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Posted: 12/7/2007 3:51 AM
Post subject: Wolverine
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p0rtal_0f_rain
Banned User
Joined: 12/5/2007
Posts: 742
Location: Gone
Okay, this could be an interesting game. Some of the levels may look easy but I do not know how using tool-assistants can come into play. I have never beated this game before, but the trick to beating the game is knocking the invincible Sabretooth off the edge of a cliff. Without cheats, I can go far as level #4 Trial by Water, but anyone might go farther than that.
Posted: 12/10/2007 3:22 PM
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p0rtal_0f_rain
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Joined: 12/5/2007
Posts: 742
Location: Gone
Okay, on the first try using FCE, I pulled 2360 frames (0:39) from the power-on to the end of the first stage (before Sabretooth's first skit). I have not used any tool-assists so far. Hell, I don't even know what they are and how they work to one's advantage. It gets tougher beyond Wolverine's 1st trial, so brains, strategy, and luck manipulation is the key. Taking damage to save time isn't going to help, because no enemies will push you. They drain your strength quickly instead.
Posted: 12/10/2007 3:48 PM
(Edited: 12/10/2007 4:03 PM)
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p0rtal_0f_rain
Banned User
Joined: 12/5/2007
Posts: 742
Location: Gone
Slight improvement between power-on and end of 1st stage - 2328 frames now, about 32 frames saved. If someone out there can use a tool assist, I predict the player might beat the first level within 2290 frames. [removed]
Posted: 12/10/2007 3:56 PM
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mmbossman
Experienced player (822)
Joined: 11/18/2006
Posts: 2426
Location: Back where I belong
GBx TAS of 2008
If you're using save states and an emulator, you're making a tool-assisted run. True, there are programs designed for specific games to brute-force solutions, but the majority of the tool assistance seen on this site is just save states, an emulator, and slowdown (or frame advance). Also, it's possible to edit your posts by clicking on the little "Edit" button on the upper right corner of your posts. Try to avoid triple posting unless each post has three completely different topics, it's frowned upon here. .I'll watch your movie and give you some feedback soon. I'm having problems downloading your zip file, the site keeps timing out. You can upload to Microstorage for movies and WIPs created for this site.
Living Well Is The Best Revenge My Personal Page
Posted: 12/10/2007 4:03 PM
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p0rtal_0f_rain
Banned User
Joined: 12/5/2007
Posts: 742
Location: Gone
Re-uploaded, sorry http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/284354884/symbolic-x-wolverine-demo.fcm
Posted: 12/10/2007 4:29 PM
(Edited: 12/10/2007 5:32 PM)
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mmbossman
Experienced player (822)
Joined: 11/18/2006
Posts: 2426
Location: Back where I belong
GBx TAS of 2008
I did a quick workup of this, and managed to save about 40 frames off of your run. I would suggest learning to use savestates and slowdown if you haven't already (I'm assuming you didn't use savestates, because the "undo" section on the movie load page said 0). I stopped timing on the frame that wolverine disappears into the door, you got 1951 (I believe), I ended up with 1909 frames. Here's my WIP for you to look at I'd suggest taking a look at the FAQs to help answer some questions you may have.
Living Well Is The Best Revenge My Personal Page
Posted: 12/10/2007 5:22 PM
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p0rtal_0f_rain
Banned User
Joined: 12/5/2007
Posts: 742
Location: Gone
Yeah, I knew someone would do it better, lol... =)) What made me think was that if I reloaded a savestate while recording an FCM, I thought it would add on to the movie and not cover all the screw-ups.
Posted: 12/10/2007 7:53 PM
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Sticky
Joined: 2/26/2007
Posts: 1360
Location: Minnesota
fuck this game's difficulty... i got past level 1 with no lives, and then fell like a ton of adamantium on level two. i will help where i can, but due to my current state of mac computing it will not be often T_T. we need more mac emulators! EDIT: it seems to me you wait longer than necessary on jumps. instead of jumping on the first possible frame you may wait a few before pressing jump again. this was all naked-eye observation, so i may be wrong. Also, is there a reason you whipped out your claws? wolverine's claws are badass [/geek-out] but does it cost frames for an animation or requires you to stop forward movement in order to press the correct buttons? anyways, first tas attempts are really difficult, but really helpful to the player (you). dont give up hope or get pissed off because we took this thing apart, it wasnt personal. christ, you should see my first attempts at X-men compared to jaysmad's work... that was my first attempt at running anything, and, well, it sucked bad.
adelikat wrote:
I very much agree with this post.
Bobmario511 wrote:
Forget party hats, Christmas tree hats all the way man.
Posted: 12/11/2007 1:51 AM
Quote
p0rtal_0f_rain
Banned User
Joined: 12/5/2007
Posts: 742
Location: Gone
Yeah, I pulled out wolverine's claws while moving - just to show off in that level. And as long as you hold down the left/right key while pushing select to activate the claws, it doesn't cost a frame. I mean, I've seen some show-offs in the other speedruns - one example is the break-dance in the first stage boss of Journey to Silius.
stickyman05 wrote:
Also, is there a reason you whipped out your claws? wolverine's claws are badass [/geek-out] but does it cost frames for an animation or requires you to stop forward movement in order to press the correct buttons?
One thing is for sure. It does cost a few extra frames to jump from one spot to another, than actually running to it. Also, jump + punch should defeat enemies quicker than just standing there punching. Oh, and I been concentrating in the second stage of Wolverine (Trial by Air) and that does take a lot of jumping and maybe even emulator slow-downs. Of course we all know that perfect timing of jumping and luck manipulation is the only way of getting through this stage quickly. Oh, and don't even think of going through a secret door that would give Wolverine 10 havok if you're trying to perform a speed run through this stage.
Posted: 1/4/2012 8:36 PM
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goofydylan8
Experienced player (508)
Joined: 11/2/2010
Posts: 359
So I decided to give this game a try and here is my first attempt. It finishes all levels in 8 minutes 22.25 seconds. I could only find one real time speed run to compare it to here and I beat this run by a little over 2 minutes. What I have found out so far about this run is this: *It is faster to run rather than jump (but this causes you to lose health) and way faster than standing and punching. *You start out with 48 life and due to the first point planning of when to take damage is very important. *If you punch when you use your claws you lose 1 hp point. *If your health gets to 16 or below you are no longer allowed to use your claws and punches without claws are too weak to kill opponents with one hit. *You have to avoid hitting too many opponents or else you what the game calls "Bezerker." This is bad because you look all control over jump length and you are constantly punching and kicking so you are slowed down while running. Overall I am happy with the run as it is. I am going to retry a few of the levels to see if I can take damage at different places to speed up the run a little. Let me know what you all think. (Also I only use TASEdit which is why rerecord count is 0)
Posted: 1/4/2012 8:54 PM
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feos
Site Admin, Skilled player (1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11268
Location: RU
NES TAS of 2011
Looks okay. The only thing I'd suggest to check is precise speed control. For example, you can lose a pixel if you hit a corner of the platform and wait until Wolverine flies over it. Try to avoid hitting the platform, to be above the corner with non-zero speed already. How many speed levels does this game have? Also, the RAM speed value can drop away all floor ejections, so that you won't see how much speed you gained with these. That's why you may need a script displaying actual sprite speed, calculating it from the previous frame position. EDIT: Fix your movie's header. 
version 3
emuVersion 21050
rerecordCount 0
palFlag 0
romFilename Wolverine (U)
romChecksum base64:Xqa7fymVqPxHoQVBK4irdg==
guid 04013987-D91D-3B3D-20F4-4AB0FD07C9CF
fourscore 1
microphone 0
port0 3523512
port1 0
port2 0
FDS 0
NewPPU 0
length 30135
These lines shall contain: fourscore 0 port0 1 That'a a glitch of the current tasedit.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Posted: 1/4/2012 10:15 PM
Quote
goofydylan8
Experienced player (508)
Joined: 11/2/2010
Posts: 359
Yeah I need to look through a few of those corner situations. Corner hitting sometimes can be the best result because missing the corner can result in being the air longer which can be slower but I do need to look into this more. X-Direction maximum speed is 2 or -2 if you are moving to the left. When jumping your speed can either be a 2 or a 1 but for the life of me I cannot determine what causes it to alternate between a 1 and a 2 because it does not appear to follow a set pattern. The Y-Direction maximum speed that I have seen is -2 when moving up or 5 when moving down though it only seems to hit this speed for one frame and then hits a terminal speed of 4. The X-Speed value of 0581 appears to always be accurate based on the x-postion value. The Y-Speed value 058C (as you said) does drop out on floor ejections so I may need to look into these to see if they can save some frames as they result in speeds of 7 or 8. As I said it looks like I have a bit of work to redo on these levels but I am happy with it as a first run through. Lastly that glitch in header, does it actually affect the movie at all or is it just for bookkeeping purposes? I am fine changing it I am just curious.
Posted: 1/4/2012 10:25 PM
Quote
AnS
Emulator Coder, Experienced player (723)
Joined: 2/23/2006
Posts: 682
goofydylan8 wrote:
Lastly that glitch in header, does it actually affect the movie at all or is it just for bookkeeping purposes? I am fine changing it I am just curious.
port0 3523512 will cause first joypad malfunction, so after replaying your FM2 FCEUX won't recognize manual 1P input until restart. As for fourscore, feos is wrong, you should not change it to zero unless you also delete last 2 joypads. So I'd say, leave fourscore 1, only fix port0.
Posted: 1/4/2012 11:10 PM
Quote
goofydylan8
Experienced player (508)
Joined: 11/2/2010
Posts: 359
Thanks for that explanation. So that means I can wait to change that until right before I submit correct as it won't affect me if I only work in TASEdit? Just want to make sure because I use the export to fm2 all the time and it could become cumbersome if it changes it each time. And on the video you were correct feos. I went through level 2 avoiding hitting corners (level 1 every time the corner hits happened they were faster than trying to avoid it) and it already saved 50 frames which is excellent so I will most definitely do that for the rest as this could save a few more seconds and hopefully with a new strategy on a level I may be able to get this really close to 8 minutes. The only bad news is that whatever the RNG is that determines what the x velocity is through the air (aka whether it is 1 or 2) is dependent on the previous level which means I have to go through and correct all the other levels, which I was planning on doing anyways but it is better when it just works. I also have no idea what factors control whether it will be a 1 or 2 so I need to experiment with that. I do not believe enemies are dependent on previous levels but I can't tell for sure as my position is different.
Posted: 1/4/2012 11:27 PM
Quote
feos
Site Admin, Skilled player (1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11268
Location: RU
NES TAS of 2011
You need to fix the slot value only once (then you load the movie, open tasedit, it shall now export with correct value). Also, you can use "Save project as" option instead of exporting fm2.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Posted: 1/4/2012 11:53 PM
Quote
Brandon
He/Him
Editor, Player (190)
Joined: 11/21/2010
Posts: 913
Location: Tennessee
I haven't done any research on this game specifically, but it seems to be a prequel to Arcade's Revenge, the game I'm TASing, and I believe much of the mechanics have been ported from it. You can watch the Wolverine sections of my WIP, and you're welcome to query me on the IRC and discuss it.
All the best, Brandon Evans
Posted: 1/5/2012 12:10 AM
Post subject: wolverine wip-1: youtube
Quote
antd
Joined: 3/18/2006
Posts: 971
Location: Great Britain
Link to video
goofydylan8 wrote:
So I decided to give this game a try and here is my first attempt. It finishes all levels in 8 minutes 22.25 seconds. I could only find one real time speed run to compare it to here and I beat this run by a little over 2 minutes. What I have found out so far about this run is this: *It is faster to run rather than jump (but this causes you to lose health) and way faster than standing and punching. *You start out with 48 life and due to the first point planning of when to take damage is very important. *If you punch when you use your claws you lose 1 hp point. *If your health gets to 16 or below you are no longer allowed to use your claws and punches without claws are too weak to kill opponents with one hit. *You have to avoid hitting too many opponents or else you what the game calls "Bezerker." This is bad because you look all control over jump length and you are constantly punching and kicking so you are slowed down while running. Overall I am happy with the run as it is. I am going to retry a few of the levels to see if I can take damage at different places to speed up the run a little. Let me know what you all think.
Posted: 1/5/2012 1:44 AM
Quote
Sticky
Joined: 2/26/2007
Posts: 1360
Location: Minnesota
At 4:57 there is a massive fire blocking your way to the exit. If you had enough life, would you be able to go through the fire instead of around it, or is it an instant death trap? It would save an easy 3-7 seconds.
adelikat wrote:
I very much agree with this post.
Bobmario511 wrote:
Forget party hats, Christmas tree hats all the way man.
Posted: 1/5/2012 5:49 AM
Quote
goofydylan8
Experienced player (508)
Joined: 11/2/2010
Posts: 359
The huge fire next to where Wolverine jumps at 4:57 is instant death when you contact it so you have to go around. Even if you add a cheat so that your life does not decrease you still die there regardless so that one won't help. I am making progress and have cut about 2 and a half seconds after around 2 levels. EDIT I finished my second version as shown here. I managed to save frames on all levels excluding the first one. In total 362 frames or 6.033 seconds were saved from my previous attempt placing the video at 8 minutes 16.217 seconds. This makes it about 2 minutes 12 seconds faster than the real time speed run. Unless I can find some other game changer or someone else knows something this may be the fastest I know to get it.
Posted: 1/5/2012 4:58 PM
Post subject: wolverine wip-2: youtube
Quote
antd
Joined: 3/18/2006
Posts: 971
Location: Great Britain
Link to video
goofydylan8 wrote:
I finished my second version as shown here. I managed to save frames on all levels excluding the first one. In total 362 frames or 6.033 seconds were saved from my previous attempt placing the video at 8 minutes 16.217 seconds. This makes it about 2 minutes 12 seconds faster than the real time speed run.
Posted: 1/5/2012 5:36 PM
Quote
feos
Site Admin, Skilled player (1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11268
Location: RU
NES TAS of 2011
Still looks like you lose vertical speed flying up from under the corner. Is it true?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Posted: 1/5/2012 6:59 PM
Quote
goofydylan8
Experienced player (508)
Joined: 11/2/2010
Posts: 359
Do you mean where I get into the floor and become ejected out the top of the platform or do you mean where I hit the corner and just slide up the side? If you mean the corner slides than here are the two explanations. On certain corners because of the size of the platforms that you are able to jump from to get to the higher level you can slide up the wall holding right or you can jump straight in the air (not holding right) and then move over without hitting the wall so that it causes no frame of zero X-Speed. These have either resulted in identical speeds or in some situations that the wall slide for 1 frame was quicker as it caused you to land a frame earlier. The other corner hitting situation is where I barely hit a corner for 1 frame but if I adjusted the frame where I jumped or if I held jump for an extra frame I could clear it without hitting the corner which stops the X-Speed but allows the Y-Speed to continue as always. For all corners I have tested which way was faster which was inconsistent due to the 1 or 2 velocity. If you mean the floor ejection on platforms than it is also quicker the way it is shown in the video. The reason is that you still have to go through the deceleration to 0 Y velocity and begin "falling" back down regardless of whether you land in or on top of the platform. In the situations where I use floor ejection it is the faster choice as I tested both. I did fix a lot of corners and that is where probably 2 of the 6 seconds of improvements come from but unless there is a specific corner I feel fairly confident that I have tested all the of options when it comes to going around the corners in the fastest manner. The problem is due to the RNG on the jumping speed. Your y-speed alternates between 1, 2 and rarely 3 for the first portion of the jump. Then your y-speed alternates between 1 and 0 for the portion where you are hitting the top of your arch and then that process repeats in the opposite direction until you alternate between -3 and -4 with rare appearances by -5. With the RNG it could be that you get almost exclusively 2's while jumping or exclusively 1's and this is dependent on what frame you begin jumping and for how long you hold the jump button. This causes different strategies to work best in different situations. Example of the inconsistency. At frame 21825 (6:03 in the YT2) I jump from a platform pass through another and then land on a lower platform. In WIP1 I hold jump for 2 frames and land on this platform and it worked fine. In this version if I jump for 2 frames I either miss both platforms entirely or I land on the upper platform. Yet if I jump for 3 frames I am able to land on the lower platform like I originally wanted to.
Posted: 1/5/2012 7:14 PM
Quote
feos
Site Admin, Skilled player (1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11268
Location: RU
NES TAS of 2011
Sorry, I meant SWIMMING, lol.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Posted: 1/6/2012 3:45 AM
Quote
goofydylan8
Experienced player (508)
Joined: 11/2/2010
Posts: 359
Oh wow. Well I feel foolish for the extent that I went into the last paragraph then. Swimming up early does cause you to stop having vertical speed when you clip the corner but it does not negatively affect your time up. Until your entire hit box is to the right of the corner you cannot get any higher than the position you are in when you hit the top of the corner. Swimming works in the same manner as jumping randomly alternating 1 and 2 velocities which starts the first time you press the b button so it doesn't adversely affect you to do it early. Looking at it I get that it probably doesn't look as "TAS'ed" as going around it without hitting it but unless people really have a problem with it I don't think I am going to go back through and adjust it because it could affect the randomness of swimming and jumping and I don't want to redo all the levels again to not save anytime.
Posted: 1/6/2012 8:08 AM
Quote
feos
Site Admin, Skilled player (1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11268
Location: RU
NES TAS of 2011
Simple description of that in the submission text will cause no problems I think.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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