Woo, more references:
Rafting over Whirlpools (Failed): http://www.speedrunguild.com/stuff/Zelda-OoA_RaftOverWhirlpools.vbm
Jumping while being sucked into a Whirlpool on a Raft (Failed): http://www.speedrunguild.com/stuff/Zelda-OoA_WhirlpoolRaftJump.vbm
I have been trying different stuff with whirlpools. For the second video, while I was making the first video I noticed that the Raft disappeared before Link got sucked in, and he was standing in midair for a frame or two, so I tried to exploit that by jumping on the free frame. No luck. But I KNOW there is something you can do odd with the whirlpools.. I CAN JUST FEEL IT. :( I know it's probably useless for the run, posting all these failures, but referencing it here will save other people testing it later. :P
Tompa wrote:
Floating over pits, the pit glitch!
LOL. Sorry about that, I always refer to that glitch as Pit Walking (which is actually what it is. :P), so I got confused.
Tompa wrote:
If you float in the air while lifting a block. Is that really impossible?
Yep, it's impossible. What I tested before works the same way as pit walking.
Tompa wrote:
Anyway, while talking about Moosh, is it faster to fly instead of walking...?
I haven't tested it, but I am pretty sure it's the same speed as normal walking.
Tompa wrote:
Nice. I actually made route maps last night for half the levels, but you got a few things I missed. Though, you didn't write a route for OoA Lvl1 (Edit: I just noticed you did that in a post)! I think it's obvious enough, just SQ when you have the Power Ring. Links to the maps, if you want to analyze them:
Level 1: http://www.speedrunguild.com/stuff/maps/SpiritsGrave_Route-EA.gif
Level 2: http://www.speedrunguild.com/stuff/maps/WingDungeon_Route-EA.gif
Level 5: http://www.speedrunguild.com/stuff/maps/CrownDungeon_Route-EA.gif
Level 8: http://www.speedrunguild.com/stuff/maps/AncientTomb_Route-EA.gif
Level 2 skips two keys and Level 5 skips one key. Note that in Level 2 I screwed up the route: when going to activating the rail gate, it should be the same as I drew coming back from the rail gate. Also in Level 5 I douched up the route between the first and second keys: you can just take the first ladder to get to the key, the same as coming back from it. By the way, Tompa, I'm pretty sure that bit is faster to not SQ after the second key. Every SQ costs about 300 frames, and the distance is almost exactly the same. Later in the level, when you get the boss key, it may be worth SQ'ing, but I wasn't sure how much time it would take, so I just drew the conventional route (upon checking it over, I'm actually sure it would be beneficial to just SQ at the boss key). Level 8 is same as normal... just TAS it up.
Tompa wrote:
Nice. I saw where you noted I should take the Noble Sword upgrade: I'm also considering taking the Bomb, Seed and Ring Box upgrades, to eliminate some limitations. But aside of the Ring Box, I can always manipulate to eliminate the limitations, so I dunno how much time it would save.
dezbeast wrote:
I doubt there's a way to keep from falling,
True, but there are places that, if you remove a rock, you can get to bits early and skip other stuff, and falling into the pit with a removed rock would be faster than not skipping. (Example: Getting into Cheval's Grave by skipping Moosh.)
Actually, it seems most items cannot be used over pits. In Jabu-Jabu's Belly, I tried using the switch hook to skip some stuff by pit walking and doing the long switch hook pit early, but it did not work. I'm going to try all the items over pits to see what works and what does not.
Joined: 2/28/2006
Posts: 2275
Location: Milky Way -> Earth -> Brazil
uh... which animal friend will you choose? Or isn't that important at all?
I always choose Dimitri, because I can still get through the central part of the map without him.
"Genuine self-esteem, however, consists not of causeless feelings, but of certain knowledge about yourself.
It rests on the conviction that you — by your choices, effort and actions — have made yourself into the
kind of person able to deal with reality. It is the conviction — based on the evidence of your own volitional
functioning — that you are fundamentally able to succeed in life and, therefore, are deserving of that success."
- Onkar Ghate
Bisqwit wrote:
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1942
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
Oh, haha, how stupid I was in dungeon 2:D. You don't need the first key, lol...
Nice dungeon maps alert! I was wondering in dungeon 1... With the moving platform and the two buttons. Can actually jump down and start pitwalking there?:O.
I must say that your way in dungeon 5 wasn't the best one really. And what do you mean by skipping a key...? There's no place you can skip a key:O? Or which key lock did you mean really...? Beacuse in your route you passes 5 key locks, and collect 4 keys, huh?
And I can't see how it would be faster to go to ladder a in the beginning instead of shooting with the seed shooter on the switch and take ladder b at once, hmm... I haven't timed the two routes, but I can honestly not understand how your way could be faster.
You also got a different way in dungeon 8. I'm shooting on the switch instead of pressing the button and walk around the stairs. Guess your way is faster this time:). But you have stolen the rest of the route, haha ;D.
I shall look up the bombs to see if you really need to take the bombu upgrade. I think it's better to manipulate an enemy to drop, or just lift from a bush or similar... And the rings, you will swim quite a lot during the game, isn't the swimmer ring a good idea then?
EDIT: pirate_sephiroth, I don't know which animal E_alert will get for his run, as he can chose much easier which one he shall take. And I think dimitri is the fastest one at the carpenters.
EDIT AGAIN: Ok, I'm on with the bomb routes for Ages. If you look at my testrun, a Crescent Island, I get a bomb refill under the rock without losing any time. Try to do that as well and you will have 9 bombs after that. (And don't care about the bomb I laid in the cave, haha, didn't mean to...). Then you will have 9 bombs in the beginning of dungeon 3. ANd now it's time for my lesson...
Ok, in dungeon 3. I belive it is faster to throw a bomb at the rabbits instead of using a bomb, and the moldorm can be killed with one bomb only. You will then have 4 bombs after the moldorm, 3 after the switch, 2 after bombing the block, don't take the bomb refill that I do. Instead manipulate the statues to drop bombs for you. I don't think you will need the bomb refill, it wont save you time...
Got a break again, so it's time to continue with the bombs:). At the statues in dungeon 3. Drop one bomb so you will kill the statue closest to the switch at one, make him drop a bomb refill. Then you will have 5 bombs, and then you need like 2 or 1 bombs for the rest three. I guess it's quite hard to manipulate them to die in one bomb. Make them drop 2 refills so you will have 10 bombs left. Throw a bomb at the last tile as I did, you will have 9 left.
In dungeon 4 you need one bomb to get the switch hook, you will have 8 left.
Dungeon 6: One bomb in the beginning and I will continue with the rest later.. Got maths now;D-.
LAST EDIT: You need to use 6 more bombs in the dungeon, this mean you will have two left.
In dungeon 7, with the two jars you have to use the switch on to get to the other side, manipulate bomb refill here. Or els from some enemies. 6 left.
To dungeon 8, 1 bomb. You can manipulate a bomb drop from the jars in here too. 9 bombs left.
In dungeon 8: 8 bombs are needed throught the dungeon and 3 bombs on the boss. This mean you need a refill somewhere in the dungeon. I say the boss, this wont lose time.
And the overworld routes for Seasons is done:
http://files.filefront.com/Overworld_Routes_Seasonstxt/;6192417;;/fileinfo.html
Those weren't too good, as there wasn't much to say. My run and Ego Buffs
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1942
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
Very nice! Very good damage boosting really. And perfect enemy manipulating, I hate that part:).
I was wondering... If you are damage boosting a lot during the game, will it be worth taking a heart container later? The best place taking one would be in dungeon 3. Guess you can easily manipulate some heart drops whenever you need...
Looking forward for the next part!
EDIT: Was checking my run, and you are 1½ minute faster than I was=P. I thought it that your run would be even faster, hmm. As you use S&Q and pit walking... Oh well.
When I'm looking on my run I see that I can improve with more than I though... Going to make an improvement next year I think..
Joined: 3/10/2006
Posts: 347
Location: Maryland, United States
I was thinking the same about whether or not I should. It's too bad this game doesn't force you to get containers like Link's Awakening does, ha ha. I'm going to have to comb through the whole game to see all the places where taking more than 3 hearts of damage would save time. If time saved adds up to more than the time it takes to get it from level 3 then I'll go ahead and get it.
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1942
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
In dungeon 5 you have to jump past the fire, and this costs 1½ heart anyway. Making double hits on Onox, by hitting Din too, cost 1 heart. Those are the places I know at the moment that will cost more, or, one heart.
When you get to dungeon 2, try to manipulate a bomb drop in the bush so you will have 10 in the dungeon. You can easily fill up your bombs later in the dungeon.
EDIT: And about the last boss, when he uses Din as a shield, if you charge your sword you can jump over him and release it without hitting Din, and as you need the Cape later anyway you won't lose anytime of it, you won't need to switch to the rod just:).
I've now completed level 1 too.
Here's the WIP:http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/2761/OoATAS.vbm
A couple of rooms don't have optimal enemy setups, but I was having to manipulate multiple rooms at once, so getting all of them to be optimal was difficult(seemed impossible to me)
Nice dungeon maps alert! I was wondering in dungeon 1... With the moving platform and the two buttons. Can actually jump down and start pitwalking there?:O.
Yes, you can jump down and start pit walking but you can't get onto the center from the pit for some reason, so I had to press the other switch then pit walk onto the moving platform.
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1942
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
Haven't checked all yet... But did someone try if it was faster to slash with your sword just after you have dug ...?
You should have read my Ages Overworld Route Guide, Vespa. Because, you should start speaking to the Maku tree one pixel to the left, so the Ember Seeds will fall to the right. And to go right instead of down is faster.
Oh, so you have to make the moving platform appear anyway...
Anyway, nice. But it just wasn't perfect at the maku tree...
Oops, I haven't checked the forum in awhile so I didn't see your overworld route. If it saves a lot of time to go right I'll probably redo my run from there.
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1942
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
Will be a pain for you I presume:). When you still are remaking it all from there, then you can try to manipulate the enemies even more. Guess it's gonna take a while, and I hope you have the patience for it:D. I can honestly say that I haven't got that...
I quickly(but carefully) used your overworld route and got to the gate to level 1 over 300 frames faster. Guess I'm going to have to redo level 1 :(. Oh well. I also found a way to pit glitch slightly faster, so I'll be able to improve the run some more.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=He4ZI8qHWrI Yay, proper library book skip in AVI format. :P
VBM of it: http://www.speedrunguild.com/stuff/Zelda-OoA_LibrarySkip.vbm (I seriously need to stop using my site for hosting this kind of thing.)
I have a question: How do you manipulate item drops and enemy behaviour? I have figured out how to manipulate enemy location (it's decided on the frame you enter the room), but the other two baffle me...
Also, Tompa, do you use IRC or IM? lol
Tompa wrote:
Nice dungeon maps alert! I was wondering in dungeon 1... With the moving platform and the two buttons. Can actually jump down and start pitwalking there?:O.
Until I read Vespa's post.. I didn't even know. I just drew a line over the general places you go to. This philosophy should be applied to all my maps, like when it looks like I say to activate a switch, I might mean to hit it from afar or something. I only really covered the basics, mainly out of laziness. :/
Tompa wrote:
I must say that your way in dungeon 5 wasn't the best one really. And what do you mean by skipping a key...? There's no place you can skip a key:O? Or which key lock did you mean really...? Beacuse in your route you passes 5 key locks, and collect 4 keys, huh?
Uh... whoops. Yeah, get the key I skipped. I didn't actually test the routes properly, I just put the maps together and drew up the routes based only on that.
Tompa wrote:
And I can't see how it would be faster to go to ladder a in the beginning instead of shooting with the seed shooter on the switch and take ladder b at once, hmm... I haven't timed the two routes, but I can honestly not understand how your way could be faster.
It's not. That's what I said I screwed up with. Going to Ladder B is faster, I did not notice until after I uploaded it.
Tompa wrote:
I shall look up the bombs to see if you really need to take the bombu upgrade. I think it's better to manipulate an enemy to drop, or just lift from a bush or similar... And the rings, you will swim quite a lot during the game, isn't the swimmer ring a good idea then?
[snip]
Thanks for researching the bombs. I guess I will just not get the upgrade and manipulate where needed. About the swimmer's ring... meh. I can get it later in the run if I really need it that badly, but I don't need to use a secret to actually get it. I'll probably get the ring box upgrade so I can carry a power ring and also another ring that I will need. Also, about swimming in general, can you test how many frames is optimal to hold in a direction with the mermaid suit? Like, hold right for 10 frames, release for one, etc. one frame on and one frame off does not work.
Tompa wrote:
will it be worth taking a heart container later? The best place taking one would be in dungeon 3. Guess you can easily manipulate some heart drops whenever you need...
I know you weren't talking to me, but do Heart Pieces refill your health? Getting those would probably be more convenient than Heart Containers. But then, it's still probably faster to just manipulate heart drops from enemies you kill anyway, like you said. :/
pirate_sephiroth wrote:
uh... which animal friend will you choose?
Personally, I'm not sure yet... I thought Moosh, but I decided I am going to test it before doing any more of the TAS.
Vespa wrote:
Yes, you can jump down and start pit walking but you can't get onto the center from the pit for some reason, so I had to press the other switch then pit walk onto the moving platform.
Bah, this sucks. I guess I will keep it in mind for when i get up to this place. Too bad we can't use the conventional route, eh.
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1942
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
I don't know about luck manipulation so much, not at all really:).
I'm on TASvideos IRC channel quite often now more. Besides that I'm using MSN, which I have added you on now, if you are using it at all Lol...
You can get the upgraded ring box after level two, in Mayor Plen's House. And you shall use the pass at the same time as the level 2 sword, which will be after dungeon 4. Then you can wear 3 rings. So you shall put one more that may save some time. Don't know which one is best at the moment but... I can research some with that as well.
Hmm, I'm actually quite bad of those kinds of testing, I haven't cared to learn about the "TAS "rules" " about frames and so. So I don't think I'm the right person to test about swimming, sorry.'
Yepp, the heart containers will fill up your hearts. I was thinking... If you are using the Power Ring lvl 3, you can hardly do any damage boosting... It will kill you at once:).
You shall use Dimitri instead of Moosh in your pass. It has to be faster at the carpenters using him. Or...?
Joined: 3/10/2006
Posts: 347
Location: Maryland, United States
e_alert wrote:
I have a question: How do you manipulate item drops and enemy behaviour? I have figured out how to manipulate enemy location (it's decided on the frame you enter the room), but the other two baffle me...
Enemy location is not always decided on the frame you enter the room. If there are no enemies in the previous room, you could wait a thousand frames and it will still be exactly the same when you enter the next room. Here are all the things I discovered about enemy manipulation in Seasons, and it's most likely the same way in Ages. The only time delaying frames works, is if you delay them in the same area where there is an enemy setup, then the next enemy setup will change. Also the number of times you slash the sword before you get to the room with enemies changes the enemy setup. Slashing and hitting enemies also gives a different setup than just slashing.
Enemy behavior can be manipulated in the same room, they do different things depending on how many times you slash your sword, and also where you walk. You have to experiment.
Item drops are also determined by how many times you slash. Delaying frames before killing enemies also works in getting the desired drops, but you usually have to delay a lot. Another thing I noticed about the item drops in Seasons is in order to get a 5 rupee drop, you have to make the last enemy drop an item, be it a heart or 1 rupee.
Tompa, I was looking over your overworld route and I noticed you said to pit glitch to get the chart from Tingle. Well the hole setup there is similar to the room in level 1 with the two switches and the moving platform. You can't get onto to the ground from the pit in both cases. I also tried pit walking down to the switch to make the bridge appear but you can't get down there for the same reason.
Diagram:
*=holes
0=solid block
0**
***
**0
If you're pit walking down, the solid block prevents you from getting to the holes beneath it.
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1942
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
Oh... But you can still pit glitch and slash the switch with the sword, not?
That mean you can still take that shortcut, even if it makes it a little slower:).
Joined: 5/23/2006
Posts: 361
Location: Washington, United States
Tompa wrote:
You can get the upgraded ring box after level two, in Mayor Plen's House. And you shall use the pass at the same time as the level 2 sword, which will be after dungeon 4. Then you can wear 3 rings. So you shall put one more that may save some time. Don't know which one is best at the moment but... I can research some with that as well.
[...]
Yepp, the heart containers will fill up your hearts. I was thinking... If you are using the Power Ring lvl 3, you can hardly do any damage boosting... It will kill you at once:).
I took a look at all the available rings, and here are the ones you might consider using:
-Power Ring lvl3 (increase in power, obviously)
-Red Ring (if you need to damage boost)
-Pegasus Ring (lets the seeds last longer)
-Swimmer's Ring (might be useful for the underwater dungeons and the overworld swimming)
-Bomber's Ring (lets you set two bombs, only useful for a couple of bosses/enemies vulnerable to bombs)
-Whimsical Ring (only useful if the critical hits work on bosses, which is probably not the case)
Most of the other rings are either useless (or semi-useless) for this TAS, or are weaker versions. I think the three you should choose if you take the 3-slot ring box are the power ring, the pegasus ring, and the swimmer's ring.
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1942
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
Yeah, I agree with those three rings, Stef.
Can you please check if it is faster to slash with the sword after you have dug? :) I think it is some frames faster.
Oh... But you can still pit glitch and slash the switch with the sword, not?
Nope, the diagram was a section of the lower path that you can't get past because of the solid blocks. So you can't get past there either way.
Anyways, the new run has been going smoothly. So far, I've been able to manipulate perfectly. I also got a much better setup in the room with the ghost(he started in the lower left corner). I'll be done the level pretty soon at this pace.
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1942
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
Vespa wrote:
Oh... But you can still pit glitch and slash the switch with the sword, not?
Nope, the diagram was a section of the lower path that you can't get past because of the solid blocks. So you can't get past there either way.
Anyways, the new run has been going smoothly. So far, I've been able to manipulate perfectly. I also got a much better setup in the room with the ghost(he started in the lower left corner). I'll be done the level pretty soon at this pace.
Oh that sucks!! Must be able somehow:(. Can you show me your best attempt?
Good that your run is going on nicely! You didn't test the thing with the shovel either, did you?
You didn't test the thing with the shovel either, did you?
I keep forgetting! I'll test it now, but I doubt it will save enough time for me to redo my run. I'll be sure to do it in the future.
Edit: Yup, It's 1 frame faster to slash your sword after digging. How did you manage to find that out? :D
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1942
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
Too bad:(. Would have been nice...
Haha, I knew it;D. I was using my well trained real time eye (Or something).
EDIT: Was looking through your tingletest again, trying to find a way to get it to work anyway:).
What if you left at frame 540 and go down after that...?
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1942
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
What if... if... :D. You have got the toss ring and throw a bomb to the switch, haha.
Yeah... I know you can't get in the right position so the bomb will get to the switch, but still. I give up:(. Thanks for trying Vespa.
