Active player (302)
Joined: 3/15/2018
Posts: 235
Location: United States
I found a good frame to get hit on the upper ledge, but it forces me to delay my crash bomb by quite some time. I also found a good frame to get hit by the final Sniper Joe outside (leaving me with an extra Item 1!!!!!), which ends up being 338 frames faster... I imagine these arbitrary frames are going to be different in the final run, so I may decide to just pick one and move on for now.
Active player (302)
Joined: 3/15/2018
Posts: 235
Location: United States
Progress update, and a couple questions: Link to video I'm currently deliberating over the Item 1 route, here. Do you think it will be worth it to take the extra hit from the Sniper Joe and use the spare Item 1 in the alien fight? That seems like the best Item 1 usage to give up, if I had to pick one. I was also wondering about the route in the boss rush. Why is it that real-time runners do an order that minimizes weapon switches, while the TAS does an order that minimizes distance? Shouldn't one route theoretically be faster in both cases? Edit: Shit. The Guts Tank fight...I just realized you can shoot him every other frame. Shooting from a distance, I genuinely believed he could only be damaged every 3 frames. Each quick shot you see represents the earliest possible frame he can be hit from that position. Interestingly, I realized this mistake when I noticed that, in the current "zipful" TAS, the Guts fight sounds different. You can hear one more frame of audio for each shot!
Active player (302)
Joined: 3/15/2018
Posts: 235
Location: United States
Just to post my thoughts: I'm looking into handling Wily 2 more like the regular TAS. That is, Wood for the drills, Time Stopper for the mashy spike plates. If this is faster, it will leave me with a total of 2 extra Item 1's. I plan to use one in the alien fight to get onto that secret ledge. I might use the second for a quicker ascent in Boobeams, or in the infamous "hold up" screen in Wily 1. Or, maybe I'll find a way to get good MadWidth/MadHeight on that one unavoidable bullet in Wily 4, so I can use an Item 1 to dodge the final Sniper Joe like I originally intended!
Active player (302)
Joined: 3/15/2018
Posts: 235
Location: United States
I believe I've discovered a new subpixel optimization technique! I don't see it mentioned anywhere in this thread, and it definitely isn't used in the 2010 TAS, but it's possible the supixel savants in here have discovered it since the previous TAS. I apologize if this is already known. User movie #48877130464294925 The details are in my userfile, but the gist is this: it's not always optimal to brush up against a wall when turning around. My movie demonstrates this by shaving 3 frames off the 2010 Flash Man segment (technically it's 1 frame + a door frame rule); I'd bet there are about 10 frames to be saved with this throughout the run.
Active player (302)
Joined: 3/15/2018
Posts: 235
Location: United States
v2.0 is in the works! I felt motivated to start on this rather than finish v1.0, although I still do plan on finishing both versions. v2.0 is the version I ultimately intend to submit. I've already managed to save 142 frames in Air and Quick alone. Currently, I'm not super confident about my Quick fight, even if it's 18 frames faster than v1.0. I don't know if the pattern used in the 2010 TAS will be viable, because buster shots have smaller hitboxes than crash bombs. userfile link Link to video
Player (36)
Joined: 9/11/2004
Posts: 2630
Would switching to the Air Cutter speed up both Quickman and the Sniper Joe section?
Build a man a fire, warm him for a day, Set a man on fire, warm him for the rest of his life.
Active player (302)
Joined: 3/15/2018
Posts: 235
Location: United States
As far as the snipers go, it's extremely close. The air shooter route saved 6 frames, until I discovered an optimization that only works for the buster route; now buster is 1 frame faster. You can check branch 8 in the userfile if you want to see for yourself. I plan to make a comparison video at some point, though. As for the boss fight...is that feasible? Can you defeat Quickman in a reasonable amount of time with the air shooter? The only comparable TAS I could find was the 2003 TAS, where they switch to buster for the fight. I think the way to go is to shoot him at the beginning of a high jump, so the second tornado hits him on his way up, but I haven't fully explored this idea.
Player (36)
Joined: 9/11/2004
Posts: 2630
I apologize, unless it allows you to attack more often, it does the same damage as the mega buster. I thought I remembered there being a slight difference, but I was mistaken.
Build a man a fire, warm him for a day, Set a man on fire, warm him for the rest of his life.
Active player (302)
Joined: 3/15/2018
Posts: 235
Location: United States
No worries! And you're right, he takes 14 hits from either weapon. The air fight would look something like this: Link to video I wasted 4 shots throughout the stage for entertainment purposes, so in reality, I have more than enough ammo to pull this off. Dodging those quickarangs presents a problem, since it allows Quick Man to get up on the ledge, which is bad. Once again I manipulated a high jump so I could dodge the first quickarang throw. The 2010 TAS does not, so I'll have to figure out if that's doable in this run. Not sure if they use the boss timer pause glitch thing to manipulat that jump.
Active player (302)
Joined: 3/15/2018
Posts: 235
Location: United States
Link to video Now this is a cool fight! There's only one problem: it's 95 frames slower than the buster fight... There's no way to deal damage to him when he's charging, so you're forced to wait until he hops. That's the main reason this fight is so slow. Speaking of buster fights... Link to video I've managed to save 18 frames from the previous fight, which saved 18 frames from the previous fight. Weird coincidence! I can't seem to find a way to get behind him without taking damage or wasting a lot of time, so this seems to be the best solution. Letting him charge to the left (like the 2010 TAS) isn't an option, because buster shots have much smaller hitboxes than crash bombs, so I can't shoot him when he's down there. I also had trouble dodging the second boomerang shot in a timely manner; perhaps I could manipulate a higher jump and see if that works out.
Active player (302)
Joined: 3/15/2018
Posts: 235
Location: United States
Link to video Yet more timesave. I shaved 33 frames off the previous buster fight with an alternate strategy. Every time I think I'm ready to move on, I come up with another idea that saves yet more time...so I think I'm gonna sit on this one for a couple days before I call it optimal. I plan to post a userfile with all my attempted strategies in the branches.
Active player (302)
Joined: 3/15/2018
Posts: 235
Location: United States
Link to video I finally decided to move on to Metal Man! This stage saves 50 frames over v1.0. Regarding the Item 2 section: unless I've set something up wrong, I believe I've saved 9 frames over inputs copy/pasted from the 2010 TAS. It's because they couldn't quite catch up to the tip of the Item 2 after jumping over the tin can man, whereas I could. That's the only reason I can come up with for why that happens!
Active player (302)
Joined: 3/15/2018
Posts: 235
Location: United States
Aha! I knew something was amiss! It turns out switching weapons during sprite flicker (not lag) can cause your teleport animation to last 10 frames longer. With a better menuing frame, the TAS inputs save 2 frames to mine--3 if I can manipulate away a pesky lag frame. I feel much better now. I seem to recall saving one frame to them in a different movie file, so I want to look into that just a bit more before I move on. It was probably a similar mistake.
Active player (302)
Joined: 3/15/2018
Posts: 235
Location: United States
I posted this on the Mega Man Discord, but I wanted to confirm it here with you folks. This is where I'll be submitting my run, after all! So, let's talk definitions. What exactly constitutes a zip? Clearly this does: But what about this? You can't see it, but here, Mega Man pops up from 94.08 to 94.00--3% of a pixel. Seems like pretty standard behavior for the collision code, if you ask me. But before you answer, look at this: A lot of jumps in this run end up looking like this. You clip inside the block by less than half a pixel, then get pushed out on the next frame. Should this be considered a zip? Redoing large portions of my run to be slower just so I can avoid this particular edge case seems absurd. Especially when you consider realtime runs; how can a judge tell if I popped up 3% of a pixel on a particular jump, or if I landed "normally?" My proposed definition is this: if the floor/wall ejects you less than one whole pixel, the collision code is behaving as normal, and you are not zipping. This definition allows me to get good subpixel precision in my jumps, while banning the intended exploit: jamming your body into the ceiling and blasting off at inane speeds. It also provides reasonable criteria for RTA judges to look for in any ambiguous runs. Regardless of whatever consensus is reached here, I've decided to jump for an extra frame in the particular scene that I showed, to circumvent the issue. I'm waiting for that Item 2 to spin up, so it doesn't really matter. I just wanted to clear this up before moving on.
Editor, Active player (297)
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 7469
Location: Arzareth
I have not followed this thread, but I assume you are talking from the point of a zipless/glitchless run. The rules I defined in http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/user/Bisqwit (refined from the post at http://tasvideos.org/forum/p/365009#365009) for a glitchless run of Mega Man, original, was to categorically ban any manifestation of player-caused movement of Mega Man faster than he could normally run or walk. Zips that cause him to momentarily move slower are still fine, an example being a collision check instantly zeroing his subpixel component. This includes the example in your post above. The most arguable application of this rule involves ladders. Ladders can instantly zip Mega Man both horizontally and vertically to align with the ladder, and this happens trivially in casual play even. When such movement speed exceeds Mega Man’s jumping speed (as measured by compared to what happens if up/down is not pressed at that moment), it is banned. The underlying guideline behind my rules is to ban any abuse of tradeoffs between the game’s perfect/correct behavior and code size/performance, whether intentional (as in “<developer> Yes, I know it’s not exactly correct, but vast majority of players will never notice anything wrong, and fixing it would increase chances we run out of budget for money, ROM space, or production schedule”) or unintentional (as in “<developer> Oops! The game is not supposed to do that.”).
Active player (302)
Joined: 3/15/2018
Posts: 235
Location: United States
Ah, yup. I'm doing zipless, but not glitchless. In realtime runs of this category, I regularly execute ladder popups, bird egg despawns (is that even a glitch?), and the Boobeam quick kill glitch. Zipless is more of a "No Major Glitches" type of thing, where we ban only zipping, screen wrapping, and delay scrolling. I do like your "no faster than you could normally move" rule, though. I think it applies here.
Active player (302)
Joined: 3/15/2018
Posts: 235
Location: United States
User movie #50491715316358744 Link to video I've TASed up through most of Heat. Just gotta finish up the boss fight. Some stuff in Air, Quick, and Metal has changed, so I re-encoded the whole thing.
Active player (302)
Joined: 3/15/2018
Posts: 235
Location: United States
Looks like I jumped the gun a little on this encode. I saved 4 frames in Bubble. By promptly wasting them, I was able to save 2 frames in Heat, which turned into 1, and then 4. What a game!
Active player (302)
Joined: 3/15/2018
Posts: 235
Location: United States
Link to video Oh boy! I can't wait to redo 60% of this movie! Yeah, this strat saves 49 frames. I got it from a Japanese runner named Visan, who seems to be the only person to use it in runs. The primary difference between him and this movie is that he switches on a pause buffer, rather than shooting for a really tiny frame window as he falls. I did test some Item 2 stuff when routing Quick Man, but not once did it occur to me to shoot it up high and then catch it as it flies by...it's a super sick strat!
Active player (302)
Joined: 3/15/2018
Posts: 235
Location: United States
Here's the trick in context. I also did some Item 2 stuff in Metal Man to save a couple frames. Did you know bonking the underside of a conveyor belt applies its speed to you for one frame? Because I didn't. But now I do! Link to video Link to video Hilariously, this Item 2 placement is frame perfect. Isn't that the least impressive frame perfect trick you've ever seen??
Active player (302)
Joined: 3/15/2018
Posts: 235
Location: United States
Link to video Been working on a ghost script for this game. This video compares two different routes through Quick Man's stage: Visan's Item 2 route (which I'm calling "Visan's Ride"), and the buster-only route. Savings are 44 frames, improved boss fight notwithstanding. Link to video I was, of course, inspired by amaurea's script.
Active player (302)
Joined: 3/15/2018
Posts: 235
Location: United States
User movie #52299635407908344 Link to video And the robots are down! I see a prime bowling moment right here. Oh wait. Wrong game. As I do some routing for the Wily stages, I'm also going to chip away at the Robot Masters and see if I can't save a few frames here and there. I want to sit on this for a while before I push forward for real.
Post subject: Watched your progress since the first WIP.
Challenger
He/Him
Skilled player (1689)
Joined: 2/23/2016
Posts: 1061
Mega Man 2 is a great game for enjoy, and this category is also good for watch. Nice work with new improvements!
My homepage --Currently not much motived for TASing as before...-- But I'm still working.
Active player (302)
Joined: 3/15/2018
Posts: 235
Location: United States
Thanks, man. Glad you're enjoying it even if there aren't any cool zips!
Experienced player (544)
Joined: 5/12/2005
Posts: 707
I've been bashing Crashman. I'm a bit over 50 frames faster at the moment on any% category.