I'm just wondering is entering password allowed in middle of movie when one's aiming to start game from begin to end?
It just a question I just thought up of when I'm thinking about using password to refill weapon energy in Mega Man 5 GB. Such as looking at password, exit (or reset) back to title screen, enter password, weapon energy full.
I dunno; in the specific example mentioned, I don't really see how that's different from using a save game in a game that doesn't save exact stats.
But it does still feel kinda weird.
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I dunno; in the specific example mentioned, I don't really see how that's different from using a save game in a game that doesn't save exact stats.
But it does still feel kinda weird.
That's basically how I saw it. No different from save, soft reset, load.
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ventuz wrote:
...looking at password, exit (or reset) back to title screen, enter password...
I had this thought some time ago too. I came to the conclusion that using passwords like that is somewhat strange. You know, the imaginary superplayer would know the password already, so he does not need to go and take a look at it. If he was going to use a password, he would have used it immediately in the beginning.
At what point would you reset exactly? At the first frame the password is visible on the screen?
Xkeeper wrote:
No different from save, soft reset, load.
I think it is different.
The game state behaves like this:
Case 1 - Using a savegame
State A - Game begins
State B - Basic stuff happens
State C - Game is saved
*reset*
State D - Game begins again, but the game state is not identical with State A. The player can now load the savegame, which was not present in State A.
Case 2 - Using a password
State A - Game begins
State B - Basic stuff happens
State C - Password is seen
*reset*
State D - This state is identical with State A.
It seems that the password case brings forth some sort of meta-content, which is not present in the actual input file or the game state.
I don't know what the resulting Megaman 5 movie would look like. Maybe it would be more entertaining to some people. In any case, there could be problems in introducing "uses passwords for entertainment" category.
In Daffy Duck: Fowl Play, whenever you complete a level a long sequence is played and the password is shown on the screen during that sequence. Is it allowed to reset the game and enter the password after having it be on the screen for 1 frame? It would save 400 frames per level.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u16jM5VndGA
The scenario proposed by MUGG blends into this other discussion, and in my personal opinion, I would be in favour of allowing passwords in this specific way, since all they do is to skip cutscene time, not unlike what deaths or resets do into other movies. In the end, the TASed levels would be the same, but the resulting movie would be nicer on the eyes. Furthermore if there is a global RNG of some sort you might even be able to manipulate luck by resetting one frame later or one frame sooner. You'd skip only 399 frames from the cutscene instead of 400, but you can have better luck during the level. Given that I never played that game so I don't know if there's actually anything that should be manipulated.
Let's consider for a moment the real slippery slope that could potentially result from allowing passwords to save time. There are many games where you can use a password to jump directly to a certain level. Why shouldn't it be allowed in such a game to use a password to jump directly from the start to the final level? After all, it saves a lot of time.
If we don't allow those passwords to be used in that fashion, but we do allow the kind of usage as discussed here, then this rule becomes very arbitrary.
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A rare occasion I see myself agreeing with Warp. Quite a slippery slope. How does one define when to reset? Since you already know the password before hand, any time you state will seem incredibly arbitrary, which is something we try to avoid here; may as well just use it to skip straight to the end.
I should note I was never comfortable with the UpA thing of Metroid and Zelda, but that has the advantage of resetting your session and is unique to that particular "run". At least pressing UpA now has a different effect of pressing UpA then.
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I can think of a bunch of published movies that uses a game restart sequence in a similar fashion.
How about we view obtaining the password in-game (and be physically visible for at least 1 frame) as a method of verifying the password so it can used after a reset? Passwords, SRAM, save data, etc. to unlock extra difficulties, new game+, etc. need to be verified to prevent tampered data from being used. Because those verification movies are beyond the scope of the run, the verification movies are not required to be in the runs.
If you are doing a run from start to finish and get the password for level 2, you have verified that the password can be earned and was not tampered with. Unfortunately since the run is supposed to start from level 1, you can't just start the run from level 2. If you were to include the verification movie to get the password to level 2 as part of the run, I think you should be able to use that password anywhere after it has been obtained.
If this isn't allowed, I think all published runs that rely on saving data and "using a game restart sequence" be removed seeing how it is almost completely identical to getting a password and resetting. Even interrupting the game while saving can result in corrupted save data which would be the equivalent to hacked passwords. Both can be used as long as they are viewed as valid by the game except obtaining hacked passwords from within a run would be nearly impossible (I say nearly because somebody might find a game that could be glitched/exploited into displaying any password you desire regardless if it is valid or not).
I think almost every possible run involving passwords has a save data counter part that has been accepted/rejected (with the exception of ventuz's example unless I overlooked a run).
Warp:
It wouldn't be arbitrary. One is skipping gameplay that the viewer wants to see; the other is skipping non-gameplay that the viewer doesn't want to see (non-skippable movies are are a bad design choice for a reason, after all).
The purpose of a run is to be enjoyable, and the rules should follow that goal. Look at the result, not the means etc.
the other is skipping non-gameplay that the viewer doesn't want to see (non-skippable movies are are a bad design choice for a reason, after all).
How do we know who wants or doesn't want to see cutscenes? Many people don't, but that doesn't mean nobody wants.
(Personally I like watching the cutscenes in certain games, eg. LoZ:OoT. They don't bother me at all.)
A rare occasion I see myself agreeing with Warp. Quite a slippery slope. How does one define when to reset? Since you already know the password before hand, any time you state will seem incredibly arbitrary, which is something we try to avoid here; may as well just use it to skip straight to the end.
Everyone keeps saying the superhuman player already knows all the passwords. But what if he doesn't? He plays the game for the first time, and sees the password, then decides to reset the game on the next frame (after he saw the pw). That's how I'd imagine the superhuman player.
Personally, I'm not in favor of handling passwords like this, I was just wondering what everyone would think about it. I think it should not be used since the score and life count are erased. A TAS is usually about starting an adventure (by beating level by level) and then beating a final boss and seeing the credits. But erasing the score and life count and segmenting levels like this kind of kills the "adventure feeling".
I say that it isn't about knowing the password, but about the fact that the set task includes the stuff before the password. So I am in fact saying that an even earlier reset point would be fine.
My opinion on the matter...
If the password causes any portion of the game to be skipped, such as skipping levels or collecting items, then it should be disallowed. This includes the provided examples of having already completed the level or collected the items before using the password that you 'earned'. (Examples: early Mega Man games, Metroid, Biker Mice From Mars)
If the password starts the game from the beginning, but unusual pretenses, then it should be allowed. Depending on the differences, it may warrant a separate category. (Examples: DKC3's TUFST mode, Legend of Zelda's 2nd Quest, New Super Mario Bros.'s Luigi Mode)
Technically, it can be said that resetting at the frame a password is available, then resetting to input the password (at times this would be faster) would technically be okay. However... resetting so frequently like that could be extremely jarring, so it would still be a good idea in most situations to make the speed/entertainment tradeoff of simply progressing normally.
First a movie gets submitted, and ends up accepted despite breaking rules other runs have been rejected for. And when I vote less than spectacularly on this movie, I become the victim of harassment and threats.
Yay, favoritism.
Technically, it can be said that resetting at the frame a password is available, then resetting to input the password (at times this would be faster) would technically be okay. However... resetting so frequently like that could be extremely jarring, so it would still be a good idea in most situations to make the speed/entertainment tradeoff of simply progressing normally.
I think it would also go against the principle of tool-assistance that we can "see into the future". TASes don't need to wait for things to happen in order to "predict" that they will happen. Luck manipulation is the most obvious example, but there are others as well (eg. knowing in advance when and where monsters will appear, and eg. choosing a path based on that information before, technically speaking, the information becomes available in a normal first-time playthrough).
Making an exception with passwords (iow. passwords can only be used when they have appeared on screen) would be quite arbitrary and doesn't make much sense in this context.
Indeed. One needs only mention a hypothetical point where it'd be okay to reset to input a password before it shifts into moving that point earlier and earlier.
Let's use one of the password-based Mega Man games as a basis. If it becomes "okay" to reset on the first frame of the password screen, then it's only a matter of time before the distinction becomes arbitrary. There are plenty of times where the same conclusion could be reached by resetting earlier. After the Weapon Get screen fades? After the boss room of the stage fades? After the final shot connects with the boss? After the moment the final shot is fired? Any of these reach the same obvious conclusion, but each one is even more unappealing for watching than the last.
Password abuse is hard to pin down, would be highly contested if it were allowed, and would quite frankly take hits on the entertainment of the run, for a site whose primary goal is entertaining runs.
...Sorry. I just needed to get that off my chest. I'm done ranting now.
First a movie gets submitted, and ends up accepted despite breaking rules other runs have been rejected for. And when I vote less than spectacularly on this movie, I become the victim of harassment and threats.
Yay, favoritism.
That being said, there actually might be a few games where using a password (as early as possible) to jump as far as possible in the game might be desirable. Most usually if the game consists of an endless stream of almost-identical levels, and playing only the last level can be of any interest. OTOH such games are extremely rare. (Dr. Mario might be an example, but I don't remember if a password is used to skip to the final level, or whether it's selectable as-is.)
Case 1 - Using a savegame
State A - Game begins
State B - Basic stuff happens
State C - Game is saved
*reset*
State D - Game begins again, but the game state is not identical with State A. The player can now load the savegame, which was not present in State A.
Case 2 - Using a password
State A - Game begins
State B - Basic stuff happens
State C - Password is seen
*reset*
State D - This state is identical with State A.
It seems that the password case brings forth some sort of meta-content, which is not present in the actual input file or the game state.
Aqfaq nailed it with this message.
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Dr. Mario had a level select screen where you could select any level from 0-20, similar to the one in Tetris.
My thought about passwords is this: if, by soft-resetting a game, your current password is already entered for you on the password screen, then it should be allowed. This sidesteps the whole meta-content issue and essentially constitutes the same thing as normal old save abuse.
Aqfaq wrote:
State D - Game begins again, but the game state is not identical with State A. The player can now load the savegame, which was not present in State A.
This would still hold true.
So my thought is that using passwords is okay, entering or altering passwords, if they are not part of the fundamental premise of the movie, should constitute cheating.
