I agree that WIP was crazy. Definately looking forward to that run. Are you sure the sliding was frame perfect though? It looks kinda unoptimized in the tunnel. Also, is it not worth it to slide back and forth even when going straight? I know this was faster for MK:DD, but maybe not 64.
Joined: 4/16/2004
Posts: 1276
Location: Uppsala, Sweden
I'm not very active nowadays but I just bumped into this thread and from the reading I did this sounds very exciting! I hope you finish the whole thing. Good luck with it!
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
kirbymuncher wrote:
Not that I do frame perfect testing, but it seems as though using a ghost makes you go slower. It might not be the best ides, in that case.
I don't remember this ever. I'd be using a ghost to steal a star.
thegreginator wrote:
I agree that WIP was crazy. Definately looking forward to that run. Are you sure the sliding was frame perfect though? It looks kinda unoptimized in the tunnel. Also, is it not worth it to slide back and forth even when going straight? I know this was faster for MK:DD, but maybe not 64.
the sliding was pretty optimal, for my purposes. the sliding inside the tunnel was tricky, and actually INCREDIBLY necessary in order to pull of bouncing over the wall. trust me, 1,000 tries for each mylestyle was difficult; I tested all sorts of powerslides into the jump. as people on the IRC know, I screamed likea drunken frat boy all 3 times I nailed it.
There's not as much room for mini-turboing in this stage. future courses will have the sliding on straights like you described.
Are you sure the sliding was frame perfect though? It looks kinda unoptimized in the tunnel. Also, is it not worth it to slide back and forth even when going straight?
Michael, you keep on saying that it's unoptimized. Please tell us where. Don't pull an AKA on us.
Is it to do with the mini-turboing? Should he be doing them on curves constantly? Should he space them out between 2-3 second intervals? Should he rely on the speedometer?
In ComicalFlop's M64 file, he tries to keep the speedometer at 80 as much as possible. Will miniturboing it more frequently raise the speed above 80?
I take it that in that world record video, you are at 100cc, so you can't go above 75 while driving without mini-turboing.
Please offer some input, or comicalflop is not going to fix what he may or may not have erred.
Michael, you keep on saying that it's unoptimized. Please tell us where. Don't pull an AKA on us.
Faster mini-turbos. More spacing between mini-turbos. Avoid hopping immediately after a mini-turbo. Take the turn into the tunnel more tightly.
Edit: Btw is it possible to get a spiny shell from the item boxes in the tunnel? If so, then you should get a star or super mushroom from the first set of item boxes and use it to cut through the grass on the first turn.
Edit: Also I'm pretty sure that using the mushroom for mylestyle isn't the best strat. Just do mylestyle without the mushroom, and then use the mushroom just before getting the spiny shell item box, and use it to cut through some of the grass, or even better, get a star instead of a mushroom.
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Michael Fried wrote:
Michael, you keep on saying that it's unoptimized. Please tell us where. Don't pull an AKA on us.
Faster mini-turbos. More spacing between mini-turbos. Avoid hopping immediately after a mini-turbo. Take the turn into the tunnel more tightly.
Edit: Btw is it possible to get a spiny shell from the item boxes in the tunnel? If so, then you should get a star or super mushroom from the first set of item boxes and use it to cut through the grass on the first turn.
This advice, to me, sounds like:
"How do I jump higher?"
"By jumping higher."
Spiky shell form the tunnel? Are you serious? how long have you been playing this game, and not know that the spiky shell is only available from the balloon? I know that was supposed to be a suggestive comment, but it comes out as unprofessional.
Sorry to get snappy/defensive, but I have to convey this:
1) This course took me a very long time to do and it was a SHITLOAD of effort, especially the 3 mylestyles. you and the other mariokart64.com people are saying "you're MT's are weak, redo, it's no big deal." Redoing this course is a VERY big deal.
2) The MT'ing does not look as bad as you and the mariokart64.com people are making it out to be.
3) You keep forgetting some details about when I go around the curve:
-when the letters are white, my speed is 80
-when the letters are yellow/orange, my speed decreases. you seem to suggest for me to decrease my speed a lot instead of keeping a constant 80 speed
4) after a MT, in 150cc, if I keep going straight for 4-5 seconds (which I do twice, once before the item boxes/balloon and right after the big turn, straight towards the tunnel) the speed remains at 80 for a very long time.
Spiky shell form the tunnel? Are you serious? how long have you been playing this game, and not know that the spiky shell is only available from the balloon? I know that was supposed to be a suggestive comment, but it comes out as unprofessional.
I've barely played GP at all. After I beat GP mode for the first time, the only time I ever played it was on rare occasions against my brother. I play mostly just time trials.
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Michael Fried wrote:
Spiky shell form the tunnel? Are you serious? how long have you been playing this game, and not know that the spiky shell is only available from the balloon? I know that was supposed to be a suggestive comment, but it comes out as unprofessional.
I've barely played GP at all. After I beat GP mode for the first time, the only time I ever played it was on rare occasions against my brother. I play mostly just time trials.
ok, I was under the impression that you've played all of MK64, not just exclusively TT.
After an hour or so with discussing with Fried, I am restarting Luigi's Raceway. Not something I am happy about, but it is for the best. The improvements should save enough time to be significant, and get me into the groove of making it 100% optimal/not making it possible to obsolete.
Here is a list of all improvements that will be made:
lap 1:
test if boosting into the tunnel and not the water is possible. (ok if it isn't.)
Don't slide in tunnel once there
Use MT to do mylestyle, don't use mushroom for boost
mylestyle like in 2nd lap (should be done for all laps, it is fastest and gives best outcome)
save the shroom, MT in grass if needed/as soon as possible
lap 2:
ssMT (MT on straightaway path) to item boxes, 2-3 times
use shroom right after pass through item boxes (so I can still get the blue shell)
4-5 MT's around curve
SSMT after curve towards the tunnel
MT into the tunnel
MT to do mylestyle, exactly the same way I did
lap 3:
turn closer left when hit by spiky shell (AB spin?), release shell earlier
execute mylestyle same way as lap 2.
This is going to be tough for me, but I have the course TAS'd once, hopefully that will make it easier for me. The toughest parts will be MT'ing around the curve, and replicating the mylestyles 3 times again.
wish me luck! I know everyone is anxious for linear progress on this, and I was ready to go ahead and start Moo Moo Farm, but this is for the best.
The run looks great so far. One thing I am wondering is whether the blue shell can be avoided entirely. The difficulty is that it would take both a mushroom and a green to get launched in the air properly. Because of this, I don't think there is any way to avoid the half-lap on the second lap. So the level would be pretty much the same, except rather than getting the blue, you would get a green then a shroom, use both to get back into the cave then get a shroom from the cave box and mylestyle over the wall. In the end, this would probably be slower since you wont have a shroom when you land in the cave the first time. There is some possibility that a MT can have the same effect as a shroom at stopping the shell's effect and launching toad into the air. Other than that, your strategy seems the best.
I apologize that I can't demonstrate the shroom-shell hop trick. It will most likely be useful on kalamari since it will allow you to take two trips through the tunnel. Planning ahead, for kalamari, drop back and get a star, then do the star trick. Then complete one lap normal, well try the trick shown on TAS videos. You will need to have a shell and a boost for the next lap, so pick up the shell from the first set of boxes after the shortcut and the shroom from the second one. One trick I just learned is that you can shoot a greenshell through the fence if you are close to it, so it might be possible to plant one in advance. It would add some flair to the run, but might not add speed. If the MT works, then only a shell would be required and it might be faster to backtrack the second lap to get a shell, or it might be possible to use the train to explode. The possibilities are many.
Another trick I found is that you can drive through the wall to the left of the second tunnel entrance(outside the fence) and you will fall in the water and latiku will pick you up and put you on the track.
Would RAM Addresses be of any help? Of course Mupen64, at the moment, does not have a RAM searching device built-in but an alternative is an outside program called ArtMoney. It's a real neat program for all kinds of RAM searching and Address watching, it's completely free and has a simple features so it is easy to use. I find it works better than some of the built-in RAM searching devices (no offense to the hard working Coders) as it doesn't lag emulation (I think only FCEUltra's RAM Watch feature's what lags when frame advancing and maybe my sound settings were also causing this, I don't know). You may consider giving it a try as it may help you greatly.
Besides all that, the WIP looks really well done even if there is some debate as to whether it can be improved.
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
VANDAL wrote:
Would RAM Addresses be of any help? Of course Mupen64, at the moment, does not have a RAM searching device built-in but an alternative is an outside program called ArtMoney. It's a real neat program for all kinds of RAM searching and Address watching, it's completely free and has a simple features so it is easy to use. I find it works better than some of the built-in RAM searching devices (no offense to the hard working Coders) as it doesn't lag emulation (I think only FCEUltra's RAM Watch feature's what lags when frame advancing and maybe my sound settings were also causing this, I don't know). You may consider giving it a try as it may help you greatly.
Besides all that, the WIP looks really well done even if there is some debate as to whether it can be improved.
I do not know. I'll look into it. a mupen MEM watch? watch my real speed? I'd like that! if you'd be son kind (I suck at finding mem addresses on my own) can you find actual kart speed?
There's no question, I'm redoing. Michael and I got inside the tunnel without landing in the water.
Joined: 10/31/2005
Posts: 329
Location: The Netherlands
anyone else get Unknown microcode messages with 'Mario Kart 64 (U) [!].z64' ? it works when I select the one mentioned in the message (or which matches best), but it's kind of annoying.
It's great to see you're working on this :) No real surprises on the strat but I have to say, lap 2's big long turn was painfully unoptimized (something that will be obvious to members of the mk64 community). Also, I think it may be faster to do the very first SC without going in the water (you can get a bit less distance or change the angle and hit the wall, and this can be done without tumbling as well). Other than that, did you learn anything about that double hop "MyleStyle" SC? The details of how to hit that SC are a bit of a mystery.
BIG EDIT:
Again, I'm very happy to see you working on this. I would like to offer you a suggested strat for LR that will save time compared to what you showed.
Drew's Suggested Strats (150cc 1-player):
LR:
lap 1
ab-spin into next player to make nearly a 180 spin and land on the ground below in the tunnel, facing correct direction.
MyleStyle up
lap 2
Get blue shell from Air Balloon and hold Z to drag it behind you.
Hit item boxes and pick up a single shroom (low probability but possible in 1st place, manipulate through direction of stick and buttons held ect.)
Use shroom immediately, while sliding into the tunnel
MyleStyle up
Possible Alternate lap 2
Get blue shell from Air Balloon and hold Z to drag it behind you.
do a 180 and take a single shroom from the item boxes
Head towards the finish line
Hit one of the cpu players and jump at the last possible second to hop into the tunnel
Mylestyle up
lap3
use blue shell to hit you over
(use additional shroom here if the alternate lap 2 is used)
MyleStyle up to finish
As for MT and SSMT strategies, I don't know what the speed values you are looking at are measuring (is it actually course over ground in the direction you want to travel?). In any case, I think doing semi-perfect MT's will not be too difficult as long as you know to avoid sliding as much as possible. For an SSMT, based on real-time strategies, I would hypothesize that the optimum strat would be:
press R + < on stick
continue holding R
> on stick for minimum frames (may only need to bring back to the neutral position)
< on stick for minimum frames
> on stick for minimum frames (again, possibly only need to bring ot neutral position)
Let go of R and press nothing but A for as long as possible, if you need to adjust your direction, do so immediately as it won't slow you down much if you do it while receiving the MT boost.
The key is, slide for as little time as possible. It is worth slowing down significantly from your cruising speed to get that boost charged up ASAP, ride the glide for as long as possible and then charge up another boost as fast as possible. Absolutely do not remain sliding while charging the mt for any longer than is absolutely required. Of course, depending on the turn, this may be longer than is usually optimal. For example, in BC, there are 90 degree turns, you will likely want to hold a slide around these for a bit longer than usual.
Have you planned out your strats for the next 15 courses? If so, it would probably be smart to post each before doing the course so we could offer ideas immediately. Though, I think you will find that many of the next courses will use the same strategy as the time trials WR's. You'll need to manipulate a heck of a lot of single shrooms and hope for luck with cpu charaters to hop off of for those courses where the 2-player vs SC's can be performed using cpu players.
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Wouter Jansen wrote:
anyone else get Unknown microcode messages with 'Mario Kart 64 (U) [!].z64' ? it works when I select the one mentioned in the message (or which matches best), but it's kind of annoying.
Hm. I don't.
Weatherton wrote:
It's great to see you're working on this :) No real surprises on the strat but I have to say, lap 2's big long turn was painfully unoptimized (something that will be obvious to members of the mk64 community). Also, I think it may be faster to do the very first SC without going in the water (you can get a bit less distance or change the angle and hit the wall, and this can be done without tumbling as well). Other than that, did you learn anything about that double hop "MyleStyle" SC? The details of how to hit that SC are a bit of a mystery.
BIG EDIT:
Again, I'm very happy to see you working on this. I would like to offer you a suggested strat for LR that will save time compared to what you showed.
Drew's Suggested Strats (150cc 1-player):
LR:
lap 1
ab-spin into next player to make nearly a 180 spin and land on the ground below in the tunnel, facing correct direction.
MyleStyle up
lap 2
Get blue shell from Air Balloon and hold Z to drag it behind you.
Hit item boxes and pick up a single shroom (low probability but possible in 1st place, manipulate through direction of stick and buttons held ect.)
Use shroom immediately, while sliding into the tunnel
MyleStyle up
Possible Alternate lap 2
Get blue shell from Air Balloon and hold Z to drag it behind you.
do a 180 and take a single shroom from the item boxes
Head towards the finish line
Hit one of the cpu players and jump at the last possible second to hop into the tunnel
Mylestyle up
lap3
use blue shell to hit you over
(use additional shroom here if the alternate lap 2 is used)
MyleStyle up to finish
As for MT and SSMT strategies, I don't know what the speed values you are looking at are measuring (is it actually course over ground in the direction you want to travel?). In any case, I think doing semi-perfect MT's will not be too difficult as long as you know to avoid sliding as much as possible. For an SSMT, based on real-time strategies, I would hypothesize that the optimum strat would be:
press R + <on> on stick for minimum frames (may only need to bring back to the neutral position)
<on> on stick for minimum frames (again, possibly only need to bring ot neutral position)
Let go of R and press nothing but A for as long as possible, if you need to adjust your direction, do so immediately as it won't slow you down much if you do it while receiving the MT boost.
The key is, slide for as little time as possible. It is worth slowing down significantly from your cruising speed to get that boost charged up ASAP, ride the glide for as long as possible and then charge up another boost as fast as possible. Absolutely do not remain sliding while charging the mt for any longer than is absolutely required. Of course, depending on the turn, this may be longer than is usually optimal. For example, in BC, there are 90 degree turns, you will likely want to hold a slide around these for a bit longer than usual.
Have you planned out your strats for the next 15 courses? If so, it would probably be smart to post each before doing the course so we could offer ideas immediately. Though, I think you will find that many of the next courses will use the same strategy as the time trials WR's. You'll need to manipulate a heck of a lot of single shrooms and hope for luck with cpu charaters to hop off of for those courses where the 2-player vs SC's can be performed using cpu players.
Fried and I mapped out every improvement we could think of, which I listed above. currently we found input that boosts us into the tunnel at the start, and hits the wall as we go down. Unfortunately we cannt land facing the correct direction, so A+B spin turning is going to be used to quickly turn around, and triple A tap to quickly accelerate.
I did 3 different mylestyles, all on accident. The 2nd lap's was the one most closely to the real mylestyle, and the other 2 were accidental variations that all accomplished the same goal. 2nd lap was the fastest, and will be attempted for all 3 laps. It took a lot of rerecords (1,000 each) to MT around and onto the silver lining, and bounce just right.
for the second lap, a mushroom is going to be manipulated inside the tunnel (and not used on the mylestyle) in order to drive through the item boxes before the balloon, and used immediately after in the process of grabbing the blue shell, and hopefully it'll have some boost for around the curve. When you press Z determines what item you get.
Head backwards towards the finish line with the finish line? maybe... don't know if it's faster to do a 180 degree turn like that and go backwards. Plus, the blue shell will kill momentum that I have by making me tumble in the air, and it leaves me with lap 3 with no shell.
I did not encounter any CPUs during my 3 laps after the start at all. I lapped them, but didn't get close enough to them until the end. with the 3-5 seconds saved from getting into the tunnel, and a faster lap 2, it might be possible to come across one, but I highly doubt it. I was mostly alone (which is a good thing.)
I haven't mapped out strategies for the next 15 courses. I have the WR TT vids, so I have some ideas. Mostly I wanted maps to try and plan ahead. over at mariokart64.com my route for LR was laid out for me, and as I redo LR I'm going to snoop around there to see if they can come up with good stuff. I also have some peeps here messing around with some random levels.
Some courses, like DK, WS, and FS, already have the route; same as the TT shortcut glitches, but with no 'shrooms to help out.
Would RAM Addresses be of any help? Of course Mupen64, at the moment, does not have a RAM searching device built-in but an alternative is an outside program called ArtMoney. It's a real neat program for all kinds of RAM searching and Address watching, it's completely free and has a simple features so it is easy to use. I find it works better than some of the built-in RAM searching devices (no offense to the hard working Coders) as it doesn't lag emulation (I think only FCEUltra's RAM Watch feature's what lags when frame advancing and maybe my sound settings were also causing this, I don't know). You may consider giving it a try as it may help you greatly.
Besides all that, the WIP looks really well done even if there is some debate as to whether it can be improved.
I do not know. I'll look into it. a mupen MEM watch? watch my real speed? I'd like that! if you'd be son kind (I suck at finding mem addresses on my own) can you find actual kart speed?
There's no question, I'm redoing. Michael and I got inside the tunnel without landing in the water.
This can be done in real time no problem, please be sure that you try ab-spinning to land facing the correct direction.
EDIT: By this I mean ab-spinning from the starting line, first go right and then cut hard left and jump backwards. In my experience this will work! If you have AIM, I can try to get on and talk to you this weekend, I am willing to help out or even drive sections if you wish.
Please keep in mind that though my posts in this thread (I am the OP) are focused on GP 2player SC's, I have experience with 1-player GP tricks as well and actually have plans for many of the tracks (and have had them for years).
I think it was mentioned a few posts ago but please also consider trying to use green shells to jump the wall instead of blue. You could shoot them off the opposite wall (by the stands) and drive towards the tunnel to jump in. This could allow you to get a closer item box than the hot air balloon. It would also allow you to make the jump two laps in a row since you could have three green shells.
Sorry, but what does "mylestyle" mean, and what is the origin of the word? Thanks. Just trying to keep up with the progress/plans here ;)
minor edit: 100th post, yay? heh.
Sorry, but what does "mylestyle" mean, and what is the origin of the word? Thanks. Just trying to keep up with the progress/plans here ;)
minor edit: 100th post, yay? heh.
It's the double hop SC that is really hard to hit on LR. Named after Myles Bukrim, the first karter to hit the SC in time trials (though the trick was discovered by David Wonn in 150cc).
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Weatherton wrote:
comicalflop wrote:
VANDAL wrote:
Would RAM Addresses be of any help? Of course Mupen64, at the moment, does not have a RAM searching device built-in but an alternative is an outside program called ArtMoney. It's a real neat program for all kinds of RAM searching and Address watching, it's completely free and has a simple features so it is easy to use. I find it works better than some of the built-in RAM searching devices (no offense to the hard working Coders) as it doesn't lag emulation (I think only FCEUltra's RAM Watch feature's what lags when frame advancing and maybe my sound settings were also causing this, I don't know). You may consider giving it a try as it may help you greatly.
Besides all that, the WIP looks really well done even if there is some debate as to whether it can be improved.
I do not know. I'll look into it. a mupen MEM watch? watch my real speed? I'd like that! if you'd be son kind (I suck at finding mem addresses on my own) can you find actual kart speed?
There's no question, I'm redoing. Michael and I got inside the tunnel without landing in the water.
This can be done in real time no problem, please be sure that you try ab-spinning to land facing the correct direction.
EDIT: By this I mean ab-spinning from the starting line, first go right and then cut hard left and jump backwards. In my experience this will work! If you have AIM, I can try to get on and talk to you this weekend, I am willing to help out or even drive sections if you wish.
Please keep in mind that though my posts in this thread (I am the OP) are focused on GP 2player SC's, I have experience with 1-player GP tricks as well and actually have plans for many of the tracks (and have had them for years).
I think it was mentioned a few posts ago but please also consider trying to use green shells to jump the wall instead of blue. You could shoot them off the opposite wall (by the stands) and drive towards the tunnel to jump in. This could allow you to get a closer item box than the hot air balloon. It would also allow you to make the jump two laps in a row since you could have three green shells.
we did A+B spin, in order to boost off DK to go over the wall at the correct angle. however, once you're in mid air you cannot change the direction you are facing; Toad was in the air heading straight towards the tunnel, and that's how he has to stay until he hits the ground. The game makes checks for what direction to face when going in the air based on how much you are turning before the jump, so that a full right turn before the jump makes you start turning right in mid-air, but after a while you stop and start going straight.
Don't know about jumping backwards into the tunnel, since you're still under the effect of a mushroom boost from revving the engine and that makes you boost forward not backwards...
I have you on AIM already. it'll be easy to spot me, I have the same AIM name as forum name (comicalflop)
that's good that you have plenty of 1P GP tricks up your sleeve. hopefully we can improvise with other CPUs to pull off some of the 2 player shortcuts, or find other ways to accomplish them.
the thing with green shells is I really do not know if they give you enough height. from my experience of playing, red shells would bounce up (not as high as blue shell) and green shells would sort of make you start tumbling forwards on the ground. 3 green shells could potentially allow for 3 shortcut laps (maybe ditch one, and hope the ones I shoot don't hit the green shell still circling me) but I really do not know how much height is possible from them. I'm willing to try though.
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Green shells don't work very well. As I suspected, you bounce on the ground, not launched into the air. the second bounce gets you sort of high, but not high enough to go over the wall. The physics of launching a shell is also screwed up, in the you need to ricochet it off the wall at an angle, and hit it on the rebound. driving straight towards the wall and firing it at the wall makes it fly backwards. (?)
The red shell does not come back to get me, but heads towards the 8th place CPU. so it looks like no strategic change for the 2nd lap redo of LR.
