Joined: 8/1/2010
Posts: 13
Location: Centralia, IL
I'm working on making a TAS of Dungeons and Dragons: Warriors of the Eternal Sun.
Now, I'm not smart enough to write Lua scripts or to abuse programming errors or anything like that. That being said, I'm going through frame by frame to make the fastest possible completion time by manipulating luck, etc.
Would this run be acceptable like that? Any feedback would be appreciated.
The reason I ask is because I don't want to work super hard on this TAS and then it get rejected over some petty stuff like lack of technical knowledge.
"Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts: I am the first and I am the last; and beside me there is no God." -Isaiah 44:6 Jesus
I can't say I know the game, but "abuse of programming errors" just means using glitches (which many games do not have) and Lua scripts are often only used to display information to reduce the amount of rerecords it takes to do something.
My point: If you can catch a Missingno. in Pokemon, you're smart enough to use programming errors, and knowledge of Lua is not required for TASing. Hope that helps.
Joined: 8/1/2010
Posts: 13
Location: Centralia, IL
Thanks for responding Scepheo.
It's official then. I will be working to finish my TAS of D&D: WOTES within a week or two. As of now, I believe I'm totally owning it as quick as it can possibly be done.
In brief, I have discovered the fewest possible steps necessary to complete the game (fewer than mentioned in any walk-through.) When I have completed the TAS, I will give the usual detailed instructions on what I did to beat the game in the fastest time.
I look forward to entertaining people with my TAS as much as people have done for me on this site with their work.
God bless and Jesus loves you!
"Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts: I am the first and I am the last; and beside me there is no God." -Isaiah 44:6 Jesus
"But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him." - 1 Corinthians 2:9
Joined: 12/8/2012
Posts: 706
Location: Missouri, USA
Thanks for the encouragement, Aqfaq!
3399 frames saved, so far: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1024509020/Dungeons%20%26%20Dragons%20-%20Warriors%20of%20the%20Eternal%20Sun%20%28USA%2C%20Europe%29.gmv
Lots of improvements and small optimizations. Talking to Marmillian the first time wasn't necessary. No shopping or uncovering hidden items was done in town, either. Almost six seconds were saved on the overworld due to optimizations and a faster route.
Inside the Oltec Tradeway Cavern, I only took the +1 bow for the Thief and the first mound of jewelry in order to pay for a Caravan route, later on. I also killed off the other three members since going solo with the Thief will be much faster. I spent about 20 extra frames making feeble attacks toward the Dragon and Fire Giant. I thought it will be a little more entertaining to have something going on while I waited in combat for them to strike.
Overall, this run is looking very promising. Like abusing Bellenue in my Traysia run, having the Thief rapid-fire critical shots should end up being faster than using the Lightning Rod and waiting for the charges to fizzle. I also can't wait to show off the Azcan overworld fight skip!
"But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him." - 1 Corinthians 2:9
TAS i'm interested:
Megaman series, specially the RPGs! Where is the mmbn1 all chips TAS we deserve? Where is the Command Mission TAS?
i'm slowly moving away from TASing fighting games for speed, maybe it's time to start finding some entertainment value in TASing.
Joined: 12/8/2012
Posts: 706
Location: Missouri, USA
Thanks, grassini! Hope you enjoy the run!
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/289473282/Dungeons%20%26%20Dragons%20-%20Warriors%20of%20the%20Eternal%20Sun%20%28USA%2C%20Europe%29.gmv
Is anyone savvy at finding RAM addresses? This WIP ends up losing 766 frames (down to 2633 frames saved) due to me having to cast 'Hidden' six times in a row in order for it work. It seems have no success rate, whatsoever, while inside dungeons. I spent over two hours trying to narrow down RAM addresses, to no avail. Otherwise, I saved 123 frames inside the Beastman Caves. I may try to tighten this part up a bit before heading back to the Castle.
If anyone can provide any help, I'd greatly appreciate it!
edit: Went back a bit, just after leaving the Oltec Bypass, and managed to activate it in only three attempts. Not ideal, but it's a little more tolerable.
"But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him." - 1 Corinthians 2:9
Joined: 12/8/2012
Posts: 706
Location: Missouri, USA
Early Memorial Day update.
8660 frames saved, so far: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/52794223/WOTES%20Azcan%20fight%20demo.gmv
This WIP plays all the way to the Azcan Jungle and demonstrates the Azcan overworld fight skip I was hyping about. I freely moved about afterward to demonstrate that the fight won't respawn again. (obviously this won't be part of the final run).
Enjoy!
edit: As an added bonus, I tried sequence breaking even further by going directly to the Oltec Cavern from the beginning of the game (even tool-asssited, this wasn't easy!). Unfortunately, the programers had the same thought I had in mind...
"But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him." - 1 Corinthians 2:9
Joined: 12/8/2012
Posts: 706
Location: Missouri, USA
Haven't forgotten about this one! Since working on Mashou, I've switched to using Bizhawk. Especially on a game like this where you need to optimize overworld movements, Bizhawk's rewind feature is invaluable in making those precise, real-time adjustments.
I've imported my movie, but unfortunately it desyncs near the beginning (my party runs into a random encounter that didn't appear using Gens). Not a major loss since I remember the route well and can quickly make up time using the rewind feature.
I'm anticipating up to a 30 second improvement from my cancelled WIP a while back. I'll keep everyone posted on my new progress!
edit: If only there was a way to enter the Oltec Cavern from the very beginning... I can -- just barely -- make it there by abusing the Healing Rod. However, without at least one Ring of Fire Resistance, the game won't allow you to advance further once inside.
"But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him." - 1 Corinthians 2:9
Joined: 12/8/2012
Posts: 706
Location: Missouri, USA
About to enter the Beastman Caves again - 775 frames ahead of my old submission.
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1027834756/Dungeons%20%26%20Dragons%20-%20Warriors%20of%20the%20Eternal%20Sun%20%28USA%2C%20Europe%29.gmv.bkm
I got 'Hidden' to activate on the first try -- and at the very beginning of the game, no less. I also found a few more movement optimizations on the overworld.
I skipped the Oltec Passageway entirely, deciding instead to let Uklangor and his Lieutenants steadily pick off my other party members during combat. I picked up some +1 spears to sell back at the shop to pay for the Caravan Route, this time around. My Thief will be equipped with just a standard Bow along with a +1 Spear. Damage output will still be around the same, with the added benefit of having an extra RNG manipulation due to having an alternate weapon.
I'm pleasantly surprised that I may be able to shave up to a full minute from my prior submission. In addition to a faster Azcan Temple overworld fight skip, I've discovered that I can skip some dungeon fights, here and there, which should save significant amounts of time.
The biggest obstacle to progressing in this run has been due to the Thief's ability to disarm traps. In particular, the Thief has a hidden value that determines his ability to even be able to disarm traps, period. This value randomly increases during a level-up; and if it isn't high enough, I can't disarm any of the traps inside the Temple. This has been a headache to test. Hopefully, it won't be such a hassle now.
"But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him." - 1 Corinthians 2:9
Joined: 12/8/2012
Posts: 706
Location: Missouri, USA
Have I mentioned that I love Bizhawk? Being able to rewind in real-time makes optimizing movements much quicker and easier!
WIP 2: About to enter the Azcan Temple: 1,683 frames (28+ seconds) ahead of prior submission.
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1622234572/Dungeons%20%26%20Dragons%20-%20Warriors%20of%20the%20Eternal%20Sun%20%28USA%2C%20Europe%29.gmv.bkm
However, now I've run into the same exact problem that I had before when trying to update the run. For some reason, my Thief is, again, not disarming traps as he was before. Before, once my Thief hit level 5 on the 4th floor, I would be able to disarm traps via luck manipulation. It was all a matter of waiting for the right frame to appear, before moving on the tile.
Now, it appears RNG dependent. No amount of waiting will change the success rate. I'm only getting a slight success rate by damaging enemies to change the RNG. This is leaving me stumped on what to do next.
edit: I have not figured out a solution to this... Whereas before I could manipulate the trap RNG via luck manipulation (i.e. wait for the right frame), now I can't manipulate it at all, save for wasting time by attacking enemies/taking damage. There has to be a hidden stat value that determines the Thief's ability to luck manipulate the traps, because this has just been strange (and frustrating).
Could anyone savvy with RAM addresses or Lua lend a hand, or give some advice? At this point, this is a run-killer since walking around all of the traps would cost at least 15 seconds.
"But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him." - 1 Corinthians 2:9
Joined: 4/8/2005
Posts: 1573
Location: Gone for a year, just for varietyyyyyyyyy!!
If you can find the player HP or other easily searchable stats, the trap detection stat (if there is one) is probably located near to those RAM addresses. You can then try to "poke" the suspected address and freeze it at a low/high value and then try walking onto a trap to verify that you have found the correct RAM address.
If it is just bad luck with the RNG, then I don't know what to do. Maybe you could go back in time and do some stuff in a different order to change the luck?
Joined: 12/8/2012
Posts: 706
Location: Missouri, USA
Aqfaq wrote:
If it is just bad luck with the RNG, then I don't know what to do. Maybe you could go back in time and do some stuff in a different order to change the luck?
Well, I went back to my old file and messed around in the Beastman Caves. I am now certain that the Thief's "trap RNG" ability is determined by a hidden stat that randomly increases on level-up (in particular, level 4). By defeating enemies at different times to reach level 4, my Thief both obtained and lost this ability to disarm traps based on frame-dependent luck manipulation.
Anyhow, I'm now back on my current run in the Beastman Caves. By killing the Phobosuchus with a different finishing strike (missing with the bow, then killing with spear), I believe I have now obtained that needed "trap RNG" ability! I thoroughly tested this by going back to the Temple and making sure that luck manipulation was now operating as desired.
edit: Back to the drawing board on the Thief's "trap RNG".
Now I'm not sure whether it is dependent on level or not. I did a slightly different route where I skipped killing the Phobosuchus, entering the Azcan Temple at level 3. I was hoping that I'd be able to obtain level 4 early on and be able to manipulate gaining the ability. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to get this to work.
Until I can figure out what is going on, I'm putting further progress on hold.
Alternate route with level 3 Thief at Azcan Temple (around the same time):
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/68126086/Dungeons%20%26%20Dragons%20-%20Warriors%20of%20the%20Eternal%20Sun%20%28USA%2C%20Europe%29.gmv.bkm
"But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him." - 1 Corinthians 2:9
Joined: 4/8/2005
Posts: 1573
Location: Gone for a year, just for varietyyyyyyyyy!!
It is also possible that the "hidden value" you are looking for is the property of the trap, not the property of the player. Maybe the traps are generated randomly?
Joined: 12/8/2012
Posts: 706
Location: Missouri, USA
Aqfaq wrote:
It is also possible that the "hidden value" you are looking for is the property of the trap, not the property of the player. Maybe the traps are generated randomly?
The traps aren't randomly generated, there are just way too many of them to try luck manipulating through without the reliable means I had before.
Level 4 is the 'deal-breaker' in that there are 10 traps along the way to the 5th floor with the Ring of Fire Resistance. Individually, running around each one costs around 50 frames. Going both ways, this would cut a huge chunk out of the savings I've already made, so far. It really stinks too, since I found a huge improvement last night on the 5th floor that would save about 10 seconds.
It is such a mystery what causes this hidden value/condition to activate. It seems to occur either in the Beastman Caves, or maybe in the Valley along the way to the Temple...
I think I'm going to experiment with the old submission file and narrow down what caused it to occur the first time. It would be too much of a shame not to complete this run now that I've found all of these different improvements.
edit: After experimenting with my old submission file, I've narrowed down the activation of this ability to the killing of the Phobosuchus (like I suspected earlier). This monster's ID, or the conditions involving its defeat, must have some sort of 'flag' that grants the Thief's "Trap RNG".
Going to try and find its RAM address.
edit 2: Now it appears to be a bit more complicated. After further testing upon killing the Phobosuchus, it now appears that the amount of XP you gain after defeating him (and gaining level 4) is a factor to obtaining the ability. I tested an unoptimized run where I killed Phobosuchus, ran to the Temple with the ability activated, and rewound back to the point where I landed the killing blow. However, after testing again from the exact point where I killed him, I lost the ability upon returning to the Temple again. The amount of Troglodytes I killed varied between the two test runs; hence, why I suspect this is an XP issue.
...I'd be lying if I said this wasn't becoming nerve-racking. However, at least I've found a lead that could develop into a solution.
"But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him." - 1 Corinthians 2:9
This sounds like something which could be figured out with a bit of disassembly. There are several people skilled in this on IRC. For example r57shell and feos helped me with taking apart the RNG in Batman and Robin. Once you see the calculation steps used to determine if a trap will be disabled or not you can monitor the input data and see what you can do to manipulate that data.
And from what you say, it doesn't necessarily seem that Aqfaq is wrong. Just because the traps' locations, types and such are fixed, doesn't mean their "stats" are. Your killing of the Troglodytes may well have cycled the RNG to the point of generating easy-to-disarm traps. Just saying it still sounds like a possibility.
Still, if you want to be sure, follow Truncated's advice. Using trace logging (does Genesis have trace logging on BizHawk? I'd think so) it should be quite doable to figure out what factors into the disarming logic.
Joined: 12/8/2012
Posts: 706
Location: Missouri, USA
Truncated wrote:
This sounds like something which could be figured out with a bit of disassembly. There are several people skilled in this on IRC. For example r57shell and feos helped me with taking apart the RNG in Batman and Robin. Once you see the calculation steps used to determine if a trap will be disabled or not you can monitor the input data and see what you can do to manipulate that data.
That idea sounds like it would work! The way you worded it appears to be exactly what is occurring. Between killing the Phobosuchus and the amount of Troglodytes, there is some type of calculation going on that determines whether or not the Thief can easily disarm traps.
Scepheo wrote:
And from what you say, it doesn't necessarily seem that Aqfaq is wrong. Just because the traps' locations, types and such are fixed, doesn't mean their "stats" are. Your killing of the Troglodytes may well have cycled the RNG to the point of generating easy-to-disarm traps. Just saying it still sounds like a possibility.
Still, if you want to be sure, follow Truncated's advice. Using trace logging (does Genesis have trace logging on BizHawk? I'd think so) it should be quite doable to figure out what factors into the disarming logic.
Ah, I see what you're talking about. I think I misunderstood Aqfaq, in that case (generating easy-to-disarm traps vs. randomly generating the traps, themselves).
Bizhawk does have a Trace Logger feature for the Genesis. I've never used it before, so I'll have to get up to speed on it and learn how to apply it.
"But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him." - 1 Corinthians 2:9
Joined: 12/8/2012
Posts: 706
Location: Missouri, USA
Eureka, I think I've finally found it :D
I asked Feos to help me with the disassembly and made two videos for him to analyze: My current WIP without the ability, and an unoptimized run to the Azcan Temple (made after the Phobosuchus fight) with the ability intact. Just now, I decided to analyze the unoptimized run with my prior submission to see if there were any similarities -- which there are!
In both runs, as I'm escaping the horde of Troglodytes past the open hall in the Beastman Caves, I noticed that a Troglodyte attacked and missed me just as I rushed past it (I listed every attack/miss/etc. in a Word document and compared results). With my current WIP, I tested this out and manipulated a miss from the last group of Troglodytes. Upon making my way back the Temple, I was pleasantly surprised to find that my Thief could now manipulate trap RNG by waiting for the right frame to successfully disarm.
From a technical standpoint, I have no idea what this means (perhaps misses add to the Thief's disarm ability??). However, all I need to do now is re-optimize my route back to the Temple to make completely sure the ability is intact. If so, this run is getting finished!
edit: WE'VE GOT TRAP RNG ACTIVATED! I am pwning this Temple! New WIP will be posted soon!
"But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him." - 1 Corinthians 2:9
Joined: 12/8/2012
Posts: 706
Location: Missouri, USA
Azcan Temple finished -- I never wanna see ya again!
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1015803022/WOTES%20TAS%201.3.bkm
1876 frame improvement over my cancelled submission. A bit of time was lost in the Beastman Caves due to manipulating a miss. Still, a 31+ second improvement (so far) is pretty sweet.
"But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him." - 1 Corinthians 2:9
"But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him." - 1 Corinthians 2:9
