Post by Comicalflop

Posted: 1/16/2007 8:44 PM

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Weatherton

Experienced player (608)

Joined: 10/23/2004
Posts: 706

comicalflop wrote:

Hm... also, the special cup happens to contain 3 out of 4 stages where you skip laps (DK behind in the cave, Yoshi's Valley over the fence, Rainbow Road a co-op skip) and Boo's walkway which has a nice co-op skip, but not as quick as a lap skip like the other 3. would audiences really be entertained by merely skipping 3 out of the 4 races with a shortcut that the TAS would make look easy, and get a time of roughly 30 seconds to a minute for those three stages?

I think that's the purpose of a TAS, to rape the game and make it look easy! One thing I'm wondering now is: Is it faster to use Co-op for BB? Perhaps taking turns taking the big corner-cutter is faster than just finishing as fast as possible with one player...

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Posted: 1/16/2007 8:54 PM

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Comicalflop

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yeah but then there's a tradeoff of co-op vs. not... which is, trudging bowser to finish, because I don't think the second player can 'retire'. so while Toad would get first place in record times, Bowser would have to, for BB and RR where he serves as a boost to Toad, get into position, and wait for Toad to do his thing. only when Toad gets that thing done for the final lap can Bowser move, at which point he is likely way behind the other CPU's. a single player can probably do GP 150cc special cup: -do DK in 30ish seconds, by going backwards and doing the cave thing to skip all the laps -in Yoshi's Valley, again go backwards and lakitu skip over the fence, another easy win. -in BB, no co-op boosts so normally go through it, driving through the course as fast as possible unless a lakitu skip is found -in RR, same thing; go around the course as fast as possible. a co-op can: -in DK, do the same thing, but have Bowser and Toad do the cave glitch thingy so they get 1st/2nd place -in Yoshi's Valley, do the same thing; Bowser+Toad get 1st and 2nd -in BB, use Bowser to launch Toad through the level; toad gets first and redicolous time, abd Bowser has to trudge along after 3rd power jump to finish 8th -in RR, same as BB if only mupen had a soft reset feature, it'd be nicer to play all 16 courses in GP 150cc, in order to show all of the shortcuts possible. of course, the single player/co-op tradeoff would be present again. so it's basically down to: use Bowser to boost two levels to make Toad get faster time, but real time to make the levels last longer, or single player to get fastest real time run. also, is one person even capable of driving two karts around, especially one optimally and one to set up as a boost? speaking of mupen, Mario Kart 64 seems to run weird in mupen... with glide64, everybody's invisible. with gln64, everything is screwed to crap. with Jabo's, everything runs fine just... a little too fast. at least in co-op, so I'm guessing that it's going to have to be single player ANYWAYS since co-op runs too fast to be considered normal play.

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Posted: 1/16/2007 10:45 PM

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Weatherton

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comicalflop wrote:

a co-op can: -in DK, do the same thing, but have Bowser and Toad do the cave glitch thingy so they get 1st/2nd place -in Yoshi's Valley, do the same thing; Bowser+Toad get 1st and 2nd -in BB, use Bowser to launch Toad through the level; toad gets first and redicolous time, abd Bowser has to trudge along after 3rd power jump to finish 8th -in RR, same as BB

Actually, at the very least, on RRd both Bowser and toad could bump into eachother to do the shortcut. It doesn't require much of a jump and I think Bowser can jump off of Toad enough to make it. If not, it may be worth trying characters more similar in weight. Perhaps it is possible to get characters of similar weight to even do the BB SC (though I'm not sure without testing since the BB SC was very difficult to hit even using Toad into Bowser). So, I'm suggesting: Co-op Special Cup: -DK, both players do cave glitch and finish first and second. -YV, both players do 3lap canyon SC and get 1st and 2nd -BB, use first player to give second player huge SC then use second player to give first player huge SC and continue this until finishing: Player 1: lap 1 is SC off of player 2 lap 2 gives player 2 SC bounce, waits and then takes SC bounce lap 3 gives player 2 SC bounce, waits and then takes SC bounce then both players charge to the end -in RR, same strategy as BB except, maybe you can use a computer player for the Player 2's final SC so he doesn't have to finish the last lap using the regular Spiral SC. I think this would make Co-op faster than 1-player -> more desirable for TAS and also more entertaining.

comicalflop wrote:

so I'm guessing that it's going to have to be single player ANYWAYS since co-op runs too fast to be considered normal play.

This is not true, the emulator is just more capable of playing the game than the real console. The programmers actually changed the game to make it run faster so that the slower framerate in multiplayer did not translate into slower gameplay. I believe you can overcome this issue on a real console by overclocking it somehow hehe. Anyway, imperfect emulation has never stopped TASers before. I think you can limit the fps if necessary anyway.

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Posted: 1/20/2007 3:01 AM

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Rusty

Joined: 11/2/2005
Posts: 19

There are other methods of jumping higher than normal but these demand frame accurate use. The most common one that happens when you play multiplayer a ton is firing a boost at the exact same frame that a shell hits you. We spam the power-mushroom to avoid red and blue shells in multi, but it works on single mushrooms with good timing. You go up in the air very high, but you do not tumble. It might be possible to manipulate green shells and pull this off solo. It might even be possible to do with miniturbo's, but I have never seen that work. It is definitely a glitch, since it does provide immunity to getting hit by a shell for a second. This might not prove useful since it isnt as far as a jump over another player, but it would add a dimension to game play.

Posted: 1/20/2007 3:15 AM

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Comicalflop

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Weatherton wrote:

comicalflop wrote:
comicalflop wrote:
so I'm guessing that it's going to have to be single player ANYWAYS since co-op runs too fast to be considered normal play.
This is not true, the emulator is just more capable of playing the game than the real console. The programmers actually changed the game to make it run faster so that the slower framerate in multiplayer did not translate into slower gameplay. I believe you can overcome this issue on a real console by overclocking it somehow hehe. Anyway, imperfect emulation has never stopped TASers before. I think you can limit the fps if necessary anyway.

Trust me on this one. It runs WAY too fast in 2 player GP mode in mupen. having played this in GP many times, I know that on the colsole the speed difference between 1P GP and 2GP is not existent. in the emulator, 1P GP runs perfectly fine, and at perfect speed. in 2P mode, it runs TWICE as fast as normal, and not to compensate. That's an interesting glitch with shells... But I still think boosting over another player is superior, for speedrunning.

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Posted: 1/20/2007 7:10 AM

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ZeXr0

Joined: 8/27/2006
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But anyway, the second player must finish every lap, so a two player run maybe would be faster (because the game goes twice as fast) but it wouldn't save time compare to one player.

Posted: 1/20/2007 12:05 PM

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Wouter_Jansen

Joined: 10/31/2005
Posts: 329
Location: The Netherlands

yeah I remember my lil sis used to 'kill' shells by using mushrooms, she's a lucky git.

Posted: 1/20/2007 12:11 PM

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Wouter_Jansen

Joined: 10/31/2005
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http://dan01.com/Wouter%20Jansen%20-%20Luigi%20Raceway%20-%20Multi%20Player%20Shortcut%20-%2027''69%20(PAL).wmv http://dan01.com/Wouter%20Jansen%20-%20Mushroom%20protects%20against%20Red%20Shell.wmv http://dan01.com/Wouter%20Jansen%20-%20Super%20Mushroom%20protects%20against%20Green%20Shell.wmv http://dan01.com/Wouter%20Jansen%20-%20Super%20Mushroom%20protects%20against%20Mole.wmv

Posted: 2/2/2007 6:38 AM

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Comicalflop

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2 player vs. mode DOES run normally in real time in mupen, unlike GP mode. It also solves the problem of having Bowser to finish his lap. so a 2 player run of some sort is not lost. and you can save some frames in all menu navigations by having two controllers making input. Also, I've been thinking about the boosting into shells thing... you can hold two items. What if you have a green shell held behind you, and have a mushroom in reserve, fire a shell into a wall, have it bounce back towards you, and boost into it and gain crazy height?

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Posted: 2/2/2007 11:15 AM

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Weatherton

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Joined: 10/23/2004
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Well, not a bad idea BUT, I haven't seen this ever allow "crazy" height, it's usually a decent hop but not like what bouncing off a player allows. If there is a video showing otherwise, please link.

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Posted: 2/2/2007 3:17 PM

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Wouter_Jansen

Joined: 10/31/2005
Posts: 329
Location: The Netherlands

why link vids if they don't arise comments?

Posted: 2/7/2007 11:31 PM

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Comicalflop

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they did arise some comments. I'm trying to get your first linked video to see how much height is gained from boosting off of a shell, but the link is down. I want to see how much height is possible and if there's any speed run potential in the maneuver. edit: woopsie, apparently 2 player vs. mode started playing too quickly just like GP 2 player. I don't know if this is what I had happen before, but hrumph. More importantly, I realized that vs. mode in fact does not keep an in-game timer, thus removing any sort of cool world record breaking potential that it had. so, it looks like unless the speed problem can be fixed in 2 player GP (maybe it has to do with whether you're recording or not?) then Time Trials beating all world record on 16 courses is the ideal run. edit: hm those MK64 players are really good. I'm curious as to how trivial beating their times is. did some testing and it takes 23 frames to charge up an MT, optimally. For straights, what would the optimal amount of time between each MT be? it's possible to do one right after the other in rapid succession, do start charing a MT as soon as you finish one, but is it better to let the MT go for a little whole as you're facing straight for a while? like how long does a MT last, and is it more beneficial to start charging the next one at the end of your boost or in the start/middle? MT Sidewinding I'm checking with mariokart64.com to see if this is a good strategy or not. Edit: after a lot of discussing, I concluded that This is the proper and fastest method. I did some very thorough calculations/observations, and found the optimal time to start a MT after the first one begins to fade. I also found a slight speed boost from the beginning boost that utitilized one of the minor glitches mentioned here. "what I did find is that the speed boost from the green light goes to 80, and it stays at that speed until the boost is over. 75-80%% through the boost, if you jump and start a MT, your speed actually goes to 83ish for a brief moment. This is probably due to the small glitch where when you jump at the end of a speed strip you maintain the same boost speed for a little while longer, mush like in other games sliding on ice or other slippery surfaces and jumping at the end to keep the sliding speed (Sonic, Rayman 2, Megaman X, etc.) The game probably considers the boost at the beginning of the race to be the same kind. that, coupled with MTing sidewinding in a very straight pattern is what caused the gain in time, but I also think some of it has to do with using Yoshi. I'm restarting and using the strategy of the second video I posted. with more in depth looking at optimiziations and stuff, because you're speed decreases a little when powersliding, it's good to start your MT as soon as your speed reaches a little above your maximum normal driving top speed. let's use the 70-80 range assuming using Yoshi. when the MT is in effect, your speed is 80. when driving at top normal speed, it's 70. when powersliding, assuming you're driving on the pavement, your speed will drop to 70. The speed takes more time to drop from 75 to 70 when the MT is done than starting to MT as soon as the speed decreases to 75. The optimal time to start a MT is when your speed has reduced to about 73; by then, when you start powersliding, you'll still be at the same speed as if you were still driving at top normal speed."

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Posted: 2/11/2007 1:06 AM

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antd

Joined: 3/18/2006
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Location: Great Britain

That is good information. This game requires too much maths for me..... *says economics university student* >_> I'll try some time trials when I have the time.

Posted: 2/11/2007 1:17 AM
(Edited: 3/4/2007 9:57 PM)

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Comicalflop

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It's not too much math, but the hardest part I'd say is MTing and then getting the perfect realignment angle. It is kind of a steep learning curve, not in learning it (if you played it as a kid, you quickly grasp the speedrunning mechanics) but in the sheer optimizations for beaitng WR's (F-Zero anyone?) Michael Fried showed me a 15 second demo of what Luigi Race way should look like. Michael Fried's 15 second LR TAS demo If you haven't already found out, getting a MT takes 23 frames. when you jump and power slide, you hold the opposite direction, and at the right frame (which you can check) you turn the analog the opposite direction for exactly one frame, put it back in the same way the next frame, then hold R and no analog direction until the "E"s turn orange, then let go of R. use the analog to realign yourself, but turn one frame too much to the left/right, then one frame the analog left/right to realign yourself again for maximum boost. The Guys at mariokart64.com suggested that a good run for this site would also be 1P 150cc GP of all 4 cups, hopefully they'll be providing me vids of GP shortcuts (not the 2P ones.) edit: looks Like I'm doing this run. will post a .m64 and an AVI as soon as Luigi Raceway is done. currently on the 2nd lap, and about to perform the second "mylestyle" shortcut.

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Posted: 2/14/2007 4:48 PM
(Edited: 2/14/2007 9:02 PM)

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Comicalflop

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Mario Kart 64 150cc Mushroom Cup GP Luigi Raceway AVI surprise! One moment I'm testing, the next I'm actually making the run. Here is the first course, Luigi Raceway, for the MK64 4 cup GP run. This is going to play all 4 cups (watching through 3 cinematics) playing all 16 courses in GP mode 150cc. It took a lot of effort and a lot rerecords in order to pull off the crazy shortcuts, and to optimize all movements. Here are the times. yes, you are reading this right: Lap 1: 12"66 Lap 2: 23"43 Lap 3: 9"93. I chose to do GP instead of TT because of the additional shortcuts that you can do, the added variety/challenge from 150cc speed, items, and CPUs, and because a 4 cup completion follows the closest to a solid run for the site. There will be some future courses that will not have as fast lap times as TT, but that is only because of not having 3 mushrooms to start off with. For the majority, the GP will have drastically shorter times, as is the case for this course. The lap times were different for this course because different techniques were done in each lap. Toad was used because he is as fast as Yoshi and Peach, but he's a lightweight which enable him to accomplish the shortcuts. Future Cups will use Yoshi or Toad, depending on the type of weight needed for the shortcuts of the courses within that cup. Lap 1: Right off the bat, I use an everett start (revving up the engine beforehand, then letting go and pressing gas again for a slightly pixel faster boost) and boost into Luigi, pushing him aside, and boosting to the left off of DK. (I cannot manipulate the order of the CPUs. so I couldn't get DK/Wario/Bowser in front of me.) I launch Toad through the hill and into the water, and guess where Lakitu decides to place me? inside the tunnel! I manipulate a mushroom and procede to do a mylestyle skip. A mylestyle skip is bouncing over the wall right after the tunnel. Can I just say this trick is exceedingly hard to do. it took an average of 1,000 rerecords for each of the three times I did it. What you have to do is powerslide around the exit of the tunnel, and ram into the silver lining of the track, bounce up onto the hill, and bounce again over the wall. It is notoriusly difficult, and because of different circumstances, all 3 were done in different ways due to forces I could not control. Each mylestyle saves 2-3 seconds compared to using a different, but easier over the wall strategy. Lap 2: I have to go around the course this time, but there's a reason. I have to get the blue shell. ever wondered what's inside that item box hanging from the balloon? I go and grab it, and did a variation of Mini Turboing around the curve which preserved a lot of speed and was easier for me to do. I go into the cavern, manipulate a mushroom, and do another mylestyle (due to circumstances, this one was the one executed the best.) I then fire the shell, and use it to boost me into the hill, and I fall directly into the tunnel. I brake and turn at the same time, and mushroom to gain speed, then do one final mylestyle and end up with a fastest lap that is over 3"12 faster than any other WRfastest lap to date. My first lap was similarly 1"39 faster than the WR fastest lap. Phew! I really hope the future courses do not have shortcuts as difficult as the mylestyle. Mairo Kart 64 has been in bad need of being TAS'd, and I'm proud to finally show the end result for the first course at least.

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Posted: 2/14/2007 6:50 PM

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Mitjitsu

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How come it wasn't possible to land in the tunnel at the start of race? Seemed fairly interesting. I'm not sure what you could do in Moo Moo Farm, but I think the moles might offer some kind of interesting damage boost.

Posted: 2/14/2007 6:51 PM

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Zurreco

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The blue shell trick sounds super sketchy to me. Then again, a 9 second lap is more than enough to shut me up about it.

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Posted: 2/14/2007 6:56 PM

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hero_of_the_day

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Simply amazing! At first I thought a run of time trial would be great, but I now believe this all cup run will provide much more variety. The use of the blue shell was brilliant. I eagerly await this run to be finished, you seem like the right man for the job comicalflop. Good luck finishing this large project.

They're off to find the hero of the day...

Posted: 2/14/2007 7:13 PM
(Edited: 2/14/2008 2:27 PM)

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Comicalflop

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AKA wrote:

How come it wasn't possible to land in the tunnel at the start of race? Seemed fairly interesting. I'm not sure what you could do in Moo Moo Farm, but I think the moles might offer some kind of interesting damage boost.

Because of how limiting boosting off the opponent ahead of me is. when bouncing off a CPU, I go too far. with the blue shell, I land where the tunnel actually is. For Moo Moo farm, damage boost may not work because guess what happens when you hit a mole? you spin out of control in the air. maybe mushroom into one... I do have a shortcut idea for going through the moles. Tool Assistance should be able to navigate the mole holes successfully anyways.

hero of the day wrote:

Simply amazing! At first I thought a run of time trial would be great, but I now believe this all cup run will provide much more variety.

This was my reasoning in doing GP. TT TAS looks too familiar to the TT WR's, and only 3 mushrooms limits how many shortcuts you can do. GP follows more closely to what an actual run for this site should be, and has way more variance.

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Posted: 2/14/2007 7:14 PM

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Mukki

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Agreed, that was simply fantastic :) I really can't wait for this one.

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Posted: 2/14/2007 8:11 PM

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Twelvepack

Joined: 5/2/2006
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Location: Boulder, CO

I really hope this run makes it through to completion. 4 cups will make for an excelent tas.

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Posted: 2/14/2007 9:43 PM

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mmbossman

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Hmmm... some words come to mind. Wow. Impressive. Intense. Surprising. And above all else, dedication. I couldn't help a but notice that this run hasn't even made it into your sig yet, since there's no more room. You are the king of multi-tasking, and when you're all through with all of them sometime in 2008, you deserve a vacation. Oh, and good job.

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