Posted: 8/18/2008 4:44 PM
(Edited: 8/18/2008 5:14 PM)
Post subject: MKV and Chapters for Long Runs
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Raiscan
Joined: 11/11/2006
Posts: 1235
Location: United Kingdom
I've recently been experimenting with the Matroska container format (.mkv) for encoding. My reasoning is full support for features such as b-frames (without ugly hacks), Chapters and has much less overhead than AVI (on long runs, this can save up to 10MB from the end filesize). I've already decided that for future runs that are greater than 40minutes I'll be using mkv, but I've also trialled chapters with Upthorn's Ecco 2 run. This allows the viewer to select certain parts of the run based on a chapter name (for example, the names of areas or levels that the viewer might be interested in). I've run into a slight problem though with compatibility. Media Player Classic: Works fine, only uses chapter titles. Windows Media Player: Works fine with Haali Media Splitter, only uses chapter titles. VLC: whenever one chapter changes to another, the audio exhibits a slight pause. Also, selecting a chapter causes video to freeze for 5 seconds on the last frame. I'm unsure why, but I presume it's a bug in the demuxer. Full chapter/sub-chapter support otherwise. mplayer: Works fine, only uses chapter titles. The KMPlayer: Works almost perfectly. Chapter/sub-chapter support, but incorrectly detects chapters after sub-chapters as another sub-chapter, resulting in odd stacking in chapter context menu. Recommended. Now to the point of my post: I'm curious if anyone is interested in chapters in long runs or not. Do you think it would be useful? Edit: I'd just like to point out that all the above support mkv flawlessly. Any problems are to do with chapters.
<adelikat> I am annoyed at my irc statements ending up in forums & sigs
Posted: 8/18/2008 4:52 PM
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moozooh
Senior Moderator
Joined: 8/4/2005
Posts: 5777
Location: Away
This is very good thinking, actually. SDA would probably benefit from it even more (spliced segmented runs and all), but they have different standards for playback compatibility. Since our files can't be played on any hardware devices anyway, why not progress a little further and start using things that are more convenient than the currently used methods for certain applications? I support this initiative.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Posted: 8/18/2008 4:54 PM
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Sp00ky
Player (84)
Joined: 8/18/2008
Posts: 80
I think especially in long RPG runs or platformers with stage aspects it could prove to be very useful/entertaining. there are a lot of runs where when showing them to other I like to skip to a certain section of the run. It also has the potential to make certain runs that would otherwise not be as bearable more entertaining to watch. Example is the Phantasy Star 2 run where if there were chapters right before each major dungeon with an actual boss fight you could skip to the best areas of the run without having to deal with the long stretches where there is nothing but walking.
Posted: 8/18/2008 5:16 PM
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Raiscan
Joined: 11/11/2006
Posts: 1235
Location: United Kingdom
Added The KMPlayer as a tested player. Works the best so far!
<adelikat> I am annoyed at my irc statements ending up in forums & sigs
Posted: 8/18/2008 6:34 PM
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P.JBoy
Any
Editor
Joined: 3/25/2006
Posts: 850
Location: stuck in Pandora's box HELLPP!!!
How will you know which parts of the video to mark? Maybe frame numbers could be implemented into the submission page? All the encoding related wiki pages will need redoing Adds yet more work for the encoders (which they're probably willing to do it) Should we wait until Media Player Classic/VLC makes full support?
Posted: 8/18/2008 6:43 PM
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Raiscan
Joined: 11/11/2006
Posts: 1235
Location: United Kingdom
I've managed to remove most of the problems that VLC was experiencing by removing sub-chapters. obviously VLC has less support than is immediately apparent. I'm unsure what causes it, but it might be overlapping chapters. I'm unsure how chapter markings should be requested. Currently I've spoken to upthorn directly and requested frame numbers (I've also contacted TheAxeMan for framenumbers and titles in the event that his run is accepted). The problem is that mkv chapters use real times only, not frames, so every single frame number has to be converted to real time before adding a chapter. currently this is time consuming and tedious but I am hoping for a better solution. Ideally, things would be in this format: Level/PointofInterest StartTime EndTime AnotherLevel StartTime EndTime for example: 
Title Screen               00:00        00:10
Green Hill Zone Act 1      00:10        01:32
Green Hill Zone Act 2      01:32        02:53
etc. The current method I use involves XML files, but I have a frontend for it so it isn't so bad.
<adelikat> I am annoyed at my irc statements ending up in forums & sigs
Posted: 8/18/2008 7:22 PM
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zefiris
Joined: 4/11/2006
Posts: 487
Location: North of Russia :[
mkvmerge accepts cue and txt as a chapter file... so far, easiest way I see is: 
CHAPTER01=00:00:00.000
CHAPTER01NAME=Intro
CHAPTER02=00:00:30.000
CHAPTER02NAME=Level 1
CHAPTER03=00:00:41.300
CHAPTER03NAME=Level 1 BOSS
CHAPTER03=00:00:47.600
CHAPTER03NAME=Level 2
mmg can open those in editor too. Simple converter from 
00:00:00.000 Intro
00:00:30.000 Level 1
00:00:41.300 Level 1 BOSS
00:00:47:600 Level 2
to first example can be easily made. KMPlayer subchapter bug confirmed :( but I accidentally confirmed that it can "open" cue files by parsing them and creating playlist :o
Posted: 8/18/2008 11:17 PM
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Raiscan
Joined: 11/11/2006
Posts: 1235
Location: United Kingdom
zefiris wrote:
mkvmerge accepts cue and txt as a chapter file... so far, easiest way I see is: 
CHAPTER01=00:00:00.000
CHAPTER01NAME=Intro
CHAPTER02=00:00:30.000
CHAPTER02NAME=Level 1
CHAPTER03=00:00:41.300
CHAPTER03NAME=Level 1 BOSS
CHAPTER03=00:00:47.600
CHAPTER03NAME=Level 2
That way looks the easiest, yeah. I'll probably do that from now on. Beats having a horrible mess of XML :) For those interested, Upthorn's Ecco: The Tides of Time mkv uses chapters (though admittedly they are a couple of seconds off, my bad) if anyone is interested in sampling the feature.
<adelikat> I am annoyed at my irc statements ending up in forums & sigs
Posted: 8/18/2008 11:30 PM
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Rick
Former player
Joined: 6/25/2004
Posts: 607
Location: Maine
Truthfully, I use Winamp for watching all the TAS AVI files, and the MKV format doesn't work in the video sense. It works fine for the audio though. Maybe I'm the only one, I dunno, but I'd like to have a way to watch the MKV files, or just have some kind of regular file format or something that I can watch on Winamp and don't have to use two or three different video players just because some aren't compatible with others. Chapters I wouldn't mind, as long as things aren't being done in parts like some of the SDA runs. I know it's difficult not to do with some games, but I hate having to download a bunch of different video files to see one game beaten. These are just my opinions though.
http://wiki.rustedlogic.net/The_Cutting_Room_Floor The Cutting Room Floor wiki.
Posted: 8/18/2008 11:34 PM
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Raiscan
Joined: 11/11/2006
Posts: 1235
Location: United Kingdom
Do you have ffdshow? also, if you do, you may also need the Haali Media Splitter.
<adelikat> I am annoyed at my irc statements ending up in forums & sigs
Posted: 8/18/2008 11:39 PM
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zefiris
Joined: 4/11/2006
Posts: 487
Location: North of Russia :[
KLite mega codec pack would solce all your problems =) But winamp is still one of the worst video players. Works perfectly fne for audio though.
Posted: 8/19/2008 2:40 AM
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Rick
Former player
Joined: 6/25/2004
Posts: 607
Location: Maine
I'm using FFDShow, but not that other one. Got a link to it?
http://wiki.rustedlogic.net/The_Cutting_Room_Floor The Cutting Room Floor wiki.
Posted: 8/19/2008 6:42 AM
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Tombad
Joined: 8/3/2004
Posts: 380
Location: Finland
Rick wrote:
I'm using FFDShow, but not that other one. Got a link to it?
Haali Media Splitter AFAIK, that also comes with CoreAVC, if you happen to have that.
"Kids! Bringing about Armageddon can be dangerous. Do not attempt it in your home." ( Pratchett & Gaiman: Good Omens )
Posted: 8/19/2008 6:19 PM
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Warp
Banned User
Joined: 3/10/2004
Posts: 7698
Location: Finland
Rick wrote:
Truthfully, I use Winamp for watching all the TAS AVI files, and the MKV format doesn't work in the video sense. It works fine for the audio though.
I assume that it's rare for you to watch MKV files. Thus I would recommend just installing Media Player Classic (comes eg. with the klite codec pack) and setting up Windows to open MKV files with it. The player itself is very small and lightweight (not to be compared with Windows Media Player 8 and newer) and shouldn't cause too much grievance.
Posted: 8/19/2008 7:01 PM
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moozooh
Senior Moderator
Joined: 8/4/2005
Posts: 5777
Location: Away
Media Player Classic doesn't even need installing per se — you can just get it in a zip and unpack somewhere among your programs. And since it has a built-in mkv demuxer (last I checked), you only need ffdshow or somesuch to decode the streams.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Posted: 9/4/2008 2:24 AM
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Michiganbusiness
Joined: 2/2/2008
Posts: 8
Chapters in the Ecco Tides of Time run and the MKV worked just fine under Quicktime on OS 10.5. No sound bugs at all. I don't know if Quicktime is able to read these on its own, or if this is due to having Perian Installed.
Posted: 9/4/2008 6:16 AM
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moozooh
Senior Moderator
Joined: 8/4/2005
Posts: 5777
Location: Away
That's most likely thanks to Perian, yes. But damn, what a nice kit this Perian is! Good to know such thing exists for OSX.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Posted: 9/4/2008 2:36 PM
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Raiscan
Joined: 11/11/2006
Posts: 1235
Location: United Kingdom
Michiganbusiness wrote:
Chapters in the Ecco Tides of Time run and the MKV worked just fine under Quicktime on OS 10.5. No sound bugs at all. I don't know if Quicktime is able to read these on its own, or if this is due to having Perian Installed.
Ecco: Tides of Time didn't use subchapters so I'll need more testing with someone with a Mac. Still, It's nice to know that at least basic chapters are supported :)
<adelikat> I am annoyed at my irc statements ending up in forums & sigs
Posted: 9/18/2008 4:54 AM
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ShinyDoofy
Former player
Joined: 12/5/2007
Posts: 716
Somehow, mplayer does not quite work as I expected it to. I created an mkv file with several chapters and tried skipping through them with ! and @. The first chapter started out fine, the second and third chapter somehow start a little late. With later chapters, it's all gone down hill. I tried to call mplayer with the exact time given in the mkv and clearly the video just didn't start where I wanted it to. Afterwards I used the same parameter (-ss 00:56.53.547) and opened the source file (lossless x264) et voilà, the video started perfectly at exactly the frame I wanted it to. The only difference between the source file and the mkv is that the mkv was created by mencoder using -vf decimate to lower the bitrate. Is it possible that mplayer can't handle dropped frames and simply skips to the next key frame it can find instead of going back to the last one and building up the requested frame? Can anybody share this experience or might even have an idea on how to fix this?
Posted: 11/20/2008 11:28 PM
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S@G
Joined: 9/7/2006
Posts: 81
Location: Luxemburg
MKV sounds really good MKV Container x264 Video OGG Sound That would be the best thing ever O_O
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Posted: 11/21/2008 7:30 AM
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ShinyDoofy
Former player
Joined: 12/5/2007
Posts: 716
S@G, some of my publications feature just this. According to my documentation, it's DKC3, ESWAT Cyber Police and PoP: SoT.