(if people say "I'm against deciding that later, since I want to vote on a particular version, THEN I'll list both... for now, I'll just list the game.)
I don't think it makes sense to vote on a game as opposed to a particular movie. If voting on a game, it's essentially getting the combined votes that all its movies would get.
Ok, that makes sense. Changed it back to 100 CD version, since it had the most suggestions currently. I feel like listing both is somehow strange, and they won't both get stars anyway... If there are more people in favor of the other run, I'll either add it too, or change the 100CD version... or whatever is best.
Bezman wrote:
Also, there's a few movies there that I've not seen. Can we be given a couple of weeks to watch them? Normally, I'd only need a day or two, but presentations are due and other folk may also have real-life complications.
Well, there is no particular hurry. I'd hate to commit to a certain time... but I am gonna watch/rewatch some movies also, so don't worry about it too much.
Bezman wrote:
2 movies I feel should be nominees: Your own Megaman 3,4,5,6 and HappyLee's SMB walkthrough.
Yeah, I didn't list a few of the suggestions posted in this thread. Maybe I should have eleborated more on them. I didn't list:
Super Mario Bros 1: Only person who argued in favor of it was Klmz, while there were arguments from quite a few people against it having a star.
Super Mario Bros 1 Walkathon: You were the only one who argued in favor of this, and I think very, very little people would have it in their star list. I'm 99% sure that the people arguing against the regular SMB1 run feel even more strongly about this run. If Bezman gets support in his suggestion from others, I'll could add it though.
Mega Man 3,4,5,6: MMX+MMX2 in the concept section already represents this concept. MM3456 might take the concept a step further, but by far the most people sofar argued that MMX+MMX2 was far more watchable. It seemed like it was pretty much agreed on generally that if this concept gets a star, that it should be the MMX+MMX2 TAS. In order for it to get on the list, more people will need to be in favor of it, instead of MMX+MMX2.
Four other TASes that were suggested by single people (by arkiandruski and Klmz... they suggested a LOT) that weren't added:
Marble Madness
Snake Rattle n Roll
Super Bomberman 2
Tetris 'fast 999999'
Super Mario land
If reasons for these are needed, I'll provide them, or if there are arguments why I should add them, let me know.
For groups I suggest the following two categories of runs. I must say beforehand that in my experience (about 30 people) they are either wildly popular or heavily disliked. (Marked with Asterisks the ones I would suggest)
1. Glitch Festival
Examples: *Sonic 3 & Knuckles, *Rygar (either version), Zelda II, *Mega Man, Pokemon, NES Strider, Comix Zone, *0-star Mario 64, Zelda 2nd Quest.
2. Skips most of the game
Examples: I think Baxter knows all already, but specially the ones that also belong to the first category, like the Castlevania ones.
The group that disliked those two categories enjoyed the most the luck manipulation ones, and the ones that shown amazing skillplay/playing with death, while not using any bug/glitch that looked "cheap".
3. Exhibition/plays with death:
Examples: *Ninja Gaiden I & II, Arkanoid, Ghost n Goblins, *Mario 3, *SMW, *River City Ransom playaround, Genesis Golden Axe, *SNES Prince of Persia, Super Bomberman 2 (last levels, mostly), Gunstar Heroes, *Sonic 2 and Ninja Five-O.
However, both groups enjoyed any game they had previously played.
In addition, I suggest 3-players "Lost Vikings" as an alternative to 4-players "Nightmare on Elmstreet".
I think Metroid "any%" falls into the category of "Skipped Games". The two stars can go to the two "100%"s, but...
Since we can have at least two stars for Metroid games, I feel that Metroid Fusion "100%" can compete with Metroid Zero Mission "100%". Although it is slower-paced and not so Metroidish to Metroid fans, the movie is still good for a Metroid-ness, and we can expect that the improved submission by BioSpark will be accepted. It shows the "linar" Metroid with an annoying computer and has better graphics in my opinion (despite the ugly Samus sprite).
BTW, Metroid 2 shouldn't be given a star, because the game's objectives (to kill every single metroid) are very repetitive and thus neither of the movies can be entertaining enough.
Baxter wrote:
Megaman (1 Star)Mega Man 1
Mega Man 2
It's a tough choice. However, I think Mega Man 1 is better because it shows more glitches besides zipping than Mega Man 2, and Mega Man 2 has some waiting time before every zipping.
Baxter wrote:
Zelda (1 Star)Legend of Zelda
A Link to the Past
Links Awakening DX
No comments this time.
Baxter wrote:
Castlevania (2 Stars)Castlevania
Castlevania: HoD
Castlevania: CotM
Super Castlevania IV
Ninja Five-0: Not a perfect choice because of the annoying background music tracks and slow horizontal movements compared to fast vertical movements, which feel very weird and not so good.
Umihara Kawase: Hmm, this game indeed has the most realistical wire physics, but it only has the wire physics and no more. (No, never consider about the "sight seeing" movie, it's has too long waiting time.)
Spiderman 3: The character uses wires more often to pull himself up than to swing. The downside is that it is too frantic and it can be hard for the movie viewer to follow because the direction of spiderman's movement changes every split second and the sound effect forces the viewer to recatch it. I guess this is the most brain-power-comsuming wire TAS.
Bionic Commando: This can have the same problem as Spiderman 3 but not so heavily. It might be worse because one who isn't familiar with this game won't tell why the character is going to and fro those bases on the tactical map.
Which one should be given the star? I'll forward the question to others...
Baxter wrote:
Special concept (2 Stars)MMX+MMX2
Kings Bounty
Nightmare on Elmstreet “4player”
Monopoly
River City Ransom
I haven't watched MMX+MMX2.
King's Bounty is a bad choice because it show actually no more gameplay than just "select to win". This is quite different from HoD "Maxim warped"/Mario 64 "0 stars"/etc that is action-packed from the start to the end. I felt fooled when I watched this movie the first time. So, there's the risk that a new comer may also feel fooled the first time he/she watches this. I suggested it on Page 3 just for sarcasm (you saw my comments in the parentheses).
DrJones wrote:
In addition, I suggest 3-players "Lost Vikings" as an alternative to 4-players "Nightmare on Elmstreet".
Sounds a good idea.
I guess Monopoly may be a little better than King's Bounty, but... I haven't watched it, either.
River City Ransom is debatable. We may need a stared beat-em-up for variety, we may need some alternative goals than "aims for fastest time possible". However, I think the goal of this run is a little arbitrary and most importantly, likely to be acheivable in an unassisted run.
Baxter wrote:
NES games (3 Stars)Ninja Gaiden 2
Darkwing Duck
Mega Man 5
Gimmick!
Super Mario Bros 2
Journey to Silius
Batman
Arkanoid “Warpless”
Battle of Olympus
Legend of Zelda 2
Battletoads “2 player warpless”
Argh, should I refrain again? No, I want to comment anyway this time.
Ninja Gaiden 2 isn't very unique among sidescroll platformers. And I think platform shooters are generally better choices than platform slashers due to more versatile movements and more flexible luck manipulation and lag reduction. It should be dropped as a result, and we can choose from some platform shooters if we really want.
Mega Man 5 is similar to Gimmick!, both ride something to travel faster than to walk. Umm, it seems that Mega Man 5 can have a chance due to its versatility, although it's a popular game while Gimmick! isn't.
Arkanoid "Warpless" is very impressive and is better than other TAB (correct?) games like Tetris. This should be stared anyway for variety.
Battle of Olympus doesn't suffer from background refreshing problem while Legend of
Zelda 2 "Warped" does, and we don't lack glitched warps. And the most important thing is that BoO is a less popular game than LoZ2 is. I think BoO can be stared for its typical "left+right" glitch.
Baxter wrote:
SNES games (2 Stars)Super Mario World 2: Yoshi’s Island
Rockman and Forte "100 CDs"
Sparkster
Donkey Kong Country 1 any%
Biker Mice from Mars
The Mask
I suggest Rockman & Forte "100 CD" for its superb zipping and route planning.
The Mask is an extremely fast-paced platform game with annoying clocks and long final boss fight. However, it feels inferior to Sparkster. I think Sparkster is the better choice, although they are not very similar to each other.
I haven't watched Donkey Kong Country 1 "any%", but I doubt if it can be more entertaining than Donkey Kong Country 3 "any%" that is boring.
Biker Mice from Mars is an awesome racing movie that suffers from camera problem. However I doubt without that problem, it might look more confusing. Hmm, I think Excitebike is already good. But if we can afford more stars, Biker Mice from Mars may take one.
Baxter wrote:
Genesis (1 Star)Gunstar Heroes “ 2 player”
Ecco (which run?)
Dynamite headdy
Golden Axe
Comix Zone
I think we need at lest one stared two-player movie, and Gunstar Heroes “ 2 player” seems to be the only good choice so far. Since it's well accepted and enjoyed, I think you can star it.
Ecco? No. People not familiar with the game won't know what is going on for more than half an hour.
Dynamite Headdy is fairly a good game, and the movie is very entertaining. But I think Gunstar Heroes “ 2 player” is better...
Golden Axe is a typical beat-em-up game. But I haven't watched the movie...
Comix Zone is a unique beat-em-up game. But...
Baxter wrote:
N64 (1 Star)Majora’s Mask
Goldeneye
Mischief Makers
Super Mario 64 120 star
Super Mario 64 "120 star" should be dropped for now.
I haven't watched the whole Mischief Makers due to annoying lags, but I think it fails due to its 2D essence, and we need to star a 3D movie...
The rest N64 games are up to you, since I haven't watched them.
EDIT: Ecco & Golden Axe.
<klmz> it reminds me of that people used to keep quoting adelikat's IRC statements in the old good days
<adelikat> no doubt
<adelikat> klmz, they still do
Dynamite Headdy is fairly a good game, and the movie is very entertaining. But I think Gunstar Heroes “ 2 player” is better...
Golden Axe is a typical beat-em-up game. But I haven't watched the movie...
Comix Zone is a unique beat-em-up game. But...
From those, I've seen the last three. Golden Axe is a very funny watch, as the player manipulates most the monsters to kill themselves while avoiding any hit, very unconventional. Comix Zone is also very impressing. I don't know which one I enjoy more, as I've seen both many times.
For groups I suggest the following two categories of runs. I must say beforehand that in my experience (about 30 people) they are either wildly popular or heavily disliked. (Marked with Asterisks the ones I would suggest)
1. Glitch Festival
Examples: *Sonic 3 & Knuckles, *Rygar (either version), Zelda II, *Mega Man, Pokemon, NES Strider, Comix Zone, *0-star Mario 64, Zelda 2nd Quest.
2. Skips most of the game
Examples: I think Baxter knows all already, but specially the ones that also belong to the first category, like the Castlevania ones.
The group that disliked those two categories enjoyed the most the luck manipulation ones, and the ones that shown amazing skillplay/playing with death, while not using any bug/glitch that looked "cheap".
3. Exhibition/plays with death:
Examples: *Ninja Gaiden I & II, Arkanoid, Ghost n Goblins, *Mario 3, *SMW, *River City Ransom playaround, Genesis Golden Axe, *SNES Prince of Persia, Super Bomberman 2 (last levels, mostly), Gunstar Heroes, *Sonic 2 and Ninja Five-O.
However, both groups enjoyed any game they had previously played.
1. Glitchfest: All of the suggestions you made here are already in other groups, and some of them seem currently likely to get a star. So I don't think such a group it needed to get variety... as these type of runs will be represented already anyway, and secondly, every TAS can only be in one group, and they are better fit in the groups they are now in.
2. Skips most of the game: A TAS like Super Mario 64 0 star is currently already on the "instant star" list (as pretty much everyone wants this to get a star). This means this category already has a TAS that somewhat represents it. It is also however a special concept, and if people feel like this concept is underrepresented, they are able to vote for Kings Bounty in the special concept section (In my opinion though, since it's already represented somewhat with the 0 star run, there might be other special concepts which might be better for variety purposes than Kings Bounty).
3. Plays with death: Once again, the movies you mentioned are already in probably better suited groups, and it's very likely that this aspect will be represented with one (or more) of those movies.
DrJones wrote:
In addition, I suggest 3-players "Lost Vikings" as an alternative to 4-players "Nightmare on Elmstreet".
Ok, I'll add it for now... although I would generally like it better if each movie represented a different concept there, since the concept seems to be the important thing about that group.
Edit: I've added which special concept these movies have.
Four other TASes that were suggested by single people (by arkiandruski and Klmz... they suggested a LOT) that weren't added:
Marble Madness
Snake Rattle n Roll
Super Bomberman 2
Tetris 'fast 999999'
Super Mario land
If reasons for these are needed, I'll provide them, or if there are arguments why I should add them, let me know.
Marble Madness and Snake Rattle n Roll are both pseudo-3D games with difficult manoeuvres. If such a "category" is affordable with only a star, Snake Rattle n Roll is better due to its "2-player" and infamous difficulty.
Tetris 'fast 999999' is a good movie, but I think Arkanoid 'warpless' is a better show.
With regard to Super Mario Land...sorry, I haven't got the movie stay synced, while from what has been synced, I haven't been able to tell anything very impressive.
EDIT: For movies that I haven't watched, I'll leave them for those who have watched them.
<klmz> it reminds me of that people used to keep quoting adelikat's IRC statements in the old good days
<adelikat> no doubt
<adelikat> klmz, they still do
Joined: 2/28/2006
Posts: 2275
Location: Milky Way -> Earth -> Brazil
I'm waiting for the PSX support, so we can give a star to a Castlevania game.
"Genuine self-esteem, however, consists not of causeless feelings, but of certain knowledge about yourself.
It rests on the conviction that you — by your choices, effort and actions — have made yourself into the
kind of person able to deal with reality. It is the conviction — based on the evidence of your own volitional
functioning — that you are fundamentally able to succeed in life and, therefore, are deserving of that success."
- Onkar Ghate
Bisqwit wrote:
Okay, these are my votes on the categories made by Baxter, from an entertainment point of view alone as I haven't made any TASes.
Super Mario World (1 Star)
Super Mario World any%
Sonic (2 Stars)
Sonic 3 & Knuckles, Sonic The Hedgehog 2
Metroid (2 Stars)
Super Metroid 100%, Metroid any%
Megaman (1 Star)
Mega Man 1
Zelda (1 Star)
Legend of Zelda
Castlevania (2 Stars)
Castlevania HoM (glitched), Castlevania: CotM (non-glitched)
Wire TAS (1 Star)
Ninja Five-0
Special concept (2 Stars) (+1 star)
Monopoly 4cpus, Lost Vikings (3 players), River City Ransom (playaround)
NES games (3 Stars)
Ninja Gaiden 2, Warpless Rygar, Zelda II (or Arkanoid)
SNES games (2 Stars) -1 star
Sparkster
Genesis (1 Star) +1
Gunstar Heroes “ 2 player”, Comix Zone
N64 (1 Star) -1 star
Mario 64 0 stars is enough to represent this category, and it also has links to the more-complete runs in its description. No need to star the others, too. : P
EDIT: Changed "SNES Prince of Persia" for the as-yet-to-be-published Sparkster run, even though it's a bit too close to the Sonic runs.
Super Mario World (1 Star)Super Mario World "small only"
Super Mario World any%
Super Mario World 96exit
Super Demo World 120exitOuch...tough decision. small only is probably the most entertaining, but any% and 96exit both have more conventional goals...eh, I'll stick with Small Only. Super Demo World should be considered separately, I'd say, since it's a TAS of a hack.Sonic (2 Stars)Sonic 3 & Knuckles
Sonic Advance 2
Sonic The Hedgehog
Sonic The Hedgehog 2I'd say Advance 2 and one of the Genesis games.Metroid (2 Stars)Super Metroid 100%
Metroid Zero mission 100%
Metroid any%I think the Super Metroid any% would be good here, along with the MZM 100%. I don't like the Metroid any%, and I don't think having both our Metroid runs being 100%s is a good idea.Zelda (1 Star)Legend of Zelda
A Link to the Past
Links Awakening DXMy personal bias towards Link's Awakening aside, I can't really decide. There's only one Zelda TAS I really like, but we'll get to that later. LoZ has the advantage of being fairly short, especially compared to the other Zelda TAS I'm recommending, but ALttP has more mainstream appeal, which is still somewhat important to a starred movie.Special concept (2 Stars)MMX+MMX2 (2 games with one input)
Kings Bounty (skipped game by luck manipulation)
Monopoly (skipped game by luck manipulation)
Nightmare on Elmstreet “4player” (4 players)
Lost Vikings (3 players)
River City Ransom (playaround)2 games with 1 input gets my vote. don't know about the othersN64 (1 Star)Majora’s Mask
Goldeneye
Mischief Makers
Super Mario 64 120 starMajora's Mask. No question. I largely don't care what gets a star, but this one absolutely deserves one.
One more category could be Game Boy/GBA games, as there are a lot of those. Another is the horribly glitched runs. There are a number of runs that use glitches to skip pretty much the entire game, and a lot of them are quite fun to watch, with the added benefit that they are generally very short. Things like the Link's Awakening DX and especially the Pokemon Yellow run are just awesomely hilarious and really should be seen. If they don't deserve stars, we should at least have some way of acknowledging these sorts of TAS.
23 seems a bit restrictive. perhaps 25 or even 30 could allow just a few more deserving games to get stars. Actually, I'd prefer that there was no strict limit on starred games, just strict requirements, but that doesn't seem to be the way the community wants to go.
One more category could be Game Boy/GBA games, as there are a lot of those. Another is the horribly glitched runs. There are a number of runs that use glitches to skip pretty much the entire game, and a lot of them are quite fun to watch, with the added benefit that they are generally very short. Things like the Link's Awakening DX and especially the Pokemon Yellow run are just awesomely hilarious and really should be seen. If they don't deserve stars, we should at least have some way of acknowledging these sorts of TAS.
23 seems a bit restrictive. perhaps 25 or even 30 could allow just a few more deserving games to get stars. Actually, I'd prefer that there was no strict limit on starred games, just strict requirements, but that doesn't seem to be the way the community wants to go.
I didn't have a seperate gb/gba section since a lot of its great runs are already present in the other categories. Franchises like Sonic advance, the castlevania series, metroid series, spiderman 3, Links Adventure DX and ninja five-0 are already listed. There were no other suggestions at all sofar for a gb/gba section... and even if there was one, it would be a single TAS in one group. I don't think GBA games will be especially underrepresented in the starlist. If you are have strong arguments for the pokemon game, it could be in the special concept group, as a skipped game (although we already have two of those there).
My aim was not to have more than 25... so that won't happen very fast. Too many stars, and the concept is gone. I think currently aiming for 23 is good, since once the list is done, there can always be arguments like "this run would really complete the list" or a new published movie could come along, where it could be strange to obsolete any of the then current stars. So for those cases, I think it's good to aim for 23 for now, and have 1 or 2 stars in reserve. There is no strict limit... but it aren't called special stars for no reason ;)
Lost Viking is not a three-player game by any definition of the word.
- It's a 1-player game. There isn't even a multiplayer option (AFAIK; at least the PC version didn't).
- Consequently, it's played with one single controller.
- The playable characters are not played simultaneously, but in turns.
- Moreover, controlling three playable characters in alternation is part of the core gameplay, and mandatory to complete the game.
A multiplayer game is, by definition, a game where more than one human player, using more than one controller, one for each player, control that many (optional) playable characters.
Categorizing Lost Vikings as a 3-player game is as silly as categorizing Command&Conquer as a 1000-player (or whatever) game for the sole reason that the player can control that many playable characters.
(And no, this doesn't mean the Lost Vikings TAS isn't enjoyable.)
There's a few movies on the list that are kinda ambiguous - specifically, River City Ransom, Sonic 3 and Knuckles and Monopoly. If you're willing, maybe even write the TAS code number next to them, so there's no confusion between anyone and relative newbies like myself can get up to speed quickly and easily.
Are the Metroid nominees 1195,1108 and 1144 respectively?
I'm just some random guy. Don't let my words get you riled - I have my opinions but they're only mine.
There's a few movies on the list that are kinda ambiguous - specifically, River City Ransom, Sonic 3 and Knuckles and Monopoly. If you're willing, maybe even write the TAS code number next to them, so there's no confusion (and relative newbies like myself can get up to speed quickly.
Maybe later, when I have time.
Warp wrote:
Lost Viking is not a three-player game by any definition of the word.
(I didn't suggest this btw... it was suggested as an alternative to the 4 player movie) Either way, feel free to state a better, short description of the movie's concept. I'll hold on the current lable until you and the others reach some conclusion.
It is three player. The Genesis version of Lost Vikings allows for cooperative play, so up to three people can take control of a Viking. The TAS uses three controllers and controls all three vikings simultaneously.
Meh, I'm not really in favour of rigid lists to determine movies. It will make it harder to remove them from the list at a later time. It's also allowing some pretty weak games on the list which will quickly come under fire, but will be hard to remove due to categorization issues. Movies should be one the list for their individuality and hence be good enough to be on the list in the first place; not because they belong to a certain group of games or list.
So like, we should probably have some sort of stupid imposed limit of how long a run has to be published before it gets a star right? Otherwise we could get stuff liek oh em gee~~! Best run ever you need to start it now garblehaaaar~~!!!! STAR!!![/color] like we used to, even on runs that didn't need a star. It just became a way of saying "this run is good."
I think the time limit thing would prevent the HYPE HYPE STAR IT NOW! reaction, or at least keep it unrelated to actual star discussion. Then after a while, when the initial "this is the coolest thing I have seen in the last 20 minutes" dies down, people will be able to think about it more reasonably. Was it really a superspecial run, or was it just a good run of game xyz which you really enjoyed, especially compared to dull activity yza that you were doing before you started watching the run?
I was going somewhere with this post. I'm not sure if I got there.
So like, we should probably have some sort of stupid imposed limit of how long a run has to be published before it gets a star right? Otherwise we could get stuff liek oh em gee~~! Best run ever you need to start it now garblehaaaar~~!!!! STAR!!![/color] like we used to, even on runs that didn't need a star. It just became a way of saying "this run is good."
I think the time limit thing would prevent the HYPE HYPE STAR IT NOW! reaction, or at least keep it unrelated to actual star discussion. Then after a while, when the initial "this is the coolest thing I have seen in the last 20 minutes" dies down, people will be able to think about it more reasonably. Was it really a superspecial run, or was it just a good run of game xyz which you really enjoyed, especially compared to dull activity yza that you were doing before you started watching the run?
I was going somewhere with this post. I'm not sure if I got there.
Xkeeper, many posts ago wrote:
In that case, I would like to bring up the idea of making movies starred only one month after their publication, so that other movies can enjoy whatever spot will be revoked while the run in question merrily sits on the "Newest movies" list.
(With one month being a random time frame)
I'm not really sure if I'm being mocked or agreed with.
Xkeeper, I completely don't remember reading your post. I know me telling you that I'm not mocking you probably won't alleviate your concern... but I'm not mocking you. I was agreeing apparently.
No, no, it's fine.
I'll throw in that I also believe waiting to let the hype die down would be a good reason to wait too. I thought I mentioned that, but I guess not. Whoops.
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Instant:
SMB3 + SM64 0 star should stay. ExciteBike I personally think is overrated.... while it abuses bouncing, it uses the same moves over and over. It abuses the game for sure, but in terms of speed, I still think Biker Mice from Mars beats it by a long shot.
Gradius I kinda like, but I think that a run where you must push it to the limits in order to make art isn't as good as a game that naturally is artistic and varied.
Super Mario:
any% should get it. the small is too "concept demo-ish" to get the star, the 120 star is too long, and the 96 exit is outdated aka being improved (and massively). However, I think the 96 exit improvement should steal the any%'s star when it finally gets done.
Sonic:
Sonic advance 2 and sonic 3 should have the star. They are the 2 faster and more impressive runs.
Metroid:
I'm going to have go with the 100% zero mission because the pace is better and IMO has more intense action sequences, as well as frighteningly fast boss fights; I suppose 100% SM would be ok if that doesn't make the cut though. I don't think NES metroid belongs, as the 2 other metroid runs are far more impressive/varied.
Megaman:
I'm going to go with megaman 1 for now. it's the shortest of the runs, has the easiest to perform zippiness, and is not being improved. It also represents TASvideos out of the 3 of them in my mind. However, I think once MM2 gets improved it may take it; MM5 I think is alright, but less deserving of the star than the other 2.
Zelda:
LoZ should have it for now, and should be replaced by ALttP when that improvement gets completed. I think the current ALttP should lose it's star. And while I would encourage for more GB stars, I don't find any GB zelda TASes to be as interesting as the zelda TASes for other systems.
Castlevania:
HoD. No questions asked.
Wire TAS:
Spiderman 3. The game got annihilated, and it also contains many speedy elements that aren't based on the wire stuff, something which I feel the other games lack (because they rely on the wire physics to be fast.)
Special:
eh. quad run? Out of those listed, the MMX dual run is the most interesting IMO, but it's so outdated, and even obsoleted by number of games completed!
NES Games:
Ninja gaiden 2
Battle of olympus
journey to silius
snes games:
you picked 6 good choices :-( how to choose?
maybe not Yoshi Island yet... there's a beyond impressive any% improvement in the works ;-)
100 CDs was awesome.
DKC NEEDS to be represented.... maybe this run should get it, but I'm thinking in the future a DKC 2 run should replace it.
Biker Mice should replace excitebike IMO.
The mask was fast but not too impressive of a game.
Genesis:
Gunstar 2 player, no questions asked.
N64:
Hmmm. 3 out of the 4 of those are being improved, and to be honest I think there's too many emulation errors for my Mischief Makers run to get a star.
I'd probably have to settle for goldeneye for now, despite it's graphical/sound issues. If all 4 of those games had their improvements made and all emulation fixed, I'd be looking at 4 immensely difficult decisions.
Joined: 8/26/2006
Posts: 1139
Location: United Kingdom
Instant stars (4 Stars)SMB3 any%
Excitebike
Super Mario 64 "0 star"
Gradius
I disagree that exitebike should get an instant star. The movie is funny and novel, but is the glitch really so representative of TASing that it should be in this category? I think it should be in the NES one, where it would probably still do well.
Super Mario World (1 Star)Super Mario World "small only"
Super Mario World any%
Super Mario World 96exit
Super Demo World 120exit
I love playing SMW, but find TASes of it quite tiresome. I held this opinion strongly until I saw Mister's run. It is phenomenal and I think is the clear winner here. Small only is cool, but absolutely meaningless from most perspectives if you haven't played the game. 96exit is cool but isn't even in Mister's league. I'm fundamentally against hacked games having stars since they are such a cult/niche interest. Starring SDW and not the others for a game as popular as SMW doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
Sonic (2 Stars)Sonic 3 & Knuckles
Sonic Advance 2
Sonic The Hedgehog
Sonic The Hedgehog 2
The toughest decision. All these runs are so awesome. S3&K is a definite. Nitsuja's v1 was an absolute masterpiece, I still watch it more than the published run, the v2 was a little bit too glitched for my liking and v3 has the same problem but with ugly glitches. I still think it's the best run on the site though and deserves a star. S1 is great but I don't think it really has a shout here. It's close between S2 and SA2 for the star. I think the best run to give it to is Sonic Advance 2; it's more different than S3&K than S2 is and the run is so fast. I'd still love to see Sonic 2 keep it's star though...
Metroid (2 Stars)Super Metroid 100%
Metroid Zero mission 100%
Metroid any%
SM 100% definite, and probably MZM too, but I'm still not totally convinced that Metroid needs two stars.
Megaman (1 Star)Mega Man 1
Mega Man 2
Another very close one...
I'd have to say Mega Man 2 although this is based very strongly on personal preference rather than any great deal of objective reasoning. I love both runs and games but I think Rockman 2 better represents the NES Rockman games and TASing. Both have an equally high level of optimisation so I don't believe there is anything in Rockman that can outweigh what I've said about Rockman 2. However, I still think giving the star to Rockman could be justified.
Zelda (1 Star)Legend of Zelda
A Link to the Past
Links Awakening DX
At the moment I'd say LoZ would be best, although I think ALttP will probaly steal it when Tompa finishes his awesome run.
Castlevania (2 Stars)Castlevania
Castlevania: HoD
Castlevania: CotM
Super Castlevania IV
For the first star I think NES Castlevania should definitely get it. One of the best TASes ever made. Nuff said. For the second I think Cardboard's long CotM is the best representative of the GBA Castlevanias. The GBA series is sufficiently different to justify a second star.
Wire TAS (1 Star)Ninja Five-0
Umihara Kawase
Spiderman 3
Bionic Commando
I think wire TAS runs are really cool, but does the concept really deserve its own star category? I'm still undecided. If choosing a run that best represents a wire TAS I'd nominate Bionic Commando. I don't think Spiderman 3 is enough of a wire TAS in this context to be the wire TAS and I think that although Umihara Kawase is an aesthetically beautiful game I think BC represents everything better. Although, I do believe Spiderman to be the most entertaining movie by far (which is why I'm questioning the necessity of this category).
Special concept (2 Stars)MMX+MMX2 (2 games with one input)
Kings Bounty (skipped game by luck manipulation)
Monopoly (skipped game by luck manipulation)
Nightmare on Elmstreet “4player” (4 players)
Lost Vikings (3 players)
River City Ransom (playaround)
For special concept I'd have to go for King's Bounty and MMX + MMX2. An entire game beaten in less than 10 seconds is mind-numbing. Also, I love the idea of buying King's Bounty from amazon.com and completing it before the postman has left your driveway. This is a much better proof of the particular concept than monopoly is. I think the bi-game concept is much better for a star than 'one player controls X characters', especially as this has become somewhat trivial with multi-track recording.
NES games (3 Stars)Ninja Gaiden 2
Darkwing Duck
Mega Man 5
Gimmick!
Super Mario Bros 2
Journey to Silius
Batman
Arkanoid “Warpless”
Battle of Olympus
Legend of Zelda 2
Battletoads “2 player warpless”
For the individual console stars I think deviating from the popular franchises would be best as they already have their own categories above. Darkwing Duck should be starred as it is an amazing example of lag management, plus it's really entertaining. I think Gimmick! should get the second star. It's a colourful, fast, game that's very entertaining even if you don't know it. Riding on the stars is interesting from an optimisation standpoint as well.
SNES games (2 Stars)Super Mario World 2: Yoshi’s Island
Rockman and Forte "100 CDs"
Sparkster
Donkey Kong Country 1 any%
Biker Mice from Mars
The Mask
Still not totally decided here, and to be honest I think better nominations can be made. I'd like to see the R&F any% be starred as that run largely outdates the 100 CD run. I'll think more on this later.
Genesis (1 Star)Gunstar Heroes “ 2 player”
Ecco (which run?)
Dynamite headdy
Golden Axe
Comix Zone
This one is Golden Axe all the way for me. Some people have criticised it for being a typical hack 'n' slash game, but Trazz's run transcends this. He beats enemies so quickly that many parts of the run scroll like a platformer, also having enemies kill themselves while Tyris stands and watches is brilliant, plus many other awesome aspects. I can vouch for its optimisation aswell, having spent months TASing it with only 14 frames gained on the first level so far.
N64 (1 Star)Majora’s Mask
Goldeneye
Mischief Makers
Super Mario 64 120 star[/quote]
I think if only two N64 runs will be starred then SM64 doesn't need another one. Similarly, while Mischief Makers is awesome, I think his star should demonstrate good 3D optmisation and that run demonstarates incredible optimisation in a 2D game. Similarly, Majora's Mask isn't optimal enough to be starred and Swordless Link will improve on the current run by 3-4 minutes which I believe to be too much for a starred run. Having said that I do think MM is worthy of a star so I think that when the time comes SL's run should definitely be considered. I think Goldeneye should definitely be starred. Very optimal, very entertaining.
There's a lot of this I want to think over in the coming days so this isn't final. Also, I have a few opinions on categories and runs that I can't properly phrase at the moment and need to think on more.
It is three player. The Genesis version of Lost Vikings allows for cooperative play, so up to three people can take control of a Viking. The TAS uses three controllers and controls all three vikings simultaneously.
I see. I may have been remembering an older version of the run.
Meh, I'm not really in favour of rigid lists to determine movies. It will make it harder to remove them from the list at a later time. It's also allowing some pretty weak games on the list which will quickly come under fire, but will be hard to remove due to categorization issues. Movies should be one the list for their individuality and hence be good enough to be on the list in the first place; not because they belong to a certain group of games or list.
I know what you mean, but you shouldn't see it this way. The lists aren't that rigid, as the number of stars for each category can vary, and could theoretically even be 0. If some pretty weak runs are making their way on the starlist because of this, then feel free to suggest which group should have fewer, or even no stars assigned to them.
I think these lists enable will create a bit of variety to start out with at least. I don't plan that if a TAS that is suited for a star comes along, to categorize it in a list first, and then remove a star from that list... so you shouldn't see it as something rigid like that.
On the snes games:
Comicalflop wrote:
you picked 6 good choices :-( how to choose?
Mukki wrote:
Still not totally decided here, and to be honest I think better nominations can be made.
Funny.
Mukki wrote:
I'd like to see the R&F any% be starred as that run largely outdates the 100 CD run.
Someone else said the same. If we are later in the discussion, and R&F is decided upon to get a star, I'll make a R&F group first, with those two runs in it, and one potential star.
Alright. This gives some ground to work from.
Baxter wrote:
Instant stars (4 Stars)SMB3 any%
Excitebike
Super Mario 64 "0 star"
Gradius
No arguments here. Although I don't quite like '0 star' for reasons I stated earlier, I'm aware that others might, and it probably deserves its star.
Baxter wrote:
Super Mario World (1 Star)Super Mario World "small only"
Super Mario World any%
Super Mario World 96exit
Super Demo World 120exit
Tough choice. While I like any% better and feel the author did a really good job of providing entertainment for the run, 'small only' is also really amazing. As I was watching thhe runs, I realized that 'small only' was also a good example of how setting a limitation can lead to more entertaining runs. Length might be an issue here, but I think that 'small only' can hold audience interest for the entire run. That said I think 'small only' might be a better introduction for TAS concepts.
Baxter wrote:
Sonic (2 Stars)Sonic 3 & Knuckles
Sonic Advance 2
Sonic The Hedgehog
Sonic The Hedgehog 2
Sonic 1 and S3&K, with a little more push toward Sonic 1. In terms of being aesthetically pleasing and entertaining, these two are the best.
Baxter wrote:
Super Metroid 'in game' and Zero Mission '100 percent'. We don't need two 100% runs and Zero Mission is better, not only because Samus becomes completely badass when fully powered, but it doesn't play the fanfare on every item and door transitions are faster. Cutscenes in that game are also shorter. If you want great resource management, then 'in game' for Super Metroid is your pick. I'd also go for 'real time', but I prefer 'in game'
Baxter wrote:
Megaman (1 Star)Mega Man 1
Mega Man 2
Megaman 2. It's a lot more fun to watch in my opinion. The glitches are surprising and the boss battles are much better (two words: pause glitch).
Baxter wrote:
Zelda (1 Star)Legend of Zelda
A Link to the Past
Links Awakening DX
Link's Awakening is just so much flashier than the other two.
Baxter wrote:
Castlevania (2 Stars)Castlevania
Castlevania: HoD
Castlevania: CotM
Super Castlevania IV
NES Castlevania and Harmony of Dissonance (Juste run) hands down. Circle of the Moon is boring, unless you're talking about the glitch run, which is hilarious the first time you watch it, but does kind of get old. Super Castlevania is just not on the same level.
Baxter wrote:
Oi.
I'm not sure if this catergory is needed, but if you insist..
Man if Umihara's physics engine were put on a game with more substance, the resulting run would be amazing. As it is, the short run is too short, while the long run has those annoying boss fisghts where the strategy is basically hang out until they decide to leave you alone.
Bionic Commando is a no. While it does use a grapple, it doesn't have much in the way of grapple physics. thus instead of swinging, the player spends more time just grabbing places and letting that give him vertical momentum. It kind of leaves me feeling empty inside.
Spiderman 3 is bery fast. Very. However it does suffer from visible lag. Also jt's made up of a large number of bery short levels, which somehow make the run feel longer than it is. Add to that it goes so fast that you can't tell what's happening most of the time. i say "no." I think runs we recommend for first time viewers should be those where it's easy to understand what's happening on screen. You don't always have to understand how it's done, but it should be easy to see what the player is doing.
Based on that, my vote goes to Ninja 5-0. It has a few problems of its own, but they are less than the others, even though the character seems to defy the laws of physics. Also, why are the monkeys saying "thank you?"
Baxter wrote:
[Special concept (2 Stars)MMX+MMX2 (2 games with one input)
Kings Bounty (skipped game by luck manipulation)
Monopoly (skipped game by luck manipulation)
Nightmare on Elmstreet “4player” (4 players)
Lost Vikings (3 players)
River City Ransom (playaround)
X & X2 for the first one. It's a unique idea, and would be entertaining for someone seeing it the first time. For the other I'd say Lost Vikings. It's on my favorites list, so you know I like it. I wasn't sure it had much chance of becoming a star, though. I would support Nightmare on Elm Street as well. River City Ransom is fun, but we do have Gradius, which is also a playharound, adn the last fight drags on a bit.
Baxter wrote:
NES games (3 Stars)Ninja Gaiden 2
Darkwing Duck
Mega Man 5
Gimmick!
Super Mario Bros 2
Journey to Silius
Batman
Arkanoid “Warpless”
Battle of Olympus
Legend of Zelda 2
Battletoads “2 player warpless”
Probably the hardest decision for me out of all the categories. Battle of Olympus is a definite. After that it becomes harder to choose because there are quite a few good runs on this list. Four runs are battling for those last two spots: Battletoads, Darkwing Duck, Journey to Silius and Ninja Gaiden 2. I think for now I'll go for Darkwing and Battletoads. Battletoads has a very obvious effort toward being entertaining. As for Darkwing, the constant bounces are amusing to me. Also there are some small touches that are nice, like every once in a while bouncing in time with the music. I could go any way, though. I do believe that 3 stars is the right number for this group, but it made for a very hard decision.
Baxter wrote:
SNES games (2 Stars)Super Mario World 2: Yoshi’s Island
Rockman and Forte "100 CDs"
Sparkster
Donkey Kong Country 1 any%
Biker Mice from Mars
The Mask
Super Bomberman 2 and Biker Mice from Mars. Biker Mice has the camera glitch and Super Bomberman 2 just has insane gameplay.
Baxter wrote:
Genesis (1 Star)Gunstar Heroes “ 2 player”
Ecco (which run?)
Dynamite headdy
Golden Axe
Comix Zone
Gunstar Heroes '2 player' no contest. Comix Zone gets a very distant 2nd.
Baxter wrote:
N64 (1 Star)Majora’s Mask
Goldeneye
Mischief Makers
Super Mario 64 120 star
Here;s an idea. Why don't we just dump these and give the star to Tetrisphere?
I would like to note that there are two concepts which are hard to grasp without prior knowledge of the game you're watching and/or experience with TASing in general, and those are luck manipulation and lag management. Those aren't readily apparent in the finished product for new people. At least they weren't for me. Glitches are easy to see. Superior playing ability is too. We should avoid putting up runs just because of amazing luck manipulation. Remember, many Joe Schmoes are not going to read the description before watching. You need to ask yourself "Will the run stand on its own without any explanation?"
On the other side of things, it would be nice if we had some small blurbs before each run explaining why they were picked and what they demonstrate, kind of like alden's favorite movies page, just in case the people watching want more information.
