WIP until end of Flying Battery 1.
A few comments: Mushroom Hill 2 already shows the brokenness of Hyper Sonic: despite all the emerald grabbing and ring-grabbing at the end, and despite the short amount of time Hyper Sonic shows up, I still end the stage only 3 seconds slower than SprintGod's run because I can skip the climbing machine at the end in its entirety. All in all, everything else I tried so far was ultimately slower. I am yet to try skipping one of the giant rings (maybe the second one) in favor of the one at the very end. Also note that there is a ground entrance and zip with Hyper Sonic (at 0:48::11), but it happens so fast that it can only be seen in slow-motion. It is possible to extend the zip further to the right by dropping down a little (by pressing only down in the hyperlaunch), but it results in death.
But the sheer power of Hyper Sonic is shown in Flying Battery 2: this is my very first go at it, and it is still very rough around the edges. There is a lot of ring-grabbing at the start too. All told, it is probably possible to make it at a second faster that the current WIP; and despite all this it is 22 seconds faster than SprintGod's run... can you say "broken"?
you know you can do a slope glitch that skips a fair amount of the start of FB2, I'm not 100% sure it would save time compared to going hyper sonic though.
I am yet to try skipping one of the giant rings (maybe the second one) in favor of the one at the very end.
This is no longer true: skipping the second giant ring in Mushroom Hill 2 is slightly slower than doing as in the WIP. The reasons are two-fold: first, the time I "lose" grabbing the giant ring and returning to the path is roughly equal to the time it takes to go to the giant ring, lose the shield (before or after makes no difference) and return to spindash to the top of the climbing machine. I have to backtrack to about the same place as in the WIP to spindash or I will not have control during the jump: this means either I hit the red spring from below or I will have use the hyperlaunch to go around it, but losing the zip in the process.
There is also the fact that I managed to improve the Mushroom Hill 2 time by 64 frames by losing the shield earlier and becoming Hyper Sonic as soon as practical. The new WIP, showing the improved Mushroom Hill 2 is here.
you know you can do a slope glitch that skips a fair amount of the start of FB2
Hrm. How is it that glitch activated anyway? In the Sonic + Tails run, Tails grabs Sonic off one of those handle-thingies and glitches Sonic; in the Knuckles run, I am unsure where (or what) exactly activates it. Right now, Flying Battery 2 is looking like this. I found no useful zips with Hyper Sonic this level, and it is over 34 seconds faster than plain Sonic but still a minute slower than the glitched Sonic + Tails or Knuckles.
Joined: 11/11/2006
Posts: 1235
Location: United Kingdom
It works like this; If Sonic is on an active object (like one of those non-tile sprites like moving platforms and stuff) when it is destroyed or replaced by a normal non-active object, the game gets a bit confused and thinks he's still under one. This causes strange things to happen, but fixes when he touches another sprite based object (e.g. the zippers in FB or a floating platform). Jumping won't break the base effect, but will temporarily reset the value it thinks the floor is at to where the next floor is.
In FB2, this can be acheived by staying on the FB1 boss' platform for the final blow, but without being hit. I think theres like 1px room for this to work. After that, the rest of the mechanics of the zipping I am unsure about :)
<adelikat> I am annoyed at my irc statements ending up in forums & sigs
The "low-glitch" has been redefined as "not teleporting from start to end of the level". That particular glitch from Flying Battery 2 is a tough one to categorize, as it is a borderline case; a good deal of the level is skipped, taking me almost to the first boss, but there is still a lot of the level left...
Anyway, here is the WIP until end of Sandopolis 2. I am pleased with Sandolopis 1, but I hate Sandopolis 2: not because the first timed object is in a terrible position*, not because I have to wait for the sand in one point**, but because it the most zip unfriendly level ever. In the portion I am walking inside the wall to avoid waiting for the sand, there are several bits of wall inside the wall which I can enter and -- theoretically -- use to zip; but it always results in death. I recommend watching the part inside the wall with the sprites layer on top, so you can at least see Sonic.
* That first timed object -- is its position determined by luck, a frame rule or something else? Fo far, I have been trying to manipulate it but not having much success.
** Even the best time hyperlaunch from the highest jump falls slightly short. And jumping even a frame earlier than the WIP also falls short.
* That first timed object -- is its position determined by luck, a frame rule or something else? Fo far, I have been trying to manipulate it but not having much success.
I believe it's simply a function of a timer that starts when act 1 starts and keeps running until the end of act 2. In my run, I could have started act 2 earlier, but I purposely delayed entering the door long enough for the first timed object to not be in an inconvenient position. (I think SprintGod did that too but I can't remember.) If you get there at a really bad time then it might be necessary to do something more extreme like spindashing in the wrong direction from the door in order to delay the timer long enough.
I believe it's simply a function of a timer that starts when act 1 starts and keeps running until the end of act 2. In my run, I could have started act 2 earlier, but I purposely delayed entering the door long enough for the first timed object to not be in an inconvenient position.
Well, that did the trick. The new WIP takes the fire shield and ring monitors outside, which places the first timed object in a much better position (taking just the fire shield isn't enough, sadly). As a side effect, some other timed objects also appear in a very favorable position throughout the level. Much better now.
A few posts ago, I had posted a video I started of a Hyper Sonic 'concept demo' to get the hang of TASing Hyper Sonic.
But after I discovered Hyper Sonic's ability to do what I am calling a 'shallow zip' (best seen just before the Flying Battery 2 boss, but seen very briefly in Mushroom Hill 2), I decided to go back and redo Angel Island in the concept demo. I am still looking for good places to do do it in Angel Island 2, but the results for Angel Island 1 are in (warning: severe emerald grabbing in the first 65984 frames; if you made a forward save state in the previous video at about this point, it is still valid). The previous version has turned out to be horribly suboptimal, as the new video shows. For reference, the level time is 10 frames slower than the Sonic + Tails version (these 10 frames may or may not be possible to improve with slightly better optimization here and there); but if I were to re-do it with Sonic + Tails, at least 3 seconds 26 frames could be saved (the glitched start and a few frames in the boss fight).
I just thought I should share how broken Hyper Sonic really is :-)
Edit: I forgot to mention: yes, it is possible to glitch into the Knuckles route at the end of Angel Island 1, but that region is incredibly deadly to Hyper Sonic: just moving around will kill you (although some progress can be made).
WIP until end of Lava Reef 1. Until about 0:10, this is basically SprintGod's input. After that, some ring collecting for another show of Hyper Sonic's brokenness: despite spending time from 0:10::49 to 0:17::09 to gather rings, lose the shield and regain control, the early Hyper Sonic blasts through the level, regaining all lost time and then some.
A curiosity: the very first time I went through the level was actually slower than SprintGod's by 4 seconds; the second time through was 22 seconds faster, but still slower than Sonic + Tails and Hyper Knuckles. The third time is the WIP :-)
WIP until end of Hidden Palace.
Comments: In Lava Reef 2, the object at 0:11 defied all my attempts at manipulation. I needed it to be going up, and all attempts failed. The next one I got to move right or left and change the position, but that wasn't enough; if anyone can give a hint...
Hidden Palace is basically SprintGod's, with edits to conform to the style I have been using in the TAS.
I've been keeping up with this since MG1, or thereabouts.
And all I have to say is this: Hyper Sonic is indeed broken. :P
Your run has been superbly entertaining, and I can't wait to see the rest!
Stuffs. Yarr!
Scepheo wrote:
The chance of choosing the right door is 0, because laser-absorbing goats will brainwash you.
New WIP until end of Hidden Palace. Updated Lava Reef 2, which is 2 seconds faster now. I used the 'enter the ground' glitch at the start for a speed boost at the start; some more optimizations give me enough frames to put some timed objects in a slightly better position, while others are in a far worse position (see about 0:31 to 0:34 for an example of the latter; that detour is slightly more than 2 seconds faster than waiting for the sprites to get out of the way).
I also spliced the Carnival Night 2 improvement into the current Sonic + Tails run; that and 0:15::21 improvement in Launch Base 1 (hat tip to Orkal for it -- see this video). Mushroom Hill 2 desynched because of a lag frame occurring one frame too late, which was fixed by a 3-frame pause slightly before the mini-boss of act 1. I have resynched up to the end of Sandopolis 2. Most of Lava Reef 1 is also in synch, but the boss fight (the big hand) starts slightly more to the left despite rng seed and almost everything else being equal, and desynchs the fight. The movie is here.
AndyD wrote:
should do all levels with hyper sonic imo, much more interesting than watching all those special stages
I might eventually finish doing just that. However, if I really do it, the run will be a no-holds barred, fully glitched run that will start very similar to the one I linked to above (i.e., using level select to grab all emeralds then go through the game). Even that would have a small chance of being published if submitted, because all the emerald grabbing is boring when done that way *and* it would use a cheat code. However, it might make it as a concept demo. And it may be fun to break the entire game too.
Joined: 11/11/2006
Posts: 1235
Location: United Kingdom
marzojr wrote:
i.e., using level select to grab all emeralds then go through the game
How about if you just start from the end of this TAS? i.e make a new tas that uses the end save of this one and plays through again. Sort of like a "New Game+" run.
<adelikat> I am annoyed at my irc statements ending up in forums & sigs
except this run uses a No Save file. but i do agree that using a complete file would make a better movie than getting all 14 Emeralds with level select.
While the Hyper Sonic run I will submit is a "no save" run, it is easy enough to hex edit it into a "with save" run to generate the required save game.
There is certainly an argument for using Tails. Even though most of the time, he will be left so far behind that he will be present only in name; but some parts really do benefit from him.
Anyways, there is a new WIP up to the end of Death Egg 2. Up to about 0:17 of Death Egg 1 is essentially SprintGod's; and as can be seen from the WIP, it is better than the bottom route because of a more route for Hyper Sonic. The act 1 boss is kind of boring as Hyper Sonic is invulnerable. Unfortunately, I gain enough seconds in-game to cross a bonus boundary, losing them all in real time. In act 2, there is no path that gives Hyper Sonic faster; coincidentally, this is the faster path anyway. Using the Sonic + Tails path ends up being 4 seconds slower than the WIP. Unless I waste a great deal of time grabbing rings, I have to face Robotnik as regular Sonic; the lack of Tails makes this fight slower than the published run; the fight is basically SprintGod's input.
Only Doomsday zone remains. Given that the first part is basically an auto-scroller, I am thinking of trying to collect all rings. Most of the level is easily done, but there is one tricky spot with 3 groups of rings with the same x offset. Another possibility would be to finish with as few rings as possible; but since there is no end-level tally, this would only be for the 'just in time' feeling.
