Skilled player (1431)
Joined: 7/15/2007
Posts: 1468
Location: Sweden
I agree that an "all quests" run is well justified, as I understand that the any% run is going to skip a lot of the game. But it should definitely be done from a fresh savefile (as in not NG+).
Agare Bagare Kopparslagare
Player (24)
Joined: 4/23/2005
Posts: 435
Location: Germany
Bag of Magic Food wrote:
Second cat? Don't you mean MAXIMUM CATS? Oh dear, I've found myself considering the mechanics of the cat food system again...
I read the first time from more cats for some days about the DS game. Never know, that there will be more then 2, when you get more cat food. So yes, I would like to see Maximum Cats, and would like to see how this work.
Last TAS finished: Final Fantasy Adventure (4.0 Warp Glitch Run) WIP in the moment: Tail Gator (GB) Matty
BigBoct
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Editor, Former player
Joined: 8/9/2007
Posts: 1692
Location: Tiffin/Republic, OH
moozooh wrote:
Eh, NewGame+? OHKO'ing every boss with glitches or Luminaire or whatever? Yeah, that should be very entertaining. >_>
We already have hero of the day's run beating the game from fresh SRAM, and another run doing that (using fresh SRAM) would be nearly identical to his up to around getting the Winged Epoch, which IMO does not make for good entertainment (that's at least three hours of nearly identical movie, probably more; I don't remember exactly how long it takes hero of the day's movie to get there.) The way I'm figuring it, doing an "All Quests" run as a NewGame+ would tremendously cut down on the length of it (you'd be mostly one-shotting bosses probably up to Magus, no need to train) and personally, I would also make it a Speed/Entertainment Tradeoff run and show off all of the Double- and TripleTechs, including Rock-enabled ones. There'd also be no gathering of equipment needed; you can just do all that in the verification movie. Doing that (creating a verification movie) is what's really daunting me; as I mentioned, I just beat CT a few days ago from a fresh start, and I'm not too keen on doing it again so soon. (I don't know the details on the SRAM Saturn used for his quick-win NG+, but I would bet that only Crono and Marle are optimized, since they're the only characters used.)
Previous Name: boct1584
Experienced player (822)
Joined: 11/18/2006
Posts: 2426
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If you're interested in creating a good new game + file, but don't want to waste several hours of your life, just do some research into which RAM addresses correlate to whatever item/stat you want, and then just tweak the RAM address (using cheats), save the file (in game), and start a NG+ run with that file (with cheats off, obv). The stats will still be there, you'll save time, and technically your movie won't be using cheats since your source file could have been created by sweating away at your keyboard.
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BigBoct
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Joined: 8/9/2007
Posts: 1692
Location: Tiffin/Republic, OH
That's not a bad idea, but unless I'm misunderstanding the Rules page, it says that any SRAM has to be verified via an input movie that can create it. If I'm wrong and that's NOT the case, I would just continue playing my current save file over and over to create the requisite SRAM.
Previous Name: boct1584
Joined: 2/1/2008
Posts: 347
Someone could easily manipulate the save file to create a weird glitch (sort of like the resetting while saving errors found recently in this game, except with direct manipulation) and claim that it was saved in-game with cheats (which can't be recorded due to the cheats used). That's probably why.
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Joined: 7/2/2007
Posts: 3960
If you want a "legit" movie making a savegame that has a maxed-out party, look up the last few New-Game+ runs. The most recent one was for the Japanese ROM to enable a special glitch, but the one before that should be usable.
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Player (209)
Joined: 2/18/2005
Posts: 1451
I was actually in favour of not using the NewGame+ file for the "All Quests" run, since with inichi's new discovery to duplicate power, magic and speed tabs, you can beat the game pretty quickly without any leveling up at all. But Solon has a good point to use the NG+ one, because this allows you to show off all the cool single- double- and tripple techs you would never see in any other run. Even if it wouldn't be necessary faster than a legit run with the duplicate glitch, it would be much more entertaining because of the much higher variety. If using the SRAM file for NG+, I agree that it would be much better to use a legit one without cheats to get all the items and level ups in it, even if it wouldn't be provable in the end. Inichi's one is legit with a movie shown how it's done, but the downside is, it doesn't have every single double and tripple tech, and not every item. If you want a provable legit SRAM with all items and techs, you can always use the one I got at the end of my last 100% CT run before the final Lavos fight. The movie is available in the ZSNES section for verification, and since SRAM files are universal, you can load it just fine in Snes9x as well. The only downside in that SRAM is that I didn't got Level 99 (but close to 60), but most of the stats are pretty maxed out anyway, so it wouldn't really slow down the run. Of course the NG+ SRAM I used in my first CT TASes is legit too, but unfortunately not provable. So yeah, we have to weigh what is more important, a legit run that presents the duplicate glitch the first time ever, or a more entertaining run with the NG+ file. I would probably favour the latter thinking about that now, but only if every tech gets used at least once despite possible speed trade-offs.
See my perfect 100% movie-walkthroughs of the best RPG games on http://www.freewebs.com/saturnsmovies/index.htm Current TAS project (with new videos): Super Metroid Redesign, any% speedrun
BigBoct
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Posts: 1692
Location: Tiffin/Republic, OH
Okay, I'm working on my verification movie now, just about to head back to 1000 AD from 600 AD. I plan to get everyone to around level 60 (which was sufficient for Crono and Marle to take Lavos down on their own with) and then max everyone out by using the duplication glitch on tabs, if I can manage to reproduce it; it sounds complicated. If I can't, I'll just NG+ a few times to get enough tabs.
Previous Name: boct1584
Joined: 6/8/2005
Posts: 236
Location: Madison, Wisconsin
I really enjoy watching older versions of movies just to see what was skipped - A Boy and His Blob is a great example (just watch the earliest submission, then the latest). I openly welcome a "completion" run.
Joined: 11/11/2007
Posts: 242
Location: the 1950s
How about a run where you beat lavos right when you get to the End of time?
Currently working on: -Possibly the Wily Tower (Mega Man the Wily Wars)
Player (209)
Joined: 2/18/2005
Posts: 1451
kchrules wrote:
How about a run where you beat lavos right when you get to the End of time?
Not possible without NewGame+, as there is no way to survive his fatal attacks without status protective equipment and the GreenDream, both of which are only available from Fiona's Quest on.
See my perfect 100% movie-walkthroughs of the best RPG games on http://www.freewebs.com/saturnsmovies/index.htm Current TAS project (with new videos): Super Metroid Redesign, any% speedrun
Joined: 6/2/2007
Posts: 55
I think it would also be incredibly boring as the attacks would be doing next to nothing at that point, even if it were possible to manipulate all misses
Player (209)
Joined: 2/18/2005
Posts: 1451
The attack level would actually be pretty decent with 99 Power and Magic stats. The problem alongside the missing equipment is the low HP of your characters and the lack of advanced techniques due to no possibility to get enough tech points for them in a fast enough time.
See my perfect 100% movie-walkthroughs of the best RPG games on http://www.freewebs.com/saturnsmovies/index.htm Current TAS project (with new videos): Super Metroid Redesign, any% speedrun
Player (48)
Joined: 3/11/2007
Posts: 94
Location: Japan
I noticed Geiger's Snes9x Debugger allows you to reset on any timing, even between a frame. So, with a help of Geiger's Snes9x, I just made a demo movie making full use of the data corruption. The completion time is roughly 3 minutes, 41 seconds. Here is a download link to the movie. http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?dingh1nnuyz For viewers, I recommend you skip from start to 2:00 because that part is nothing special. The best part of the run is probably from 3:15 to 3:30: Marle betrays Crono, but he soon revenges himself on her in the best way. Note: Geiger's Snes9x lacks the re-recording function, so no smv file from beginning to end exists. To make the movie, I used the following method: First, using Snes9x 1.43, I recorded a movie to the point where I needed to corrupt a save file. Second, I made a savestate there and loaded it on Geiger's Snes9X. Third, I set a breakpoint on the needed timing, made a savestate there, and loaded it on Snes9x 1.43. Finally, I started a new recording from there. I needed to corrupt save data three times. Thus, four smv files were made. They were combined in making the avi. Here is a download link to a zip file that includes those four smvs: http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?ehmywbm0wtf For the record, the total re-recording count is 811. Also, for the above reason, there is no way to confirm the validity of the movie, but I don't care. The reason is this is just a demo movie to show the further possibility of Chrono Trigger TAS. Hopefully this movie will work as a good reference when a new re-recording Snes9x that enables the reset between a frame comes out in the future. I hope you enjoy the run. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Here is an explanation of the movie. About data corruption -Chrono Trigger uses one byte for each X-Y position. If you reset on the timing that only one byte is overwritten, you can jump to a different position. I used this feature twice: 1)Overwrites (1F, 3E), south of Zenan Bridge with (4A, 50), eastern end of Guardia continent and jump to (4A, 3E), west of Melchior's Hut. 2)Overwrites (72, 1E), north western part of Medina continent with (23, 26), south of Guardia Forest and jump to (23, 1E), north of Guardia Forest. -Chrono Trigger uses two bites for location. If you reset on the timing that only one byte is overwritten, you can jump to a different location. I used this feature once: 1) Overwrites (1D, 00), Prison Supervisor's Office with (F0, 01), Present Overworld and jump to (F0, 00), the Nu Ending. Detailed commentary on the movie -Give Crono his default name because I found one character name would be slightly slower in the end. The same goes for Marle and Lucca, too. -Pick up Marle at Leene's Square. Without her, the game will freeze in Imp's house. -Save the game on a save file 2 at the south of Guardia Forest, (23, 26). -Save the game on a save file 1 at the south of Zenan Bridge, (1F, 3E). -Save the game on the save file 1 at the eastern end of Guardia continent (4A, 50) and reset on the timing only X position is overwritten. As stated avove, this is done on Geiger's Snes9x. The same goes for the other two as well. -Load the save file 1. Now Crono is at the west of Melchior's Hut, (4A, 3E). -Enter Imp's house. The storyline counter is incremented to the same value as you first reached Medina village, which allows you to freely explore Guardia Castle. -Save the game on the save file 1 at the north western part of Medina continent, (72, 1E). -Load the save file 2. -Save the game on the file 1 and reset on the timing only x position is overwritten. -Load the save file 1. Now Crono is at the north of Guardia Forest, (23, 1E). -Enter Guardia Castle. Since the storyline counter is enough, no one halts them. -Go to the Prison Tower. The Chancellor tries to take Crono to the jail because the flag is not set yet. The plot is, however, already at Medina Village, so only the knocked-out supervisor and Crono appear in the office. You can move him as usual. -Save the game on the save file 1 at the near save point (1D, 00). -Load the save file 2. -Save the game on the file 1 and reset on the timing only one location address is overwritten. -Load the save file 1 (Movie End). -Nu Ending. -The End.
Skilled player (1431)
Joined: 7/15/2007
Posts: 1468
Location: Sweden
inichi wrote:
-Save the game on the save file 1 at the near save point (1D, 00). -Load the save file 2. -Save the game on the file 1 and reset on the timing only one location address is overwritten. -Load the save file 1 (Movie End). -Nu Ending. -The End.
What is it more specifically that happens here, and why do you have to go to the castle and all that before it? Oh, and... odd movie. Cool that reseting can be so abused when manipulated like this, I wonder what could be done with other games where you normally can't corrupt savefiles since the game saves on one frame...
Agare Bagare Kopparslagare
Joined: 4/2/2008
Posts: 103
Location: The Netherlands
Hehe, that was mad. I am a bit worried that timing inaccuracies are coming into play here though (I'm hopeful that we'll see a version of bsnes with movie playback someday soon; savestate support is the major hurdle for rerecording and without it movie playback has little priority).
Player (120)
Joined: 2/11/2007
Posts: 1522
Wow, amazing! I think this ought to be linked from the publication...
I make a comic with no image files and you should read it. While there is a lower class, I am in it, and while there is a criminal element I am of it, and while there is a soul in prison, I am not free. -Eugene Debs
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Joined: 11/27/2004
Posts: 688
Location: WA State, USA
Cpadolf wrote:
What is it more specifically that happens here, and why do you have to go to the castle and all that before it?
inichi wrote:
-Chrono Trigger uses two bites for location. If you reset on the timing that only one byte is overwritten, you can jump to a different location. I used this feature once: 1) Overwrites (1D, 00), Prison Supervisor's Office with (F0, 01), Present Overworld and jump to (F0, 00), the Nu Ending.
Nach wrote:
I also used to wake up every morning, open my curtains, and see the twin towers. And then one day, wasn't able to anymore, I'll never forget that.
Post subject: Re: SNES "glitched any%" Chrono Trigger (USA) in 03:41
gocha
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Emulator Coder, Former player
Joined: 6/21/2006
Posts: 401
Location: Japan, Nagoya
What the... They really did nothing special, but the game ends now :o
I am usually available on Discord server or Twitter.
Joined: 11/17/2005
Posts: 278
Location: Massachusetts, USA
I knew this would work. =) But what I didn't think of was using Geiger's version. I never realized that I already had an emulator that could reset on any instruction. As always, I'm impressed.
Joined: 3/11/2008
Posts: 583
Location: USA
If only there were a save point in Crono's house so we would be reaching a little closer to our then-hyperbole. :D Nicely done.
Player (48)
Joined: 3/11/2007
Posts: 94
Location: Japan
Thank you for your comments! I have managed to improve the last one by 16 seconds due to the route change. avi smvs (Total re-recording count: 990) I'd highly recommend you skip the first 2 minutes and 45 seconds because that part is almost the same with the previous one. Again, note that there is no way to verify the validity of the movie on account of the way it was made. Brief explanation: The idea is the same with the previous run, that is, directly jump to the Nu Ending by overwritting only the first location address. This time, however, I use Zenan Bridge, (20, 00), instead of Prison Supervisor's Office for that purpose. No save points are on Zenan Bridge. So, in advance, I save at the End of Time and corrupts the data on the timing that a savepoint flag is not overwritten. With the flag is on, the game considers as you are on a savepoint wherever you are, which allows you to save anywhere, including Zenan Bridge. Also, The End of Time save point doesn't work to get right to the Ending because its second location byte is the same with the Present Overworld one. There might be a further faster route, but I couldn't come up with the better one. I hope you enjoy the run.
Cpadolf wrote:
What is it more specifically that happens here,
Prison Supervisor Office's location bytes can be represented as (1D, 00); Present Overworld (F0, 01); Nu Ending (F0, 00). Note that the office's second byte has the same value as the Ending; the overworld's first byte the Ending. So if you save to a file whose location is the office in the overworld and reset on the timing only the first byte is overwritten, you can get right to the Ending.
and why do you have to go to the castle?
As I stated above, it was required to use that save point to jump to the Ending, though it was proved to be slower.
and all that before it?
To advance the story. Unless the plot advances enough, you get stopped at the entrance of the castle. Entering Imp's house is the fastest way to move on the story line enough to go deep into the castle.
Sir_VG
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Joined: 10/9/2004
Posts: 1911
Location: Floating Tower
Thanks for the AVI. That's just...bizarre. And I thought the published run was strange enough...
Taking over the world, one game at a time. Currently TASing: Nothing
Joined: 7/28/2005
Posts: 339
Amazing technical accomplishment, but honestly less satisfying than the published TAS.