the trouble though. Getting 7 MP scrolls might be worth it though. The one in Fillmore does take some time as well though, so we'll have to see.

Working on: Command and Conquer PSX Nod Campaign

Posted: 4/18/2007 5:32 AM

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Sir_VG

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Joined: 10/9/2004
Posts: 1911
Location: Floating Tower

Geezus. 8? Getting the 7th (in Filmoa) wouldn't be too far out of the way. You'd just take a slight building detour after sealing the 1st two lairs at the top while you're heading back towards the south lair. The 8th would be quite far out of the way, IMO, given you have to complete Casandra, return to Bloodpool, then wait there. Not worth it, really. Having 7 for Deathheim would be fantastic. 6 really did wonders for me, though having a 7th would save time for Marahna's boss repeat.

Taking over the world, one game at a time. Currently TASing: Nothing

Posted: 4/18/2007 6:45 AM

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zidanax

Player (215)

Joined: 2/12/2006
Posts: 373
Location: Oregon

I did a little testing to see how long it would take to get back to building towards lair three. It looks like the delay would be roughly 3400 frames. Actually, the delay was 3561 frames, but I'm giving a conservative estimate because some of my maneuvers were slightly imprecise, and the route change could have caused subtle changes of some sort. Are you guys sure one MP scroll could save 56-57 seconds? I realize that building a road would allow for more houses, but because of the forests in that area, the maximum number of houses in those three squares is limited from the usual 15 to just 8. If I wanted to raise my population, there are other places where I could just build roads into 3 unobstructed squares, and get 15 houses. EDIT: What am I saying, I should just go ahead and test using 7 scrolls compared with using 6 scrolls in Deathheim (I'm not sure why more than 6 would come in handy anywhere else). I'll report the results back when I get that done.

Posted: 4/18/2007 7:21 AM

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Sir_VG

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Joined: 10/9/2004
Posts: 1911
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Going that route is nothing about the population. It's all about the scrolls. And yes, it's gonna be all about Deathheim, though having 2 scrolls for Bloodpool Act I boss might shave some time too. It may also shave a second at Filmoa Act II boss, test there too. I'm sure it won't affect either Northwall, Aitos, Casandra, or Marahna boss.

Taking over the world, one game at a time. Currently TASing: Nothing

Posted: 4/18/2007 8:01 AM

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zidanax

Player (215)

Joined: 2/12/2006
Posts: 373
Location: Oregon

Yeah, I agree that it's all about Deathheim and not about the houses. I guess I just wanted to say that the population gain from the new houses would likely not be enough to compensate for not saving quite enough time in Deathheim. I'm not sure I'd be able to shave off any frames on Bloodpool Boss 1 with a second MP scroll. I checked on how long the fireball animation takes: the hero stays in that sword-in-the-air position for 63 frames, if I'm counting correctly. That's 3 frames longer than the time to execute 3 sword attacks. So where the fireball comes in handy is when the boss is about to attack you, otherwise you're probably better off doing regular attacks, unless you can somehow make the fireball do more than 3 damage against that boss. I would save some time on the 2nd Fillmore boss, but it probably wouldn't be more than half a second thanks to the amount of time you stay in the magic casting pose. Anyway, even several seconds saved on those two bosses wouldn't be nearly enough time to make a 7th scroll worth it. Remember, to make this worth it, I would have to save about one minute , so it's all about Deathheim. EDIT: I'll test this stuff, if for no other reason than to get a good "feel" for each boss, but I'm seriously doubting that even Deathheim would save me enough time with a 7th scroll. It looks like it would be the Maranha and Northwall bosses where the most time could be saved, but Ogreslayer manages to kill even those two bosses in about 3300 frames from the appearance of the Maranha repeat to the death of the dragon. And he only had 5 scrolls at the beginning of Deathheim, not 6, and he only had 2 by the Maranha Act 2 repeat. EDIT: What I think I'll do is test which bosses I should use stardust on in Deathheim, and how many scrolls for each boss. To a certain degree, it's obvious, e.g., the Maranha repeat and the Northwall repeat could use stardust. But to be certain, I'll see how long it takes me to kill each boss given up to 3 scrolls per boss (possibly 4 in the case of the Maranha repeat). So I'll see how long it takes to kill a certain boss sans scrolls, then test with one scroll allowed, then with 2, then with three. I'll repeat that process for each boss. Yes, that'll take a long time to test, but it's probably the best way to find out how many scrolls I'll want for Deathheim, and how to balance out the scrolls between bosses. In the process I'll get a very precise measure of how much time a 7th scroll would save. So I'll go ahead and test things out that way. This could take a while, but I think it will be worth it.

Posted: 4/18/2007 11:11 PM

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OgreSlayeR

Former player

Joined: 7/12/2004
Posts: 524
Location: USA

That's a lot of work..kudos man. The end result will be great if you finish. (I hope you do!)

Working on: Command and Conquer PSX Nod Campaign

Posted: 4/19/2007 8:43 AM

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zidanax

Player (215)

Joined: 2/12/2006
Posts: 373
Location: Oregon

The first boss was surprisingly quick. Measuring from when the hero is fully materialized to when the boss died, it took me 775 frames using no scrolls. After many tries, I got one scroll to bring the boss down to 2 life, after attacking the boss twice at the beginning (that's neccessary because the boss goes offscreen very quickly at the start). I then just attacked the boss twice before it was able to get offscreen. Time: 355 frames , resulting in 420 frames saved. Using two scrolls does not incur any savings on this boss. Here's an SMV if you're interesting in watching the boss get owned :)

Posted: 4/19/2007 1:48 PM

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Sir_VG

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Joined: 10/9/2004
Posts: 1911
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Here's an SMV if you're interesting in watching the boss get owned :)

I can't play the file. "Wrong Format" message from SNES9X.

Taking over the world, one game at a time. Currently TASing: Nothing

Posted: 4/19/2007 6:10 PM

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zidanax

Player (215)

Joined: 2/12/2006
Posts: 373
Location: Oregon

Probably because the SMV is started from a saved game. I wasn't sure whether that would make a difference. I guess it might. Which version of SNES9x are you using?

Posted: 4/19/2007 7:00 PM

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Sir_VG

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Player (39)

Joined: 10/9/2004
Posts: 1911
Location: Floating Tower

Improvement 9 (the one without any of the bells and whistles).

Taking over the world, one game at a time. Currently TASing: Nothing

Posted: 4/19/2007 8:29 PM

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zidanax

Player (215)

Joined: 2/12/2006
Posts: 373
Location: Oregon

Perhaps having the SRM would help?

Posted: 4/19/2007 10:42 PM

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RT-55J

Player (147)

Joined: 11/27/2004
Posts: 688
Location: WA State, USA

SirVG, the link was to the download page, not the movie file itself. That should solve your problem.

Nach wrote:

I also used to wake up every morning, open my curtains, and see the twin towers. And then one day, wasn't able to anymore, I'll never forget that.

Posted: 4/20/2007 4:22 AM

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zidanax

Player (215)

Joined: 2/12/2006
Posts: 373
Location: Oregon

Question for OgreSlayeR/SirVG: Do you know of any ways to manipulate how the stardust falls on the enemy apart from having the enemy on a different part of the screen when you cast the spell? I can cast the spell again to change the falling pattern, but I'm not noticing any real changing of falling patterns from just walking around.

Posted: 4/20/2007 5:06 AM

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Sir_VG

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Player (39)

Joined: 10/9/2004
Posts: 1911
Location: Floating Tower

RT-55J wrote:

SirVG, the link was to the download page, not the movie file itself. That should solve your problem.

Sorry, but I'm not THAT dumb. If I downloaded the link, I'd have an HTML file, not an SMV vile. Edit: Works now. When I got it earlier, the connection must have been a bit faulty, so the download wasn't 100% complete (that's what I get for downloading at work on a crappy IBM). Works now. Slick battling. As for your other question, no I don't. There may be something in the RAM, but I couldn't tell you that.

Taking over the world, one game at a time. Currently TASing: Nothing

Posted: 4/21/2007 7:16 AM

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zidanax

Player (215)

Joined: 2/12/2006
Posts: 373
Location: Oregon

OgreSlayeR: Your trick for an extra boost while jumping is really coming in handy. It gives the hero just enough of a boost to hit the Maranha Act 2 boss. Here's an SMV of my current best attempt at the boss with no scrolls used. It's actually 138 frames faster than OgreSlayeR's attempt with two scrolls thanks to the jumping trick. As for the first four bosses: The only boss where two scrolls saved time compared to one well-used scroll was the Bloodpool boss. Apart from the first boss, where I saved 420 frames from using stardust, I haven't been able to save more than 350 frames per boss from usage of scrolls. Also I was able to defeat the Maranha boss in 1156 frames, and that's without scrolls. Given that OgreSlayer was able to defeat the Dragon in 1142 without scrolls, and that that could certainly be improved now that Snes9x has frame advance, I can state with certainty that getting the 7th scroll would not be worth it, since I would have to save about 3400 frames from usage of that one scroll. It might be nice for a normal speedrun, but it's a waste of time to get the 7th scroll in a TAS. I will, however, finish finding out how much time scrolls would save on the last two bosses.