Topic by samurai_goroh

Posted: 11/18/2012 8:05 PM

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samurai_goroh

Editor, Player (53)

Joined: 12/25/2004
Posts: 634
Location: Aguascalientes, Mexico

I like the idea of having a real-time run on the normal mode & in-game time on the time attack mode. I'm looking forward to both of the runs diggidoyo :)

I'm the best in the Universe! Remember that!

Posted: 11/22/2012 3:26 PM

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flashthe

Joined: 6/24/2007
Posts: 119

the magma man time attack looks awesome

Posted: 11/25/2012 11:43 PM
(Edited: 11/26/2012 12:11 AM)

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diggidoyo

Experienced player (580)

Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 427
Location: Oregon

Thanks for the feedback guys. I completed the next stage (Galaxy Man), but at this point I'm a little stuck. Continuing on with the weakness order brings up Jewel Man, but I lose a lot of time on the rock mini-boss without Hornet Man's weapon to lure him out. After that comes plug man and without the rush jet, I'll be hindered by the disappearing blocks. I didn't realize until now that unlike Mega Man 10, I have to complete 5 stages before I'm awarded the rush jet (MM10 only required 4). The stages that benefit the most from the jet are Plug Man, Tornado Man, and possibly Splash Woman. So at this point, I'm going to either need to continue with the weakness order and suffer the slowdowns, buster-fight Hornet Man out of order to bring his weapon into play, or scrap the route entirely for the Tornado Man start. I've already finished the rest of Tornado Man's stage but, unfortunately, due to the achievement pop-ups, I get to the boss with horrible RNG luck and lose a ton of time manipulating his optimal pattern. The more I play that route the more it seems unfavorable for real-time. But I should work it all out eventually. For now here's Galaxy Man. Link to video

Posted: 11/26/2012 12:07 AM

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TheKDX7

He/Him

Player (115)

Joined: 7/9/2011
Posts: 392
Location: Switzerland

Wow incredible

Posted: 11/26/2012 3:30 PM

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sonicpacker

Active player (419)

Joined: 9/21/2009
Posts: 1047
Location: California

TheKDX7 wrote:

Wow incredible

https://personalitygrowth.com/entp-myths-stereotypes-misconceptions-cliches-and-tropes-that-are-inaccurate/

Posted: 11/26/2012 7:17 PM

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AngerFist

Active player (432)

Joined: 4/21/2004
Posts: 3517
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

Restart Diggi. It's only a stage or two. Also, realtime looks 1000 times more smoother than an in-game run and you know the reason.

Nitrogenesis wrote:

Guys I come from the DidyKnogRacist communite, and you are all wrong, tihs is the run of the mileniun and everyone who says otherwise dosnt know any bater! I found this run vary ease to masturbate too!!!! Don't fuck with me, I know this game so that mean I'm always right!StupedfackincommunityTASVideoz!!!!!!

Arc wrote:

I enjoyed this movie in which hands firmly gripping a shaft lead to balls deep in multiple holes.

natt wrote:

I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but as a point of fact C# is literally the first goddamn thing on that fucking page you linked did you even fucking read it

Cooljay wrote:

Mayor Haggar and Cody are such nice people for the community. Metro City's hospitals reached an all time new record of incoming patients due to their great efforts :P

Posted: 11/26/2012 7:41 PM

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diggidoyo

Experienced player (580)

Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 427
Location: Oregon

Oh, don't worry. I have no intention of finishing a sup-optimal TAS. I'm currently working through all the possible routes simultaneously to see which will end up being the best. The one I posted above is showing the most promise so far.

Posted: 3/3/2013 3:21 PM

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diggidoyo

Experienced player (580)

Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 427
Location: Oregon

At long last, with a huge thanks to delroth and darkeye, we now have a working weapon switching code for Mega Man 9. The code can be found here, and it works on both the Dolphin emulator as well as the actual Wii console. Details on how to enable the code in Dolphin can be found here: http://superstargames.ucoz.com/forum/18-55-1 Using this code I've restarted my run, but I am still minimizing real time. So far, I have saved 478 frames because of new quick switching tricks that can now be utilized. Here's the new WIP. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nOYDpWK2Zs

Posted: 3/3/2013 7:07 PM

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AngerFist

Active player (432)

Joined: 4/21/2004
Posts: 3517
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

Well one obvious question is: what is the purpose of using the code? I hope it's only for demonstration sake because you can't obviously just add a code to make something more convenient for your run. Imagine how other runs would turn out.

Nitrogenesis wrote:

Guys I come from the DidyKnogRacist communite, and you are all wrong, tihs is the run of the mileniun and everyone who says otherwise dosnt know any bater! I found this run vary ease to masturbate too!!!! Don't fuck with me, I know this game so that mean I'm always right!StupedfackincommunityTASVideoz!!!!!!

Arc wrote:

I enjoyed this movie in which hands firmly gripping a shaft lead to balls deep in multiple holes.

natt wrote:

I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but as a point of fact C# is literally the first goddamn thing on that fucking page you linked did you even fucking read it

Cooljay wrote:

Mayor Haggar and Cody are such nice people for the community. Metro City's hospitals reached an all time new record of incoming patients due to their great efforts :P

Posted: 3/3/2013 8:58 PM

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Derakon

Joined: 7/2/2007
Posts: 3960

I think it's a question of, do you make a run with the unmodified game where you have to either pursue in-game time or realtime, but can't do both? Or do you make a run with the code where you can do both together? Obviously the latter run would have trouble being submitted here but the movie will be much more entertaining. An unmodified realtime run would probably be unable to beat the unassisted records for most of the levels because weapon-switching becomes prohibitively expensive. And an unmodified in-game-time run would be pretty dang tedious due to all the pausing to switch. So basically, there is no right answer. Personally I'm fine with using the code.

Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.

Posted: 3/3/2013 9:00 PM

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scrimpeh

Editor, Skilled player (1404)

Joined: 3/31/2010
Posts: 2086

Fantastic watch, but I fear it will cause problems once it gets around to the validity of the run. Personally, I find that it, as it makes the game so much more entertaining to watch, it should be fine, even if it's a hack. (Compare HLSP Bunny mod, which Half-Life speedrunners use)

Posted: 3/3/2013 9:08 PM

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4matsy

Joined: 4/25/2004
Posts: 498

Sure he can use the code, if it ups the entertainment value of the run (which it does...dem concrete zips...mmm so tasty :d). Of course, the run would end up having to go into the "hacked game" category since it patches a missing feature into the game, but I think that's a small price to pay for an awesome and stylish run, and like Derakon said, it solves the real time vs. in-game time dilemma. :p

Posted: 3/3/2013 9:25 PM

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Noxxa

They/Them

Moderator, Expert player (4137)

Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4083
Location: The Netherlands

I wouldn't allow cheats such as that to be published. Even if it does up the entertainment value of the run significantly, it would set a very bad precedent and would open up a hole to all other kinds of "cheat"-runs for all different kinds of games, which will lead to all sorts of issues. The rules are also clear on this:

Movie Rules wrote:

Codes that manipulate ROM or RAM directly (e.g. Game Genie codes) are not allowed They count as hacked versions of the game if they touch ROM areas. Either convert it to a real hack or don't use it at all.

Though I question if, if counted as a hack, a simple weapon switch cheat/hack would count as notable enough for a hack to be accepted. If so, that would still cause the same issues as noted above. That said, nice run diggidoyo.

http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa <dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects. <Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits <adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.

Posted: 3/3/2013 9:37 PM

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AngerFist

Active player (432)

Joined: 4/21/2004
Posts: 3517
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

Yeah it is a nice run but I am strongly against this. This code not only makes things a lot more convenient for you, but it also pretty heavily helps you in planning the route. if the developers did not intend the weapon switch to take place, then it wasn't available for a reason. I compare this code as to using a second controller like in Mega Man 3 where you can jump really high and stuff. I also think its' unethical to use it. What developers intended to put in the code must be respected. If you want to create a hack, sure, but this looks a bit too cheap to call it a hack don't you think? All NES Mega Man games does not have this feature expect for Mega Man 10. Adding this code to all NES Mega Man games would fundamentally change their routes, planning but obviously increase the momentum. Edit: Another thing, this whole: "I will do anything to provide enterainment" stuff is getting a bit out of hand. Not that I am implying Diggi has this attitude.

Nitrogenesis wrote:

Guys I come from the DidyKnogRacist communite, and you are all wrong, tihs is the run of the mileniun and everyone who says otherwise dosnt know any bater! I found this run vary ease to masturbate too!!!! Don't fuck with me, I know this game so that mean I'm always right!StupedfackincommunityTASVideoz!!!!!!

Arc wrote:

I enjoyed this movie in which hands firmly gripping a shaft lead to balls deep in multiple holes.

natt wrote:

I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but as a point of fact C# is literally the first goddamn thing on that fucking page you linked did you even fucking read it

Cooljay wrote:

Mayor Haggar and Cody are such nice people for the community. Metro City's hospitals reached an all time new record of incoming patients due to their great efforts :P

Posted: 3/4/2013 1:08 AM

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darkszero

He/Him

Joined: 7/12/2009
Posts: 181
Location: São Paulo, Brazil

AngerFist wrote:

All NES Mega Man games does not have this feature expect for Mega Man 10. Adding this code to all NES Mega Man games would fundamentally change their routes, planning but obviously increase the momentum.

At least Mega Man 2 has a Japanese-only PSX version where you can switch weapons without pausing. There's two things about this "code": could it be considered a hack? Wii cheatcodes are quite powerful, just look at the all the SSBB hacking. Compared to a run aiming for in-game time, the run overall doesn't change much, other than the removed pauses.

Posted: 3/4/2013 2:21 AM

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diggidoyo

Experienced player (580)

Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 427
Location: Oregon

Derakon wrote:

I think it's a question of, do you make a run with the unmodified game where you have to either pursue in-game time or realtime, but can't do both? Or do you make a run with the code where you can do both together? Obviously the latter run would have trouble being submitted here but the movie will be much more entertaining. An unmodified realtime run would probably be unable to beat the unassisted records for most of the levels because weapon-switching becomes prohibitively expensive. And an unmodified in-game-time run would be pretty dang tedious due to all the pausing to switch. So basically, there is no right answer. Personally I'm fine with using the code.

Derakon pretty much summed up my dilemma here, but AngerFist brings up some important points, too. As it stands, using the code and aiming for real time does provide some unique opportunities that I couldn't take advantage of before. After consideration, I agree with AngerFist: that is a negative characteristic of this code. Because of this, a real-time TAS could never be compared to an unassisted speed run, and it creates a practically ambiguous category of "fastest time using code". However, when aiming for in-game time, the code doesn't provide any advantages to the run at all, and the ONLY purpose of the code would be to basically provide a smoother viewing experience. I know the precedent provided by all the previous Mega Man's tailors to real time without codes, but the difference here is the presence of an actual in-game timer in MM9. The main difference between the two runs with the code is simply energy management. I had to forgo a few concrete zips in order to conserve weapon energy for the boss. Weapon refills don't add to the in-game timer, so an in-game time run would simply zip a few more times and refill as often as necessary (even M-tanks).

Posted: 3/4/2013 4:50 AM

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blahmoomoo

Joined: 2/1/2008
Posts: 347

Wasn't there once a Super Metroid TAS that had an encode made that edited out item gets (and maybe a few other things)? If something like that was done, an in-game time minimizing TAS would be enjoyable to watch without compromising the integrity of the TAS itself, and you could watch the unedited version if you wanted to judge it. Then again, if the music is affected by the weapon change menu, such editing could be jarring... EDIT: Unless the encoder could use a cheat code to fix the music somehow without changing the gameplay. That's been done before with camera hacks in some Sonic games, right?

<ccfreak2k> There is no 'ctrl' button on DeHackEd's computer. DeHackEd is always in control.

Posted: 3/5/2013 3:59 PM

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flashthe

Joined: 6/24/2007
Posts: 119

looks nice keep it up

Posted: 3/5/2013 5:26 PM

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Derakon

Joined: 7/2/2007
Posts: 3960

blahmoomoo wrote:

Wasn't there once a Super Metroid TAS that had an encode made that edited out item gets (and maybe a few other things)? If something like that was done, an in-game time minimizing TAS would be enjoyable to watch without compromising the integrity of the TAS itself, and you could watch the unedited version if you wanted to judge it.

Generally a run should be published on its own merits, not because of a hacked encode that changes the entertainment level. Though of course with the new tiering system that would probably just mean the difference between being published normally and being published to the vault. And yes, fast-forwarding the encode does screw with the music.

Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.

Posted: 7/18/2013 10:43 AM

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Evilagram

Joined: 3/18/2013
Posts: 26

I am kind of an outsider commenting on this issue, but I believe that for the sake of submitted runs that the pauses should be left intact. There is no denying the added entertainment factor of this cheat code, but it should be published independently of the TAS archives in my opinion and probably mentioned in either the author's notes or the description of the official run.

Posted: 7/21/2013 10:16 PM

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KusogeMan

Active player (434)

Joined: 2/5/2012
Posts: 1687
Location: Brasil

no hacks concerning gameplay please,it's hard enough to defend TASes as not cheated gameplay

TAS i'm interested: megaman series: mmbn1 all chips, mmx3 any% psx glitched fighting games with speed goals in general

Posted: 7/29/2013 5:29 AM

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kchrules

Joined: 11/11/2007
Posts: 242
Location: the 1950s

You could make an in-game run with pausing on the actual game and have a separate run linked in the submission comments made with the hack/code. As far as editing the movie with pauses, if you can make a code as comprehensive as L + R switching, you could probably make a code to disable the music so after you edited the pauses out you could add the level's background music on a separate audio track. Just a thought

Currently working on: -Possibly the Wily Tower (Mega Man the Wily Wars)

Posted: 7/29/2013 6:50 PM

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Grincevent

Active player (306)

Joined: 8/21/2012
Posts: 429
Location: France

kchrules wrote:

You could make an in-game run with pausing on the actual game and have a separate run linked in the submission comments made with the hack/code. As far as editing the movie with pauses, if you can make a code as comprehensive as L + R switching, you could probably make a code to disable the music so after you edited the pauses out you could add the level's background music on a separate audio track. Just a thought

I don't think it's the solution (but it's not a bad idea in itself). A hack for fast weapon switching would allow for different and faster strategies to TAS the game. It's more convenient for the TASer (and a little more comfortable for the viewer, but that's not the main "selling point" ^^). That will result in 2 different runs. Personally, I'm all for having the more "legit" run done first at least. I don't have a set opinion on the hacked version (except that it would still be interesting to watch), but it raises the question about allowing it for all the older MM games too.

Posted: 8/11/2013 6:41 AM

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flashthe

Joined: 6/24/2007
Posts: 119

hope diggidoyo is still working on it!

Posted: 8/29/2013 11:30 AM

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got4n

Experienced player (703)

Joined: 2/5/2011
Posts: 1417
Location: France

Hello, i'm working on a run of this Here my try at Concrete Man, I just can't manipluate the boss So I need your help :p Link to video

Current: Rayman 3 maybe? idk xD Paused: N64 Rayman 2 (with Funnyhair) GBA SMA 4 : E Reader (With TehSeven) TASVideos is like a quicksand, you get in, but you cannot quit the sand