There has been some theoretical talk in the past that if one wanted to make a game which is as hard to TAS as possible, what it should have. This got me thinking: Are there any existing games (or entire game types) which are absolutely and totally unsuitable for TASing? Besides color-a-dinosaur, that is.
So I came up with the game type which I think really is by far the most unsuitable for TASing: A computer chess game.
For the TAS to make any sense, the program would have to be set to its absolute maximum difficulty, and the goal of the TAS would be, naturally, to defeat it in as few moves as possible. However, if the program is set to its maximum difficulty, the entire "run" would probably take several hours (if not even days, depending on the program), 99.999% of the time being just a static screen where nothing happens (ie. all the time that the computer spends thinking), except perhaps for a time-counting clock. It would be the most boring TAS of all times (perhaps second only to that Desert Bus TAS).
It would not make any sense to "TAS" a computer chess game at a fast setting because then it becomes trivial to beat, making the whole tool-assistance more or less moot.
It's a real pity, though. It would be interesting to see a computer chess program beaten in as few moves as possible at its hardest difficulty setting. (This would be quite challenging for the TASer too, as it would require pretty strong chess skills, regardless of the TASer having as much thinking time as he wants. Maybe even grandmaster level with the best chess programs out there.)
Any ideas of other games or game types which would be completely and absolutely unsuitable for TASing?
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Warp wrote:
So I came up with the game type which I think really is by far the most unsuitable for TASing: A computer chess game.
Not quite.
Warp wrote:
For the TAS to make any sense, the program would have to be set to its absolute maximum difficulty, and the goal of the TAS would be, naturally, to defeat it in as few moves as possible.
Not necessarily.
There's a game on Gameboy called the 4-in-1 funpack. It includes Chess, Checkers, Backgammon, and Reversi (Othello).
The Chess engine is Sargon, which acts really stupid in that pack for some reason.
Beating it quickly would probably be pretty boring. What can be interesting however is exploiting the engine.
My father called me over one day to watch him play. He starts making one bogus completely irrational move after another. And the computer responds just in kind. My father moves his Queen right next to the computer's with no strings attached, and the computer, just goes ahead and moves a pawn.
My father showed me how to knock off every single piece the computer had, without losing a single one of his own, and then checkmating it. I should probably ask him for the move list, as it'd be pretty funny to watch.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
When I read the title what came to mind was an image of puzzle games where there's no hidden information - picture a sudoku game for instance, where the only thing a TAS can do is fill it in really fast or in creative patterns.
There's a game on Gameboy called the 4-in-1 funpack. It includes Chess, Checkers, Backgammon, and Reversi (Othello).
The Chess engine is Sargon, which acts really stupid in that pack for some reason.
Beating it quickly would probably be pretty boring. What can be interesting however is exploiting the engine.
My father called me over one day to watch him play. He starts making one bogus completely irrational move after another. And the computer responds just in kind. My father moves his Queen right next to the computer's with no strings attached, and the computer, just goes ahead and moves a pawn.
My father showed me how to knock off every single piece the computer had, without losing a single one of his own, and then checkmating it. I should probably ask him for the move list, as it'd be pretty funny to watch.
When I read the title what came to mind was an image of puzzle games where there's no hidden information - picture a sudoku game for instance, where the only thing a TAS can do is fill it in really fast or in creative patterns.
Yeah, that's exactly what I thought of too... But I was thinking more a sokoban style game.
While not completely unsuitable, I'd say that Rampage and Galaga are two exceptionally bad games to TAS. They're repetitive, endless (IIRC), and most of the action could be handled optimally by a fairly simplistic bot. They also lack aesthetic appeal, having almost no music or storyline.
I guess you could try to define a genre of 80s arcade game on those lines.
DeFender1031 wrote:
Yeah, that's exactly what I thought of too... But I was thinking more a sokoban style game.
Picross games (Snes, GB or any other version) would be a horrible TAS to watch.
I suppose I'm agreeing with the 'no hidden info puzzle game' category but furthermore, the fact that you usually have loads of time anyway and that there is only one solution to the puzzle precludes these games' players from throwing in surprises or cool trickes like in the Puyo Puyo TASs.
I'm just some random guy. Don't let my words get you riled - I have my opinions but they're only mine.
Picross games (Snes, GB or any other version) would be a horrible TAS to watch.
I disagree. The path for the fastest solutions are very untrivial (at least on the SNES version) and just seeing it solved in patterns which seem semi-random, but in the end turn out to be the single fastest solutions would be very entertaining to me. For some reason the majority disagrees.
But instead, the TAS solution would just go through from one corner snaking through the board marking every square properly on the way until it painstakingly filled in every square correctly since there was unlimited time to figure out the solution beforehand.
Beating a chess program on the highest difficulty in the fewest possible moves wouldn't be so hard if you were to use the latest chess programs to assist you in making moves. I think playing a chess computer on the easiest difficulty and showing how terrible the AI it is would be more interesting to watch.
EDIT: A better idea would be to have 2 players playing against each other and making high level moves.
But instead, the TAS solution would just go through from one corner snaking through the board marking every square properly on the way until it painstakingly filled in every square correctly since there was unlimited time to figure out the solution beforehand.
Snaking through the board in a unique way for every picross. On the SNES, there are also two pointers that will work together starting from opposite ends. Also, the SNES version has two buttons for marking a square - that means going zig-zag (or like left+up in frame one and then down in frame two) you can mark one square per frame, but if you go in straight lines, it's only one square in two frames. I think this creates very exciting problems, that I'd be very entertained to see solved.
I would get "Wtf, this is really the fastest way for this one? I'll watch that in slow-mo again." and "Wow, this one looked kind of cool" sensations from watching it. I'd probably save state and watch every solution a few times until I "get it". I'm sure it'd be fun to me. I didn't know I was that unique of a person in that regard though, lol.
Beating a chess program on the highest difficulty in the fewest possible moves wouldn't be so hard if you were to use the latest chess programs to assist you in making moves. I think playing a chess computer on the easiest difficulty and showing how terrible the AI it is would be more interesting to watch.
I don't know. I don't think it would be all that funny to see a computer making bad moves for the sole reason that it's not given enough time to think. Also there wouldn't be any "superhuman" element to this because even a mediocre human player would be able to beat the computer at such setting.
EDIT: A better idea would be to have 2 players playing against each other and making high level moves.
That would have nothing to do with TASing. It would simply be replaying a high-level chess game. You can watch those online.
family feud has nothing superhuman to it yet it seems to be a favorite, and you dont have to share the sense of humor of everyone else, I think it would be interesting, although the one that nach says about completely dominating the ai without losing pieces sounds the most interesting
I'd say an RPG with an unmanipulatable RNG, but, as Upthorn pointed out, Chrono Trigger has an awful RNG, and it had a published run, (granted, the current one doesn't count), that manipulated it... somewhat.
Every RPG should have an easily-manipulated RNG. It is too bad that most don't.
Sage advice from a friend of Jim: So put your tinfoil hat back in the closet, open your eyes to the truth, and realize that the government is in fact causing austismal cancer with it's 9/11 fluoride vaccinations of your water supply.
A Sims TAS would be awesome. Get the best career, max out everything, build an impossibly huge mansion, romance all the neighbors and build a collection of them in the obligatory dungeon. The run ends when the player sets fire to the house and moves to Mexico with the insurance money.
I agree. There's a lot of potential in The Sims (and similar games) for a funny playaround (and in some cases even a speed-oriented run). It might be a long run (depending on the goals), but it could very well be quite entertaining.
It usually follows that a fun game makes good TAS material, but I think X-Com is a noteworthy exception.
X-Com is about strategy, managing risk, and trying desperately to keep your soldiers from being killed after you develop emotional attachments to them. Unlike with most games, there's no quickload for when bad things happen. You don't go back to the last autosave when you suddenly get killed. There are few things you can't recover from, so the idea is to roll with the punches.
Any kind of savestate abuse pretty much kills the drama, kind of like editing a movie so that nothing bad ever happens. Watching a speedrun is kind of like skipping straight to the end of Citizen Kane. Maybe there's novelty value in it, but it completely misses the point.
Qix, Pengo, and basically most classic games where one level looks more or less like the previous one.
Maybe I'm biased, but for me speedruns are for platformers, and anything that is too far from being one, doesn't quite arouse my interest.
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Nach wrote:
My father showed me how to knock off every single piece the computer had, without losing a single one of his own, and then checkmating it. I should probably ask him for the move list, as it'd be pretty funny to watch.
