Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11475
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
marzojr wrote:
r57shell wrote:
marzojr wrote:
Speaking of changes, might I persuade you to make a pull request for this? I found the added tools amazingly useful.
I'll pass.
If you provide the source code for the latest version of your mod, I can merge it myself.
AFAIK it hasn't been hosted anywhere, but the version I linked seems to be the ultimate one, even with some of my additions (that I also did locally). If you merge that, it might make sense to do it in a separate branch. I could compare with my version and also check my edits for bugs.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
I believe the bridge skip was explained at some point in this thread, but I don't remember where exactly. You'll most likely have to go digging for it.
If memory serves, it involves braking to create dust sprites which fill the sprite memory so that either Knuckles, the switch he jumps on, or both, don't spawn. Similar thing to the quick suicide after Hydrocity 1.
Hm, I thought I looked to HHS's post in the submission. Anyway:
* For AIZ, this is the post. The transition skip can only be done by Sonic or Sonic+Tails because you need the initial Knuckles cutscene. You should also read my follow-up post.
* For HCZ, this is the post. This can be done by all character combinations, but it will not necessarily be faster.
You're not going too fast Evil_3D? According to what I have seen a TAS run takes its time analyzing things.
Some Zamasu's quotes:
- When I was invited to this place, I thought you would teach me about justice. However, does the justice of the gods not only pass by to observe?
- Every time I am attacked, I enjoy my immortality.
Good question, but the reason for the speed up in this project is; Excluding Sandopolis 2 and Mushroom Hill 2 all zones are level warps, and I have greatly improved the times compared with the S&K TAS published ( 13 seconds ahead in SO2 as example and I redo this act 9 times, I'm sure its really optimized as hell now ) with the help of WST and Marzo.
Anyway I'm looking for improvements in the last zones, luckily I still did not find anything, and I still not going to submit it obviously fast, I need to analyze it before do it.
guys, is possible for sonic and tails collect the rings inside the walls in sandopolis 1 and icecap 2?
I'm searching ways to enter in the terrain in SO1 with a very hight fall-speed but I can't enter like Knuckles. in ICZ2 I can't reach the enough heigh to grab the rings in the sky and the 3 inside the walls.
any tips or sonic retro discoveries?
IIRC, the way I found for getting the rings in ICZ2 was triggering the slope glitch by having Tails smash the ice around any frozen monitor while Sonic's standing on it. There should be one located conveniently close by the rings.
SOZ1... I will have to check. It might be something similar to the ICZ2 method, as SOZ1 has similar breakable blocks, or maybe something involving the sand waterfalls. I will let you know later.
On second thought, I'm pretty sure it involved the pushable blocks - slope glitching by having Tails push it off a ledge while Sonic rides it, maybe?
But like I said, I'll check my notes and let you know later today.
Brace yourself 'cause this is gonna get ugly, straight outta Notepad:
ICZ2: bypass ST-boss in ICZ1, trigger slope glitch soon after, zip to inner-wallfloor above KTE's 3 rings, collect with T, zip straight back to beginning of KTE's ICZ2, play as normal until starpost, grab giant ring and enter (or vice versa if that proves problematic), go right/up for rings/shield then backtrack down/up out of cave and proceed to ST-boss for ICZ1. *it seems that if you bypass ST-boss and then zip back past where it spawns, below it, to get the 3 rings and then attempt to later engage ST-boss without first resetting the boundary the screen will lock just short of where their boss appears and you will be stuck there until timeout
to get the 3 in the wall as well as the cache of rings at the very top of the level right by the end: have slope glitch, find a nearby loopset that has 2 of them stacked vertically, manipulate the pathswapper inside the upper loop to block off its own entryway and open a path through the floor leading to the lower loop, jump down it and roll up the righthand side, maybe jumping, to get carried into the wall to the point where you collide with the red solidity layer which should propell you upward in the direction of the rings, then just press left or right to control your speed/upward momentum accordingly; should be able to run straight into the 3 rings and still have enough space to go straight up to the top of the screen before the wall ends, allowing to get the rest.
SOZ1: confirmed possible in debug mode testing, and i see no reason why it shouldn't work out in real play too. the method is to trigger the slope glitch for T, by getting him on an upward sandslide and then walking off screen with S. the closest ones to the 3 rings are on the bottom most path, there are 2 of them together (one might move down but whatever). then you have to make your way from there to the 3 rings via the normal path that would be required in a route anyway, so that's a bonus, but the trick is to keep T on screen with you the whole time and don't let him touch any sprites obviously. at the spring rope have S get the monitor and have T fly into the upper curve, hold the jump button, and it should push him into the wall and stop him just above the red solidity in the chamber to the right, allowing him to jump still (T is so short compared to S and K that he can't jump out of the normal red solidity areas) and then fly to get pushed up and into the next chamber, allowing him to zip to get the rings.
I'll edit this post later and provide a TL;DR/translation that's more intelligible.
Also, you might notice ICZ2 goes beyond the scope of your question, detailing a fairly complicated method of acquiring some rings in the vicinity of KTE's 'exclusive' Act 2 starting route. I just thought I'd include that while I was at it, just in case it might come in handy. I don't remember anymore, but the fact of those notes' existence at all awakens my suspicion that easier, simpler means of obtaining the pertinent rings might not or probably won't work for some reason.
I have done my own search too and I noticed that in DEZ1 there is a room closed by some spikes and inside the room there are an invincibility and 2 monitors rings.
I'm testing and as I can see is impossible to enter in this room with "normal" ways, the entrence is blocked by spikes and a invisible object inside the wall.
I have to explore more the zones, this TAS will be a headache and long I hope I can finish it someday, I do not like to leave things in the air
3 wall rings hidden just beneath the first spinning gravity orb near the start of the level, simply return to this spot with a lightning shield to collect
upcarry into lowered stairs above "hidden" area with 2 monitors + invin then precision jump to fall just right so that you can get close to each monitor and spindash to destroy them while still embedded in the wall, then eject
I'm not sure what I meant by 'upcarry,' probably meant to describe the type of Tails carry glitch: Sonic looking down and Tails carrying him up, or the reverse of that. Who knows, though, whether 'up' refers to the direction Sonic should look or the direction Tails should carry him. Either way, it's not a big deal, I trust you'll be able to figure it out one way or the other.
Amazing, now I see is possible to destroy the monitor, now Im not sure but I think I'll have to go back 2 times when I spindash next to 1 monitor I go back above of the ground, if under 1 level less I can jump and destroy 1, then I have to go back and repeat.
Link to video
When I can I'll do a video compilation of how to grab all the rings.
Now you could tell me how to grab the 6 rings of Knuckles in LBZ1 please?, or if I have to fight against the sonic or knuckles boss
Edit: when Tails has the slope glitch in SO1, the slope glitch is gone when Tails appear in the screen or when the sand wall is destroyed making impossible what you said
With LBZ1, you want to slope glitch into the walls above KTE's pre-sub-boss chamber and use Tails to collect the rings. You have to take Sonic's sub-boss because of the extra signpost monitor - KTE has no choice but to take his own because Sonic's won't load for him, IIRC. There's a "visual aid" or route map here.
Also there is a full route map for DEZ1, and DEZ2 for the heck of it, as well as a .gmv showing how to grab the monitors in a single pass and then progress into the lower shortcut as per the included route. Hopefully it doesn't desync; if it does, and you would like me to, I can at least record an .avi.
I guess you're right about SOZ1. However, I wonder, does it make sense that debug mode could interfere so that Tails retains his slope-glitched status while on screen? I know for a fact that if you can get him near the wall rings, by the springrope and monitor, he can get them, because I just watched that happen in an old trial run, where slope-glitched Tails remained on screen with debugged-Sonic (meaning debug was active in the level, and I had used it before, but at the time Tails was on screen I was not actively using it - Sonic was normal).
Oh, and your ICZ2 is good, but I seem to remember running diagonally through the wall, collecting the wall rings along the way, and coming out on top with the slope glitch still in tact, then grabbing the rings with Sonic with no need to wait for Tails to respawn. Accomplishing this would have involved the last 2 loops in the level, and the iced monitor in the top left corner of the upper path leading to those loops. So you might want to play around with it some more, or maybe I'll see if I can't record it myself this weekend and show you.
Thanks man, this will be very useful for me in the future, luckily your gmv does not desync, maybe you could record your MGZ2 gmv? that was deync for me.
I have this attemp made by Kaan55, showed me how to grab MGZ2 KTE rings. (he recorded ICZ2 too)
Link to video
But IDK if is more faster or slower than your gmv for the desync problems
And this is my HCZ1 TAS
Link to videoEdit: forgot what I said before about MGZ2 gmv, It was a problem with sound settings causing desyncs, but I see that the invisible wall in the sky blocks you when activating the earthquake event, I think Kaan55's method is better, I suppose.
Ah, good, yes, that's exactly the method I described, fundamentally. I'm glad to see it working, but I wonder why the roof barrier wasn't there that time? Well, at least we know it can work. However, there still remains the question of what route to use. I actually didn't know it was possible to exit the area via KTE's cutscene room without having entered through there in the first place. So, while the method of obtaining the rings is the same, the difference between the video's and my own route lies in the approach.
I would have come in from below, spending more time initially in the cutscene room but making it up on my way out. My route also precludes the need for the carry glitch, yet seemingly requires more backtracking. Beyond that, I see no significant difference, making it hard to speculate on which is faster - especially without looking at them in the context of their placement within their respective level routes, and comparing those. Whichever one proves ideal depends heavily on how well it synergizes with the broader route for the level, and whether it accords a faster route, overall. So really, I think your best bet would be to just experiment on your own if and when you come to that point in the official TAS, potentially trying both routes and seeing what works for you.
Also, awesome HCZ1! I especially liked how you handled the whole part with the lightning shield and the mass of rings on the ceiling. You nailed it. Well done.
Edit:Evil_3D wrote:
Edit: forgot what I said before about MGZ2 gmv, It was a problem with sound settings causing desyncs, but I see that the invisible wall in the sky blocks you when activating the earthquake event, I think Kaan55's method is better, I suppose.
Oh. Well then. Disregard most of what I just said.
Although, I thought I tried it both ways, with and without triggering the earthquake, in my recent tests, and the wall was there both times. I think I started from the same save point at the end of Act 1, rather than loading directly into Act 2 from level select. If Act 1 earthquakes affect this, somehow, that could be a problem. It might not matter, for all I know, but if you can, perhaps you should find out how Kaan55 got to Act 2...
Edit: forgot what I said before about MGZ2 gmv, It was a problem with sound settings causing desyncs, but I see that the invisible wall in the sky blocks you when activating the earthquake event, I think Kaan55's method is better, I suppose.
Oh. Well then. Disregard most of what I just said.
Although, I thought I tried it both ways, with and without triggering the earthquake, in my recent tests, and the wall was there both times. I think I started from the same save point at the end of Act 1, rather than loading directly into Act 2 from level select. If Act 1 earthquakes affect this, somehow, that could be a problem. It might not matter, for all I know, but if you can, perhaps you should find out how Kaan55 got to Act 2...
I try a test playing MGZ1 by activating some events (faces, drills, spins, boss), and surprisingly the wall in ACT 2 was not solid and I can pass trough him, I'm not sure how this wall is trigger, but I think it's an ACT2 event that activates it.
Marzo once said that MGZ 1/2 use the same address / values in their events, but I'm not sure which specifically activates the wall in the rooft in ACT2.
btw I have to do more research.
The wall at the top of MGZ2 rises slowly once triggered; if you can trigger it early enough, it will have moved high enough that you can go under it. But you can't zip while it is moving, being inside a wall during that time is fatal.
I don't remember exactly how it works (it has been a few years), and I don't have access to my notes now; but I had figured out the speed of the rising wall, and how to trigger it. I remember that going above the level in a certain range of positions would mistakenly trigger it.
I had to figure it out to understand how to fight Knuckles' boss from above the screen as Sonic+Tails or Tails solo (only Tails solo run ended up using it because I figured out how to skip MGZ2 as Sonic+Tails, and it was faster overall).
