Topic by nitsuja

Posted: 3/8/2009 11:05 PM
(Edited: 3/9/2009 1:27 AM)

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nitsuja

Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1300)

Joined: 12/21/2004
Posts: 2687

First, I agree with Catastrophe that the best strategies for a human to do are not necessarily the fastest in a TAS, which means that simply minimizing total time like normal might make for an interesting TAS after all. It does seem like a long shot, but it's probably the first thing that should be attempted and it would help put everything else in context. Failing that, I think we can come up with something better than forbidding the use of a particular set of abilities. How about using these priorities: 1: fewest battles 2: fastest time per battle that's entered 3: fastest time total To further explain what that set of priorities implies: Because of priority #1, grinding on random battles is not allowed. Because of priority #2, wasting time in one battle to save time in a later battle is not allowed, but anything that can be done in-between battles to make the next battle faster must be done. Because of priority #3, wasting time for no reason in-between or across battles isn't allowed. Pretty much, these priorities guarantee "forward progression" without specifically restricting the use of any skills. Alternatively, how about beating the game in a minimum number of turns instead of a minimum amount of time? A turn is every time any character's turn comes up, whether they're friend or enemy, even if they only move or wait on that turn. If acquiring the calculator would take a HUGE number of turns then that goal might be good enough on its own when coupled with time as a secondary goal, but if that's not the case, you could define your priorities in a similar way to the previous ones: 1: fewest battles 2: fewest turns per battle that's entered 3: fewest turns total 4: fastest time These could all be called "arbitrary rules" of course, but I think having goals like "fewest turns per battle" is more defensible than arbitrary restrictions like "not allowed to use use skill X" or "not allowed to equip item Y" or "not allowed to press more than one button at the same time". In a way, these suggestions are similar to how we aim primarily for "best in-game time" in some Sonic games, with overall time a secondary goal. Of course, the opportunity to demonstrate surprisingly-game-breaking stuff is diminished with rules like these, but if we know exactly what that stuff is and that we don't want to see it because it's boring, then I think it would be justified. EDIT: But really, if someone can find a way to make this game not boring to watch, that would probably be the biggest accomplishment right there and everything else could follow...

Posted: 3/9/2009 12:26 AM

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Rising_Tempest

Player (166)

Joined: 4/27/2006
Posts: 304
Location: Eastern Canada

The fastest way strikes me as "glitch-learn teleport/teleport behind enemy leader as a knight/attack/critical hit/instant win". For battels where you have to kill everyone, just manipulate critical hits/knockback evasion and what have you with a full team. Later, duping Excaliburs would give your whole team auto-haste so you'll actually start going first despite being underlevelled from total lack of any grinding.

Posted: 3/9/2009 12:32 AM

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Rising_Tempest

Player (166)

Joined: 4/27/2006
Posts: 304
Location: Eastern Canada

Hmm, also it's probably important to manipulate so that your team all wind up having the same zodiac; and enter battles at the right time so that the enemies that can be randomly generated have max compatibility for higher damage. I don't know which sign to go with offhand, since I can't remember what the majority of bosses/enemy leaders would have good/best compatibility with. Also placement on the map determines turn order for units with matching speed scores, this'll probably come into play a few times when placing units on the battlefield (Just throwing some ideas out)

Posted: 3/9/2009 6:33 AM

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PSI_Slime

Joined: 12/30/2008
Posts: 45
Location: Bubbling nearby...

In another Final Fantasy Tactics topic, someone brought up what is generally referred to as "Straight Character Challenges" on the net. It consists of playing the game with all characters being only one single class (with no abilities from any other class, and no secondary skill sets from another class). Five Geomancers is kinda fun. Status effects <3. Here's my message from the other topic.

PSI Slime wrote:

A game where all characters use only one specific job throughout the entire game is most often referred to as a "Straight Character Challenge" throughout the net. There's some FAQs about it on the GameFAQs walkthroughs, and there's a player who completed every single one of them and ranked them in order of difficulty from his experience. I myself play them a lot. I have yet to beat any, but I managed to reach chapter 4 on a few of them (geomancer, dancer, archer, archer), intentionally avoiding some of the easy ones like black mage and especially ninja. http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/genmessage.php?board=197339&topic=47044410 These challenges are, imo, a lot more entertaining than speeding through the game the fastest possible way (calculators). They are all unique ways to play the game. Think of it like Super Mario Bros 2a, where Mario, Luigi, Princess and Toad are all playable characters. Now, imagine there was 20 characters instead of four, all with different playing styles like these four, and you'd be going through the game with only one of them throughout the whole game. I know that on top of the main run, there's a "Princess only" run already. And I'm sure that if there was a Toad only, Luigi only or Mario only run, it would be published as well. The difference here is that in FFT's Straight Character Challenge, it remains entertaining throughout the whole run, as all classes are very different in their own way, it feels less repetitive than the SMB2a example I came up with. I do hope to see FFT SCC TASes. (omg, acronyms)

Seriously, other than "normal games"... I am 100% sure that SCC's would be very entertaining to watch. There's also so many classes available! I'll also add the following link, an SCC guide. http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/psx/file/197339/11496

I lurk, okay?

Posted: 4/14/2009 6:57 PM

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nesrocks

He/Him

Player (241)

Joined: 5/1/2004
Posts: 4096
Location: Rio, Brazil

But we wouldn't have many FFT videos published (if any), so variation is a good thing. Is there anything else that can be extremely abused in a "-uses No calculators" run? The SCC sounds like something new for me to try, as I've already done the ramza only challenge.

aka Nesrocks http://www.youtube.com/user/UoBtExFODA https://nesrocks.com https://twitter.com/bitinkstudios

Posted: 5/1/2009 10:06 PM

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nifboy

Former player

Joined: 5/31/2004
Posts: 375

As I recall, there's a "no cross-class" requirement that makes Calculators the hardest class to SCC, since you have no spells to use Math skill with. Then again, watching Ramza poke things with a stick for hours on end might not be the most interesting thing in the world.

Posted: 5/7/2009 6:07 AM

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Acheron86

Joined: 8/23/2008
Posts: 417

nifboy wrote:

As I recall, there's a "no cross-class" requirement that makes Calculators the hardest class to SCC, since you have no spells to use Math skill with.

I am under the impression that no one has actually completed the purist calculator SCC challenge. While I don't think it'd be entertaining in the "this run should be published" sense, it would still be quite the feat, and us FFT fanatics would probably enjoy watching it, so it's not a total waste of time. Still, this game needs a run done. I'd expect the "fastest possible time" goal would be rather boring, so maybe a "sacrifices speed for entertainment" run would be better. I'd enjoy watching mages land 1% chance spells, Ramza narrowly avoiding 1-shot death, teleports across the entire battlefield, etc.

I will not use self-reference in my signature.

Posted: 7/18/2009 9:21 PM

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p4wn3r

Player (42)

Joined: 12/27/2008
Posts: 873
Location: Germany

The Pure Calculator SCC is possible. IIRC UltimaterializerX, from GameFAQs forums was the first to complete it. But it involved an enourmous prepararion on Chap 1 to make an Auto-Potion Delita knight, getting equipment drops from random encounters, leveling up the characters and then using the degenerator trap to level them down for the chocobo fight late in the game, and finally have the calcs hit themselves in the Rofel battle to level from 70 to 99 to survive Altima's battle. A TAS could reduce the problems with manipulation, but even though, it would take ages to finish the battles, and the run wouldn't be published in a thousand years. I only see a good FFT speedrun if a game-breaking glitch that skips a large part of the game is discovered, maybe via save-corruption. TASing the game takes a lot of skills, but I still think the battles are too repetitive and the tons of unskippable cutscenes don't help either.

Posted: 7/19/2009 3:05 AM

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superjupi

Joined: 10/15/2007
Posts: 685

Yeah, I don't see myself finishing this run any time soon. And I'm not even doing a silly arbitrary restriction challenge, either. I just know I'll never be satisfied that what I come out with is truly the fastest way, and it will inevitably be too long of a movie to ever consider being published, and honestly, even I wouldn't want to watch it when it's finished. I still want to actually finish it, however. Just don't plan on seeing it anytime soon, or next year.

Kirby said so, so it must be true. ( >'.')>

Posted: 7/19/2009 7:08 AM

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pirate_sephiroth

Active player (308)

Joined: 2/28/2006
Posts: 2275
Location: Milky Way -> Earth -> Brazil

omg she was making a run

"Genuine self-esteem, however, consists not of causeless feelings, but of certain knowledge about yourself. It rests on the conviction that you — by your choices, effort and actions — have made yourself into the kind of person able to deal with reality. It is the conviction — based on the evidence of your own volitional functioning — that you are fundamentally able to succeed in life and, therefore, are deserving of that success." - Onkar Ghate

Bisqwit wrote:

Drama, too long, didn't read, lol.

Posted: 7/19/2009 12:34 PM

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superjupi

Joined: 10/15/2007
Posts: 685

>.>

Kirby said so, so it must be true. ( >'.')>

Posted: 7/19/2009 12:53 PM

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MezzoDragon

He/Him

Joined: 5/27/2007
Posts: 120

I second your response, superjupi.

Posted: 7/19/2009 4:27 PM

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superjupi

Joined: 10/15/2007
Posts: 685

Anyway, yes, as discussed in the OTHER FFT thread, which predates this one - and thusly, this should have been merged or closed - I'd been working on a run of this game. Actually, I have three projects going at the moment, but this is the furthest along. It's also the one I've been working on the least lately.

Kirby said so, so it must be true. ( >'.')>

Posted: 8/10/2009 7:21 AM

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System_Error

Joined: 7/25/2007
Posts: 109

Fuck SCCs. Do a tough SSCC. That'll impress.

Posted: 8/29/2009 7:07 PM

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Callmewoof

Joined: 5/11/2006
Posts: 71

A SSCC sounds awesome, but no matter how you manipulate it I just see it taking... hours. 5+. And I apologize that this second topic was created, I didn't know about the other one when I made this (a long time ago). :)

Samus taught us that a girl doesn't need brains to be successful. Brains are giant, evil, and vulnerable to missiles.

Posted: 8/30/2009 4:47 AM

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superjupi

Joined: 10/15/2007
Posts: 685

No matter, this was the topic that actually garnered a response.

Kirby said so, so it must be true. ( >'.')>

Posted: 12/28/2009 3:59 PM
(Edited: 1/18/2010 4:30 AM)

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Whelkman

Joined: 7/7/2007
Posts: 161

EDIT: below was determined to be due to an emulation bug. It can be worked around by launching Final Fantasy Tactics via "Run CD Through BIOS" rather than "Run CD". Starting the game too quickly triggers a bug which freezes the AI on Gafgarion's starting turn: EDIT: links removed. I have not yet investigated the cause, but it seems the game fails to load fully either the AI code or the battle stats required for AI decision making. I plan to pick this up again once issues with Lua are worked out with pcsx-rr. I can say the failure point is prior to Orbonne Monastery.

Posted: 12/28/2009 4:36 PM

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nesrocks

He/Him

Player (241)

Joined: 5/1/2004
Posts: 4096
Location: Rio, Brazil

Whelkman wrote:

Starting the game too quickly triggers a bug which freezes the AI on Gafgarion's starting turn: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrqeW9aMETI http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2275704/TAS/Final%20Fantasy%20Tactics/Final%20Fantasy%20Tactics%20-%20Tool%20Assisted%20AI%20bug.pxm I have not yet investigated the cause, but it seems the game fails to load fully either the AI code or the battle stats required for AI decision making. I plan to pick this up again once issues with Lua are worked out with pcsx-rr. I can say the failure point is prior to Orbonne Monastery.

Weird. Could that be an emulator bug?

aka Nesrocks http://www.youtube.com/user/UoBtExFODA https://nesrocks.com https://twitter.com/bitinkstudios

Posted: 12/28/2009 4:52 PM

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Whelkman

Joined: 7/7/2007
Posts: 161

FODA wrote:

Weird. Could that be an emulator bug?

You got me. Anything's possible. I can say the bug persists regardless of memory card presence and that it's not down to an exact frame. FFT seeds well in advance, though, without algorithmic knowledge, you can't see the results until showtime. My hunch is that first battle stats are seeded during the FMV "castle raid" intro and that my interrupting it on the first possible frame is an unchecked race condition. All conjecture until I get back to it, though.

Posted: 12/29/2009 4:30 AM

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Whelkman

Joined: 7/7/2007
Posts: 161

It seems this is an emu bug after all. But now I can't get Gafgarion to move at all no matter what I do. What the hell. I was playing the game normally just last week. I can't even get it to work with the regular PCSX now. Works fine in pSX, though. Sorry for the false report, guys. I'm stumped, though. How irritating.

Posted: 12/29/2009 4:51 AM

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Whelkman

Joined: 7/7/2007
Posts: 161

It looks like running the game via "Run CD" vs. "Run CD Through BIOS" may be the culprit. Can someone confirm? I'm using version is 1001 if it makes a difference.

Posted: 1/23/2010 6:04 AM

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arukAdo

Experienced player (954)

Joined: 12/3/2008
Posts: 936
Location: Castle Keep

If you are recording a movie, you should not use run cd or run bios, after you start movie (replay or record new one) it will boot up, if you just want to play without recording movie try the official build instead i guess. Now about this game, what was you going for ? are you going to disable all the display ? by that i mean, this is a game where you can disable most everything that appear on screen, like spell names/animations, movements on map ect... ect... (theres even a setting for text speed) From a pure speedrun point of view, disabling everything is the fastest, obviously, but the problem is then movie = 0 entertainment and probably unwatchable, its like playing chess. (not even talking about the calculator stuff here... not the point)

Tasvideos.org personal page

Posted: 1/23/2010 6:25 AM

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Whelkman

Joined: 7/7/2007
Posts: 161

arukAdo wrote:

If you are recording a movie, you should not use run cd or run bios

The problem is FFT is not possible to play at all in pcsx-rr without launching via BIOS.

arukAdo wrote:

what was you going for ?

I really just wanted to play around with it. I found the bugs discouraging and haven't done much since my last postings other than work out a skeleton of a crit script.

arukAdo wrote:

movie = 0 entertainment and probably unwatchable, its like playing chess.

Pretty much anything you do with this game is going to be "boring" to people who aren't fans of it. FFT literally is a chess game and its most ardent fans tend to be chess players. Whatever I end up doing, in the unlikely event I complete it, certainly would not be accepted by the site.

arukAdo wrote:

this is a game where you can disable [...] movements on map

False. Map movements cannot be disabled.

arukAdo wrote:

theres even a setting for text speed

Which is irrelevant. Pressing circle or square for "turbo text" advances dialog at the same speed regardless of setting. Any dialog that cannot be accelerated is similarly unaffected by the text speed setting.

Posted: 1/23/2010 6:01 PM

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arukAdo

Experienced player (954)

Joined: 12/3/2008
Posts: 936
Location: Castle Keep

No you dont get what im saying. Theres a slight different between chess, and chess with some animations around, letting aside the calculator matter, if you just move/use basic weapons, it look like chess, but if you display summon magic and such, it will barely start to look like a final fantasy movie, wich can be somewhat entertaining if you are rpg lover. The game is not a chess game, its a good game, but if the only display is a camera moving around very fast and no magic ect shown then it look like chess. In others words going sloppier in order to let the audiance see some skills/spells and stuffs. That what i was asking basicly, are you going to sacrify speed over entertainment

Tasvideos.org personal page

Posted: 1/23/2010 6:30 PM

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Whelkman

Joined: 7/7/2007
Posts: 161

Like I said, it's highly unlikely I'm going to wind up with anything productive. The best I'll probably end up doing is creating some scripts potentially useful to others. If anyone's going to produce something targeted toward a general audience, it won't be me.