Joined: 11/18/2006
Posts: 2426
Location: Back where I belong
Let's see, I think I started this a week ago? Here's the first level done, and entrance to level 3 made, in 4:38, which is 252 frames or over 4 seconds faster than nfq's movie.
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/3199/Start%20Level%203%20%28-252%29.m64
PS. Thanks to all who voted for my GBA Silent Scope movie! I only joined this forum about one month ago and I'm proud to say I have an accepted run already:)
Joined: 11/18/2006
Posts: 2426
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evilchen wrote:
well nice wip , i just finished watching it.. does the 4 sec improvement come from better movement or a new trick/shortcut?
A lot of A, a little of B. The only new trick I've found was on the wall leading to the second key, everything else has come from frame by frame optimized motions.
Joined: 11/18/2006
Posts: 2426
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nfq wrote:
Two new places to use walljumps on level 3:
Walljump 5
Worked like a charm, saved me around 4.5 seconds.
nfq wrote:
Walljump 6: From the palm tree you can jump to the top of that stone thing and fall through it instead of pushing the button and waiting for it to go down.
I believe you did this manuever in your run, and I plan on duplicating it, unless you are referring to something else. SEE EDIT
nfq wrote:
I think it would be better to do level 5 before 4 so you can do a death warp on level 4 (saves a few seconds). If you do the death warp, you have to collect enough life forces on your way through the game (so that you can use the death warps on level 6).
Completing level 5 first would leave me without the use of the grenade launcher to use on the Mantis, and I'm pretty sure this would be bad. I know which death warp you're talking about (actually thought of it the first time I saw your run, and wondered why you hadn't taken advantage of it). I'm hoping the savepoint in the catacombs can be sidestepped in the same way the savepoint in level 3 right before the second key can be done. If so, it would save around 40 seconds at least I believe. If not, it would still save around 5 to 10. I'm not worried about collecting enough lifeforces, because there are two abundant sources I could utilize, the first one being the purple ones right before the deathwarp on level 4 (where all the swinging sandbags are), and the second is the ring of 4 purple lifeforces immediately before you get the 2nd (I think) key on level 6. Both would provide enough for an additional life as long as I collect close to as many as you did.
Right now I'm on level 3, about ready to make my jump on that large, lowering stone pillar that leads to the warp to the second key. Because of that wall jump, I'm around 7 to 8 seconds ahead and have replenished my tek arrows (I forgot there was a quiver of them in the little hut on the opposite end of the path to the 2nd key in the level.) I hope this all makes sense, and more importantly, that it all works like I imagine it to.
EDIT: Thanks to a new and improved technique with the lowering pillar I was able to regain any time I had lost getting the Tek arrows, plus some. With the 3rd level's second key stored away safely, I am currently 535 frames ahead (almost 9 seconds). Things are looking good :)
Completing level 5 first would leave me without the use of the grenade launcher to use on the Mantis, and I'm pretty sure this would be bad.
no, because you would take the grenade launcher which marshmallow took in the cave at the end of the level.
With the 3rd level's second key stored away safely, I am currently 535 frames ahead (almost 9 seconds). Things are looking good :)
i think 535 frames could mean 18 seconds. 9 seconds doesn't sound like much (if you consider how much my run sucked).
---
small time saver: when you climb a wall, if you jump when you're almost at the top you save around 20 frames because you don't have to wait for the climbing animation to finish.
Joined: 11/18/2006
Posts: 2426
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nfq wrote:
i think 535 frames could mean 18 seconds. 9 seconds doesn't sound like much (if you consider how much my run sucked).
No, it's 9 seconds (139642 frames in your run/ 2327 seconds= 60 fps, and 535 frames/ 60 fps= 8.9 seconds). Also, your run didn't suck, there have been a few time savers so far, but overall it has been clean and well thought out. I know there will be greater improvements in the later levels, but the first level and a half have been done well.
I on the other hand, am tired of staring at rock walls, pillars, and other things just for time saving.
The scenery in the game is one of the best parts of it.
Not much I can do about it though, so..Might as well keep it up. ;3
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
when I watched this game TAS'd I had a slight headache from textures going by so fast. I'd say the scenery isn't too great, especially since you only see 20 feet ahead of you. the fog must be REALLY thick in Turok's world hehe.
I think that nfq's first level was pretty optimal, and it sounds like you believe more time savers will come later on, and based on the improvements you've made already I believe you. keep up the good work.
i am having difficulty running nfq's wip, i have correct version 1.2, settings match, yet when i run the wip, result is massive desynch, any assistance would be most helpful
but overall it has been clean and well thought out.
well thought, but not well executed.
i tried a little on the first level and was able to improve your run by about 80 frames already when i went to the first teleport. but i have no motivation to run this.
Joined: 11/18/2006
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nfq wrote:
i tried a little on the first level and was able to improve your run by about 80 frames already when i went to the first teleport. but i have no motivation to run this.
Maybe I don' t know what I'm doing then :-\ I'm sure my climbing techniques can be better, but I'm not going to start over to try and make this a "perfect" run. Considering the positive response from everyone who saw the first run, as long as I make my run look clean and it shows some improvement, it should get accepted. And if not it will provide a good frame of reference for someone else to improve on. I'll try to make it as good as I can, but I'm sure it will be far from perfect.
Joined: 8/26/2006
Posts: 1139
Location: United Kingdom
Need I remind you that ignoring perfection won't go down well with the judges (unless it is a mind-blowingly entertaining run). You should try and get as close to perfection as you can.
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Ditto. Especially if someone else went back and was able to improve upon a spot.
There are very rare cases where 100% optimization can be ignored sometimes. This is not one of them, with a shorter N64 game, an improvement on a non submitted run and an already discovered improvement to what you have so far.
I say go back and fix and, and then keep going.
Joined: 11/18/2006
Posts: 2426
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Alrighty, if I've already been beaten by over a second on the first small section I can see this will be a much longer project than I originally thought, and if I'm going to be dissecting each frame, I'll have to try and do it in chunks when doctoral school stuff is at a low point. Anyway, here is my WIP up until the second key of the third stage.
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/3230/Lvl%202%202nd%20Key%20%28-535%29.m64
I may get around to starting my new run in the next week, so in the meantime, anyone who wants to help, go through my current run with a microscope and find where I can make it faster. I still have a ton to learn, I guess, about this game and TASing in general. Thanks for any help anyone can offer, and I promise I'll try my hardest to make this a *perfect* run.
Considering the positive response from everyone who saw the first run, as long as I make my run look clean and it shows some improvement, it should get accepted.
My run would have probably been accepted too, although I only spent 10 days on it. Many people seemed impressed by it.
mmbossman wrote:
I may get around to starting my new run in the next week, so in the meantime, anyone who wants to help, go through my current run with a microscope and find where I can make it faster.
You didn't do the "walljump 6" the way it was supposed to be done. You can save more time than that because you don't have to push the button at all. The stone thing doesn't have to be lowered, you can just walljump over the whole thing. But you have to remember to lose enough health before. You shouldn't use that pulse rifle guy to minimize your health. Maybe you could even start losing life on level 1.
Because you don't use an analog controller your movements are often quite "digital" which loses time in some places.
Most people do a testrun before doing the real run.
Too bad you (and most people) have such little free time. I would have infinite time to do a TAS if I wanted to.
Mukki wrote:
You should try and get as close to perfection as you can.
But not too close or you'll get tired of it and lose motivation and start deforming fusion cannons and stuff.
Joined: 11/18/2006
Posts: 2426
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An unfortunate update: I've been back in school for a while, and after trying to get the sort of precise movements I need to even equal nfq's attempts, I've realized that it probably won't work very well to use a keyboard. I need the subtlety of a controller, and since I tend to work on TASing when I'm stuck in a boring class, I don't think I'll be able to try and complete this with the type of perfection that is expected (and rightly so) from this site. 8 hours a day in class/lab and work afterwards doesn't give me much time to play around with a physical controller, unfortunately. I still have interest in running this game, but it looks like I'll have to postpone it indefinitely (I'll have a large amount of time in the summer, so maybe then). Anyway, thanks to everyone for their help and critique, and I'm on to trying to find a new 2D game to run (much more keyboard friendly).
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
three words: TAS Input Plugin.
This handy dandy tool makes the time to make TASes go down (if you use it well), and the precision go WAY up.
Play around with it. You'll like it, especially since it can hold down buttons for you (like holding down the c buttons to keep you running while you worry about other things.)
Hope it helps!
Joined: 11/18/2006
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I was using the TAS input, and unfortunately all my actions were looking, as nfq said, digital. I don't have the patience to type in scaled numbers frame by frame (ie having the x axis be 19,45,85, 128 for a 4 frame sequence) just to make a turn behave as if I were playing with a controller. I absolutely love the ability to hold down designated buttons, or assign some buttons for autofire, but the directions are the things that are giving me the biggest problem. I spent probably 5 days working up to the first teleporter, and it was beaten by nfq in an afternoon simply because he was able to use a controller. Maybe I'm not using the TAS plugin right... comicalflop, are you going frame by frame with your JFG run or do you use slowdown for some of the more wide open spaces? And how can I get my actions to look less "digital"?? I'm willing to keep pressing on if I can get some good direction, but either I'm inept at the TAS plugin, or a controller does actually make this game easier.
Joined: 8/26/2006
Posts: 1139
Location: United Kingdom
You do seem to be using the plugin correctly, just not very well. Post up your own progress so we can compare it to nfq's. We may be able to see what you are doing wrong.
Failing that you could just buy a controller :)
Whether or not you make TASes is irrelevant as they are excellent for anyone interested in emulation.
They are inexpensive too. Mines was about £6 (about $11 - 12 approx). Sorry I can't give you more better prices; I thought I knew where you came from, but you seem to have already moved...
Joined: 11/18/2006
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Lol thanks Mukki, I already have a cheapo playstation 2 knockoff controller that I can try, I just can't be seen with it at school (my laptop is 'on loan' from my program and they don't like to have other software installed on it, so even though I do of course, I wouldn't want to broadcast it with a controller). I have some time this morning before classes so I'll try it out with a controller and see if that helps or makes things harder.
I was using the TAS input, and unfortunately all my actions were looking, as nfq said, digital. I don't have the patience to type in scaled numbers frame by frame (ie having the x axis be 19,45,85, 128 for a 4 frame sequence) just to make a turn behave as if I were playing with a controller. I absolutely love the ability to hold down designated buttons, or assign some buttons for autofire, but the directions are the things that are giving me the biggest problem. I spent probably 5 days working up to the first teleporter, and it was beaten by nfq in an afternoon simply because he was able to use a controller. Maybe I'm not using the TAS plugin right... comicalflop, are you going frame by frame with your JFG run or do you use slowdown for some of the more wide open spaces? And how can I get my actions to look less "digital"?? I'm willing to keep pressing on if I can get some good direction, but either I'm inept at the TAS plugin, or a controller does actually make this game easier.
There is only a few situations where your movement should NOT be ^64-99 in a direction if you aren't using c buttons, which could be aiming or turning if it's faster.. it's more accurate which is what you want I'm guessing, you shouldn't need to switch it that often.
all you have to do is use your mouse to pick the coordinates, not type them in.
Joined: 11/18/2006
Posts: 2426
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Ok, I feel like a tool. Somewhere in the back of my mind I knew that I could use the mouse to plot coordinates into the TAS window, but for some reason I never used it. I'm majorly embarrassed. I think I'm going to just start from a clean slate and start woring on this again. Thanks for helping out, maybe now it will be a little less frustrating.
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
to answer your question about how often I use frame advance: it depends. I use a combination of my controller (USB controller, dual analog sticks, got from BestBuy) my keyboard, and the input plugin. I use Frame advance for a lot of things. when trying to run to places, I'll test an angle, go to real time to see if my character will run/bump into anything, pause, change the angle, try again until I get it right.
