Screenshots submitted by users are often bad quality.
You really do know how to hurt someone's feelings.
Bisqwit wrote:
Oops. I did not mean to crush your idea. Being quite pessimistic at times, I just told why your idea cannot be implemented in its most naïve form. That doesn't mean it cannot be refined and utilized.
Bisqwit wrote:
With no offense, I don't trust Maza is careful enough to do a good job, considering all the site's guidelines regarding publications.
Also, from your words, your attitude seems to be that of discouraging those who are offering to help your site. Whether your attitude really is that is unknown, but it seems to be that way.
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
FractalFusion wrote:
Also, from your words, your attitude seems to be that of discouraging those who are offering to help your site. Whether your attitude really is that is unknown, but it seems to be that way.
Bisqwit does a lot to make sure people can contribute. Heck, he coded most of the site from the ground up.
What we don't need however is subpar help, and like most programmers, Bisqwit is somewhat of a perfectionist.
If we added 20 encoders that just produced grainy videos, it wouldn't really help anybody. And we have had several people encode AVIs for us, some of which we have published, however this is after screening, not every video submitted by people who have submitted before is acceptable.
Bisqwit made me recode my initial video 4 times before he accepted it. And even today he still gets on my case from time to time. I even had to edit VBA myself to meet our standards.
We all want more help, but not everyone is qualified, or sometimes their help is accepted, sometimes not. We have provided a wealth of information on this website to get the ball rolling a bit. But some people don't have what it takes, proficient computer knowledge is required, sometimes programming skills, and even then you may have to be bootstrapped off someone else for a while.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Well I'm sure 95% of the people here will agree this isn't SDA+Tools, so I can understand why there are standards. There really isn't an excuse to have a bad quality AVI when you aren't encoding from a VHS tape. Also when the quality of play is the most of important thing as long as you can tell what's going on. (How it is on SDA from my understanding.)
Well I'm sure 95% of the people here will agree this isn't SDA+Tools, so I can understand why there are standards. There really isn't an excuse to have a bad quality AVI when you aren't encoding from a VHS tape.
That, and my site was born from the will to provide a good quality AVI when everything I could find in the net was a bad quality WMV (of the particular movie that time, that is Morimoto's SMB3j). (Since those times, the quality requirements have went up as our tools and knowledge have improved; the AVI I published back then would not be acceptable today.)
Joined: 4/21/2004
Posts: 3517
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Said this before and will mention it again, use me. I got 100/100 connection; people would download at the speed of light from me and send me a installed windows program which encodes nes, snes, gens and even N64 runs and I'll get started.
Nitrogenesis wrote:
Guys I come from the DidyKnogRacist communite, and you are all wrong, tihs is the run of the mileniun and everyone who says otherwise dosnt know any bater! I found this run vary ease to masturbate too!!!! Don't fuck with me, I know this game so that mean I'm always right!StupedfackincommunityTASVideoz!!!!!!
Arc wrote:
I enjoyed this movie in which hands firmly gripping a shaft lead to balls deep in multiple holes.
natt wrote:
I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but as a point of fact C# is literally the first goddamn thing on that fucking page you linked did you even fucking read it
Cooljay wrote:
Mayor Haggar and Cody are such nice people for the community. Metro City's hospitals reached an all time new record of incoming patients due to their great efforts :P
It just isn't a question of CPU power or network cable power; it's a question of manpower :P
To contribute, you'd need to learn and do. There is no "windows program" which does everything while you just watch. As unfortunate as it is.
If someone developed one... but there's still much manual information that needs to be entered a way or another, such as the movie length, the placement and duration of subtitles, the content thereof (both of which depend entirely on the movie content), and optimal compression settings (mainly the bitrate) for the particular movie. Often it needs partial or whole redoing for reason or another.
And, as we witness, there's no pressing shortage on encoders as much as there is for publishers.
Joined: 5/27/2005
Posts: 465
Location: Turku, Finland
Thanks for all of your support, I really appriciate it. But about me being a publisher, I think I need to quote Stan Lee: "With great power comes great responsibility". I'd be really honoured to be publisher, but I'm not sure if I could handle it properly. I have no idea how to actually publish a run (the encoding and seeding I can do). So unless one of the publishers would be willing to teach me, I'd have no chance at all in publishing a run.
Though, don't take this as if I'm not interested a bit, because I am. If Bisqwit is really willing to give me a chance, I sure would think about it seriously. (That is if I get some publishing training ;). )
And once more, thank you all for the positive feedback. It really cheeres one's day to hear such feedback from so many people.
There is, of course HowTo: Make an AVI out of a FCM, which is much more advanced than the old one I used months ao to try to make a movie out of Shinobi.
Hell, even I could likely do it on my (now, inactive...) other PC.
What is half-publisher? If it consists of linking torrents of someone's encode, adding a compressed screenshot, and typing up a nice description, then I might do well with that role. If it also involves checking AVI's for quality, then....probably not so much my field of expertise.
(And, since Maza is a publisher now, I guess it's a moot point.)
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
Perhaps the site should be distributing a simple encoding 'kit' that comes as a snapshot containing everything you need to encode from the codecs to subtitles and basic logo support? That would be more friendly then the wiki I think.
While the issue doesn't seem to be so much about lack of computing power, I still think that's an excellent idea. It would certainly make it a lot easier for people to donate computing power to the cause (ie. encoding movies).
Of course this kind of kit would most probably be feasible only for linux (as windows lacks most if not all the standard tools which would make this so easy in linux), but I don't think that matters. Many of the contributors probably use linux, and I would certainly donate computing power to this on my linux box if such an easy-to-use kit existed.
Of course optimal encoding parameters depend on the game, but the kit could come with some presets for each game console (as optimal parameters are probably very console dependant), and the user could try them before trying to fine-tune by hand. For example, the user could tell the encoding system to use "preset 1", and the system would then look what type of movie is being encoded (nes, snes, n64...) and choose the first preset for that console. After the encoding is done the user could watch the result, and if it looks like crap, he could start over with preset 2 and so on. Only if no preset gives a good result, additional manual fine-tuning could be performed.
Naturally it would require someone to make such a kit, which I don't see happening anytime soon. :(
if would be easy if one could use fixed settings for any given emulator, because only scripts would be needed, but I guess than encoding top-notch videos requires human skills too. like, trial & error to get the best result : only someone with enough experience could find the best parameters, and I'm afraid it varies to each movie...
if it's not, feel free to correct me and please submit any (emulator wise)general encoding script :)
I never sleep, 'cause sleep is the cousin of death - NAS
That's what I have tried to do with the Linux AVI making instruction pages... I have submitted scripts and emulator patches.
My patches make the work quite easy for me.
1a. I verify the relevant RUNxxx script (where xxx depends on emulator) and check that the audio encoding settings are sufficient for this particular game and console, and that there's no left-over cruft from some test movie project that I occassionally do.
1b. I run the emulator using the RUNxxx script.
2a. Occassionally (but not always), I verify the produced test0.avi file once while the emulator runs, and if there's something unexpected, for example the logo taking too long or missing entirely, I'll stop the emulator, edit the emulator source code, recompile it with changed settings, and go back to step 1b.
2b. I stop the emulator when I see it fit. (When the movie has finished, and the ending has finished, and at least one loop of the last song of the ending has been heard.)
3. I move the produced test0.avi to the directory where I want to work with it. That is usually of form /home/bisqwit/nes/xgetimage/consolename-gamename/ .
4. I bootstrap the directory by copying the nesvideos.cfg file from some previous publication's dir that codec-workwise resembled the new one.
5a. I backup the old subtitle file.
5b. I run GENSUB to produce a new subtitle file.
5c. I edit the new subtitle file to adjust timings, and fill in the game name and author name.
6a. I verify the KOODAUS-H script, which is my h264 variant of the encoding script, and I check that it starts the encoding from pass 1. Save if necessary.
6b. Then I launch the KOODAUS-H script, and it runs.
7a. Occassionally, I check the result.
7b. If the video quality or subtitle positioning is unsatisfactory, I stop the KOODAUS-H script, adjust the bitrate in nesvideos.cfg, edit the KOODAUS-H script to not run the entire work (step 6 onward) again but start from pass N where N is a judged per case basis. Then I goto step 6b.
7c. If the movie is long enough and I find a suitable spot, I edit the subtitle file and copy the "this is a tool-assisted movie" blurb to that spot. If necessary, I interrupt the KOODAUS-H script and add at least one more pass so that the changes take effect.
8. Once done, the resulting AVI is waiting to be published.
See, that's easy.
My patches are highly tailored for my needs. The most striking example:
* My logo animation is stored as 360 tga files located at the /home/bisqwit/povray/nesvlogov5 directory. 360, multiplied by the number of different resolutions for which it is rendered. Currently, that is 5. The emulator reads these TGA files at the beginning of movie playback, and blends them into the AVI.
I offer copies of these scripts freely, but most users who receive them, end up having dozens of questions and spending hours troubleshooting them. It's works-for-me-ware.
seriously ?! maybe to you but...
it looks VERY human dependant, and is so personalized (count how many "I" are quoted) that it's scary. the point of a script is specifically to be a program that replaces as many human actions as possible, and I'm sorry to say that your example fails at it. I can't even list how many actions have no meaning to me (and I don't even quote the "I check..." whose criterias are nowhere near to be defined).
the day when someone with no encoding specialization can get all the material and launch the encode automatically seems very far from now. if a fully detailed tutorial had to be written, I can't imagine how long it'd be...
that's why I'd like to thank all the encoders who have the patience (and skills) to produce "good enough", ready to seed avi files.
I never sleep, 'cause sleep is the cousin of death - NAS
Well, there was some sarcasm hidden in that line...
But perhaps now you can see why I am not overly optimistic about a fully automated process emerging. I see each of the steps I did as more or less necessary. A few were caused by the process itself, so they're not strictly necessary. (Such as checking the consistency of the scripts involved.)
The point of my scripts is to avoid me having to remember and to retype complex commandlines. The KOODAUS-H script for example, launches mencoder with these options (copypasted from my Rockman 2 encoding which just finished):
mencoder test0.avi -oac copy -ovc x264 -x264encopts partitions=all:me=umh:qp_step=20:qp_max=45:pass=3:subq=7:direct_pred=auto:frameref=15:\
bframes=0:me_range=64:brdo:bime:mixed_refs:trellis=2:ratetol=60:nofast_pskip:bitrate=210 -sub /home/bisqwit/nes/xgetimage/rockman2/test0.sub -subfont-text-scale 3 -subcp UTF-8 -font '/opt/blackdown-jdk-1.4.1/jre/lib/fonts/LucidaSansRegular.ttf' -mc 0 -vf decimate=10:0:0:1 -o "result.avi" -aspect 4/3
But then again, the "easy" is quite subjective. For example, see the second entry at http://www.rinkworks.com/stupid/cs_calls.shtml
Edit: split the long mencoder line so as not to make the post text column too wide
Emulator Coder, Site Developer, Site Owner, Expert player
(3576)
Joined: 11/3/2004
Posts: 4754
Location: Tennessee
*disclaimer 1: a lot of my comments here are responses to posts in the harmony of dissonance split off thing. The issues brought up there were intended to go here
*disclaimer 2: I believe that the site has been getting better and better over time. My intent with bringing up complaints is because I want it to improve further. I hope that discussion will bring ideas and action to these issues
1) I agree there is favortism for some runs over others. Some argue that megaman games ARE or AREN'T getting preferential treatment but this sides steps the issue somewhat. The issue is that a run will get submitted and accepted and sit for long periods of time, while other runs are published much quicker. I think this is a problem. With limited resources, it is understandable that a hot new sonic improvment gets bumped to the top of the priority list but I think that more emphasis needs to be placed on older submissions.
Look at it from a potential new TASers standpoint. He submits a run and it is well received and accepted. Then it is published over a year later. That could turn off potential new TAS contributers. That is a loss to the site.
2) I agree with JXQ that the encoding pages I have read come off as condescending. I fully understand and agree with Bisqwit, that independent creative people are desired to fill the much needed encoding manpower. But this could be expressed in a more "inspiring others to learn" way rather than a "we don't really want you to help" kind of way.
In general, the site has this "if you don't already know, don't bother us" attitude". This could be improved.
3) The main issue here is a lack of manpower on the encoding & publishing side of thing, resulting in a bottleneck. I don't want to suggest that current publishers do more work due to the strain this would cause on them. This is their hobby, and at the current pace of good publication-worthy submission, current publishers would be quite busy just to break even.
I do agree with JXQ's points about "wasted effort". In light of the lack of manpower and increasing submission queue, seeing a run encoded by multiple publishers (oot, mario 120stars) brings up a little resentment. Again, this is their hobby. A better solution would be to have more manpower, and allow people to encode "for fun" and do as they please.
4) As of this post, both I and Maza have been granted publisher status. And already we have 2 runs published, one of which was the current oldest submission in queue. Perhaps this will be enough to at least keep pace with the current out put from our TASers.
5) The RESULTS I would like to see from this site is a submission queue of 10-15 submission, half of which are accepted and on route to being published. None of the accepted submissions are more than a few weeks old unless there is some encoding problem that arises specifically to that submission. The undecided ones will vary in age since some will require more debate and considerations.
I'd like to see all this happen without long term strain & demands on the publishers as this is all a hobby that we all do for fun.
I'd like to see solutions work towards this goal.
This flurry of runs coming off the queue is good work :)
Bisqwits encoding style seems very Linux oriented and I don't know how portable it would be. Is his method a good example to follow? What tools and process do the other encoders use?
Now I know what I consider is a fair amount about codecs, for instance I know the difference between and I-frame a B-frame, and a P-frame, but I dont about making a logo or subtitle file...
Would that subtitle just be the same as a .SRT file you find with foreign language movies? And you can just encode that into a video after the final pass?
Does that provide the black background to the subtitles too or is that seperate?
How about a recommendation on tools and methods for an animated logo? I know Bisqwit is fancy with his alpha blending but a simple stock animation that can be prepended to the video stream is fine. Do people just render an animation in something like Flash, convert it to AVI, and prepend?
These are the types of questions I am left with after viewing the Encoder guide.
As for publishing. The screenshot is taken from the emulator or movie file? For N64 the video settings when rendering the video are typically very different from when watching the movie. Should screenshots be taken at a high resolution and interpolated down?
This signature is much better than its previous version.
Joined: 7/28/2004
Posts: 135
Location: Finland Realms
About the "competing who encodes what" -issue, why not just create a standard intropart without mentioning who encoded it, besides that it's encoded by tasvideos.org? Sure it can be a small text on a corner of the intro, but not necessarily as visible as it is at the moment.
I'm not sure if I personally want that, but I thought I'd throw in an idea.
Just about everything I brought up when I made this thread has been addressed or is a non-issue at this point, only after a couple months. There are 18 runs in the workbench, with only two being very old (and they both have encoding/desync issues).
For as much as I complain about stuff, I definitely need to give praise where it is due. So, thank you to all responsible for the extra work involved in improving this aspect of the site. :)
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
I am trying to pull my own weight by encoding my own Shinobi II submission, but I need the intro boilerplate logo before proceeding further. I do not want to make my own. I like the bisqwit one just fine. Lossless avi would be best, but I'll take the 360 tga files if need be.
Better yet, make it available to everyone from the encoding page.
https://tasvideos.org/EncoderGuidelines
I am trying to pull my own weight by encoding my own Shinobi II submission, but I need the intro boilerplate logo before proceeding further. I do not want to make my own. I like the bisqwit one just fine. Lossless avi would be best, but I'll take the 360 tga files if need be.
Better yet, make it available to everyone from the encoding page.
https://tasvideos.org/EncoderGuidelines
Which resolution do you require?
https://files.tasvideos.org/bisqwit/bisqlogov5-256x240.zip -- Here's 256x240. Note that these images are partially transparent (they have alpha channel). It works best if it is blended together with the beginning of the animation. If you convert it into an AVI and append the game movie with the AVI, you'll probably get bad results because AVI does not know about the alpha channel. (Also, 6-second intro animations are not allowed here anyway unless the game starts running and being viewable before 2 seconds.)
