Post subject: Tails in Sonic 1?
Joined: 6/13/2008
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I have seen the hacked Sonic 1 TAS featuring Knuckles. It's obvious that Knuckles is different enough from Sonic that his run is more than just a boring duplicate. So the question is, can the same be said about Tails? That is, would his flying offer any improvement over a standard run? There is a hack that replaces Sonic with Tails available on Romhacking.net, here. Even if a TAS would never see the light of day, that can still provide some extra Sonic 1 fun. I apologize for making a request. I know it's not exactly good form, and this post can be deleted if necessary. I just wanted the idea to know whether the idea was worth pursuing. I'd give it a try myself except I don't have the time or skills for it, unfortunately.
upthorn
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The main reason I believe this hasn't come up is that the end result wouldn't differ significantly from the Knuckles version, and therefore probably won't provide any additional entertainment to anyone, even the TAS author.
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Joined: 6/13/2008
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Location: Georgia, USA
I suppose that's the answer I was looking for. Maybe not the one I was hoping for, but if what you say is true then it's good enough reason not to do the run. I'll probably toy around with that hack and see if I spot any significant or entertaining differences though...
Player (36)
Joined: 9/9/2006
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Someone has already attempted an amature TAS at this. I saw the video on videogoogle, although it seems it's not there anymore. I found it rather interesting and I still have the GMV of it, I do believe. But it was from Tails In Sonic 1 v1.0 however, so using a new "less glitchy" version might be advised if this is going to be attempted. Although through general play on my Nintendo Wii , I've found that the new "less glitchy" version still crashes as much.
A whisper in the wind~~
Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 26
DDRKhat wrote:
Someone has already attempted an amature TAS at this. I saw the video on videogoogle, although it seems it's not there anymore. I found it rather interesting and I still have the GMV of it, I do believe. But it was from Tails In Sonic 1 v1.0 however, so using a new "less glitchy" version might be advised if this is going to be attempted. Although through general play on my Nintendo Wii , I've found that the new "less glitchy" version still crashes as much.
What version of TiS1 did you actually play on your Wii? There was drx's original v1.0 and 1.1 which crashed left and right, my three bugfixes over it which fixed the crashing and overall lots of shit, and my v2.0 which was a complete redoing of the whole thing from scratch, which I tested several times, having even gotten people to test it on hardware, and which shouldn't crash, period. For reference, the latest version of Tails in Sonic 1 (v2.0) is available on Sonic Retro.
Player (36)
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Posts: 388
Pu7o wrote:
DDRKhat wrote:
Someone has already attempted an amature TAS at this. I saw the video on videogoogle, although it seems it's not there anymore. I found it rather interesting and I still have the GMV of it, I do believe. But it was from Tails In Sonic 1 v1.0 however, so using a new "less glitchy" version might be advised if this is going to be attempted. Although through general play on my Nintendo Wii , I've found that the new "less glitchy" version still crashes as much.
What version of TiS1 did you actually play on your Wii? There was drx's original v1.0 and 1.1 which crashed left and right, my three bugfixes over it which fixed the crashing and overall lots of shit, and my v2.0 which was a complete redoing of the whole thing from scratch, which I tested several times, having even gotten people to test it on hardware, and which shouldn't crash, period. For reference, the latest version of Tails in Sonic 1 (v2.0) is available on Sonic Retro.
As I said the latest (2.0) still crashes for me, I remember reading about there being bug fixes and such so I grabbed the latest from that link about 2 days prior to my initial post. Which was 2.0.
A whisper in the wind~~
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Posts: 26
I'm curious about what crashes you're supposedly getting. I tested that thing very extensively, including on hardware, so I have no idea what's going on. Could you show me an example of where it crashes?
Player (36)
Joined: 9/9/2006
Posts: 388
Pu7o wrote:
I'm curious about what crashes you're supposedly getting. I tested that thing very extensively, including on hardware, so I have no idea what's going on. Could you show me an example of where it crashes?
I'll give it another go sometime tonight and get the instruction error then jot it down, I don't really have a way to video record it. Not as far as I'm aware, I'll see if my sisters digital camera does recording well enough, we'll see what happens.
A whisper in the wind~~
Joined: 2/25/2006
Posts: 407
Probably a dodge emulater on his Wii.
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marzojr
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I have seen Upthorn's and JXQ's runs of Sonic 1 and JXQ's Knuckles in Sonic 1 run, I just had to see a run of Tails in Sonic 1. After looking around, I found out one wasn't likely to be forthcoming. So, in what may be my first and only TAS, I decided to do it myself. The hack is here (I used version 2), while the movie is here. This TAS was based on the aforementioned runs with Sonic and Knuckles, even though I didn't use any of the input. For this reason, the number of re-records (9548) may seem low; but I didn't have to figure everything out and could simply look at how things were done in the existing runs. Credit goes to Upthorn, JXQ and all others which did the figuring out of routes and techniques. I recorded this with Gens 10a (from the downloads page). I probably won't be submitting the movie as the ROM is not in the list of "approved" hacks. The level break-down:
Level           Time       Notes
Green Hill 1    0:17:47
Green Hill 2    0:15:54    [1]
Green Hill 3    0:29:23    [2], [3]
Marble 1        0:14:49    [4]
Marble 2        0:15:34    [5]
Marble 3        0:27:54    [6]
Spring Yard 1   0:19:46    [7]
Spring Yard 2   0:22:05    [8]
Spring Yard 3   0:47:50    [9]
Labyrinth 1     0:26:52    [10]
Labyrinth 2     0:26:05    [10], [11]
Labyrinth 3     0:30:41
Star Light 1    0:18:07    [12]
Star Light 2    0:12:36    [13]
Star Light 3    0:30:44    [14]
Scrap Brain 1   0:24:44    [16]
Scrap Brain 2   0:21:33    [17]
Scrap Brain 3   0:17:06    [18]
Final           1:14:33
    [1] I couldn't get the wall trick to work: Tails can't glide, hence can't do it like Knuckles, and he can fly, hence he can't do it like Sonic... [2] Knuckles' glide allows him to quickly stop after the initial spring. Tails has to do it otherwise, and loses time; the few frames cost a second at the end. [3] Robotnik wasn't expecting Tails, hence the beatdown... [4] Tails can fly up that wall faster than Knucles can climb it. Also, the higher jumping strength makes tails reach a faster speed right up to the wall. [5] Tails has a lower maximum flying speed than Knuckles' gliding, and Knuckles can reach the walls slightly faster. It is probably possible to knock off 3 more frames with cascading desynchs on all subsequent levels. [6] Knuckles' glide lets him reach the boss faster, but Tails' flight lets him slaughter Robotnik much faster. [7] Going top-side avoids some dodging of obstacles that lose speed and some vertical movement that lose time. [8] I failed to go the Sonic way, and Tails' flight can't take it the Knuckles way. I also had to detour for that invincibility because the moving spike was in the way of the faster path. [9] Tail's flight prevent him from doing it like Knuckles, hence he takes longer to climb the wall. Tails slaughters Robotinik, but that isn't enough to make up for all the lost time. [10] Knuckles loses less time dodging the enemy at the begining due to his gliding. [11] Using the shortcut from the newest Sonic run. [12] Knuckles's glide lets him get quicker stops. Tails flight lets him get some places slightly faster. [13] Tails' higher jumping strength and flight forced me to take a slightly different route. They also allowed him to reach insane speeds and zip through this level faster than anyone ever did. [14] The shortcut Knuckles takes can't be used by Tails. I failed to get Tails from going through that loop like Sonic does. However, faster speeds and a faster route (less vertival motion) and a slightly faster boss battle allowed Tails to draw. [15] Probably the least optimized levels. There is probably lots of room for improvement, but I got bored with the run. I might redo these in the future, but I am not doing it now. [16] This stage has a ceiling which prevents Tails from going through the top. This could have circumvented a part of the stage in which Knuckles gains an edge due to his gliding stop. [17] Using shortcut from Sonic run. [18] Knuckles' glide stop lets him go about much faster, particularly around the second switch.
Edit: new times and new comments for newest run. Edit 2: Updated table, comments and movie file. Table now includes in-game frame counter values as the last number. Enjoy!
Marzo Junior
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I am honestly quite impressed seeing such a sophisticated run from somebody with just 1 post. Keep it up, maybe you can find another game to successfully TAS.
marzojr
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Thanks for the compliment :-) And I know I said I wouldn't likely do it now, but it turns out I am doing it anyway: using a glitch from the lastest Sonic 1 run, I reduced Labyrinth 2 to 0:26 and better optimization led me to reduce Labyrinth 3 by 144 frames, bringing it down to 0:54. When I finish optimizing Scrap Brain, I will update the file and the totals. Edit: Labyrinth level mix-up.
Marzo Junior
marzojr
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After five tries in Scrap Brain 2, each adding 100 or more frames, and after failing to get the bridge trick from the last Sonic run, I decided to leave the Scrap Brain zones alone for now. But I have posted the improvements to Labyrinth 2 & 3.
Marzo Junior
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This is cool, thanks for posting it Marzo Junior... I think it's different enough from the normal and Knuckles ones to be included as well (if it is precise enough which I'm apparently not good at telling -- looked really well made to me though)
I make a comic with no image files and you should read it. While there is a lower class, I am in it, and while there is a criminal element I am of it, and while there is a soul in prison, I am not free. -Eugene Debs
marzojr
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Submitting it for publishing would require a special permission, since this is not one of the "approved" hacks; if this permission were to be granted, I would gladly submit it. As for precision: I tried to be as precise as possible, even going so far as trying several stretches again and again until I found the optimal frame to jump (such as the "one-in-a-million" jump at the end of Star Light 2 which allows me to get past a barrier above the top of the stage and reach the end). I wasn't as careful in the Scrap Brain zones, which I made quicker just to get a run that completed the game (and now I am finding it harder to optimize these levels... go figure). Nevertheless, I still managed a 144-frame improvement in Labyrinth 3 with more precise movement at the beginning.
Marzo Junior
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Well, it won't be granted unless you ask, though I'm not sure who to ask... Bisqwit I suppose. I think the hack and run are good enough that there wouldn't be massive backlash on that front if you submitted it... or maybe I'm being optimistic. Good luck in any event!
I make a comic with no image files and you should read it. While there is a lower class, I am in it, and while there is a criminal element I am of it, and while there is a soul in prison, I am not free. -Eugene Debs
marzojr
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alden wrote:
though I'm not sure who to ask...
Which is one of the reasons why I haven't asked yet :-) But yeah, I guess I will ask Bisqwit.
Marzo Junior
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Log onto #nesvideos on irc.freenode.net and ask there. Assuming there are some moderators around, they should be able to at least give you some sense as to whether or not the run would be accepted.
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I know that my opinion doesn't matter much but I'm looking forward to this and I hope it can get the special permission. "Tails in Sonic 1" is not much different in concept than "Knuckles in Sonic 1", and I think it would be good to have the complete trilogy :)
Gone.
marzojr
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Over at #nesvideos, Bisqwit gave me the go ahead; I am polishing the run for submission, and am optimizing several levels. I already managed to gain a few frames in Marble 3 (reduced timer by 1 second) and Labyrinth 1 (reduced timer by 1 seconds). I also finally managed to get the full shortcut in Labyrinth 3, but the lack of gliding means final time is 30 seconds (and needing to knock 35 frames to drop it to 29) compared with 28 for Knuckles. Given the desynchs that these gains caused, I will post the new version when it completes the game once again. And hopefully improving the Scrap Brain zones. Edit: fixed overly optimistic value pulled from memory.
Marzo Junior
marzojr
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I managed to duplicate the Scrap Brain 2 trick from the newest Sonic run, bringing the time down to 0:21.
Marzo Junior
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Updated with new movie and new times. Seems ready to submit to me, so I will go ahead and do it.
Marzo Junior
upthorn
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Hang on a minute. I haven't actually watched this yet because in your PM you told me you weren't going to submit it. Now that I know you do plan to, I'd like to review it for technical stuff before you submit, so you don't have to go through the trouble of submitting only to have it rejected on technical grounds. Edit: I'll be editing this post with observations as I make them:
  1. In GHZ act 1, you fly a couple of times where it seems unnecessary, and it slows you way down. You should be able to match (or even improve) the Knuckles time of 0:17:26, (your time is 0:17:47)
  2. In GHZ act 2, it looks possible for tails to do the same trick that sonic and Knuckles do, but it turns out they placed an additional invisible wall there. Some of the jumps seem inoptimal, though. Remember that jumping (and bouncing, too) will usually you down at the peak. (Though, this route might be more entertaining, if you don't want pure speed to be your goal)
  3. In GHZ act 3, again it looks like you didn't take the optimal route, you might want to look at the Knuckles TAS again. Your ghz3 is almost a full second longer than its...
  4. In MZ Act 1, it's possible to use the same trick that is used in the currently published S1 TAS to go through the wall. Failing that, it would be better to have Tails start flying over the wall from earlier and higher, so he doesn't get stuck at it for so long.
  5. In SYZ Act 2, you take a different route from the Knuckles TAS, but it ends up slower. Tails should be essentially able to duplicate the Knuckles route.
  6. In SYZ Act 3, you duplicate the Knuckles strategy too precisely, it would be much faster if you used Sonic's version of grabbing the speed shoes, rather than triggering Tails' flight.
  7. In LZ Act 1, I don't understand why you fly on the way down at the start, it delays your landing on the necessary switch.... The second flight is good, though.
  8. Again in LZ act 2, I see unnecessary, slow swimming, which could be eliminated to save time
  9. And in LZ Act 3, you do a good job of duplicating the Knuckles strat, but you're 2 seconds slower because of the unnecessary swimming. Unlike in GHZ 2, these changes don't add anything to the entertainment value of the movie.
  10. In SLZ Act 1, Tails has a jump-strength advantage over Knuckles which should end up with Tails having a faster time, rather than slower. Again, I think this has to do with poor use of the flight ability.
  11. In SLZ Act 3, it looks like you make some poor use of the flight ability. Additionally, at the boss fight, Robotnik will take damage from the spike balls even if he's already flashing, which could probably speed up the fight a bit.
  12. In SBZ Act 1, it's possible to use the same zip trick that the published Sonic TAS uses. It's not as fast as the Sonic or Knuckles versions, and requires somewhat more precise placement on the piston, though.
  13. In SBZ Act 3, it's perfectly possible to use the same zip trick that's used in the published Sonic 1 TAS
How fleeting are all human passions compared with the massive continuity of ducks.
marzojr
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upthorn wrote:
I haven't actually watched this yet because in your PM you told me you weren't going to submit it.
That is because I wasn't planning on submitting it when I sent you that PM.
upthorn wrote:
[...]I'd like to review it for technical stuff before you submit, so you don't have to go through the trouble of submitting only to have it rejected on technical grounds.
That would be great, yes.
upthorn wrote:
1) In GHZ act 1, you fly a couple of times where it seems unnecessary, and it slows you way down.
That is a good point; I will revise this zone.
upthorn wrote:
2) In GHZ act 2, it looks possible for tails to do the same trick that sonic and Knuckles do, but it turns out they placed an additional invisible wall there.
So that is why I couldn't get it to work...
upthorn wrote:
(Though, this route might be more entertaining, if you don't want pure speed to be your goal).
Hm. Need to look for a faster route then.
upthorn wrote:
3) In GHZ act 3, again it looks like you didn't take the optimal route, you might want to look at the Knuckles TAS again.
The times I tried the Knuckles route resulted in a slower run, but I have learned a lot more of Sonic TASing since. Maybe I should try it again. The difficulty in taking that spring is that Knuckles uses a quick glide to slow down and lose vertical speed, while Tails will have to jump earlier. In any case, I'll leave these for tomorrow as I can barely keep my eyes open now.
Marzo Junior
marzojr
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marzojr wrote:
upthorn wrote:
1) In GHZ act 1, you fly a couple of times where it seems unnecessary, and it slows you way down.
That is a good point; I will revise this zone.
Wow. I already gained 16 frames at the first flight point by the simple expediency of keep holding right by 19 more frames, delaying the flight by 4 frames and by start decelerating while still approaching the ledge. This leaves me with fully rev'ed spindash at 00:06:22 instead of the 00:06:38 from the run. If things keep going like this, Knuckles' time may be beaten. Edit: so far, I have managed to reduce the GHZ1 time to 0:17:17, just 4 frames below the Knuckles time; I actually gained very little from trying to optimize the second flight (3 frames) but gained 11 frames on better speed management from the loop on, including an extra portion of flight to avoid a jump over spikes and the resulting speed loss. The extra flight portion incidentally gathers some rings and makes this the only stage so far with more than 50 rings. Edit 2: And the speed management just keeps on pouring: 0:17:13 in GHZ1.
Marzo Junior