Post by arkiandruski

Posted: 4/19/2007 9:43 PM

Post subject: Petition for new rules about ROM versions

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Editor, Reviewer, Experienced player (969)

Joined: 4/17/2004
Posts: 3107
Location: Sweden

With all the controversy over the recent submission for Resurrection of Warrior - Bionic Hitler, I think it's time we sat down and decided what the rules should be like. Currently they are very vague and will certainly get us the same problem again in the future. These are the options I've seen so far: 1) Always use (U), unless it doesn't exist, or there is a shortcut or trick that only works in (E) or (J). I prefer this option. It means we use games in a language about 90% of our visitors can understand, and which with our viewers are familiar. It saves us from people switching versions to get a shorter intro or faster scrolling (japanese) dialogue, which doesn't make the movie more entertaining or better played, just less intelligible. 2) Allow players to use whichever version they can get the shortest movie with, overall. 3) Allow players to use whichever version they can get the shortest in-level time with. The players will have to specify in their submission how much faster in the levels a movie is when aiming to obsolete a previous movie. 4) Publish (U), (J), and (E) as separate games. I will let the people prefering these alternatives lay out the advantages of them, since I'm biased and wouldn't do them justice. I think 4) is a particularly bad idea. Unless there are other suggestions than these 4, I would like to set up a poll in a while.

Posted: 4/19/2007 10:07 PM

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Boco

Former player

Joined: 3/30/2004
Posts: 1354
Location: Heather's imagination

5. Prefer a version for other reasons (graphics, music, level layout). Includes Castlevania 3, includes Contra (J), inludes Ganbare! Goemon, etc., etc.

someone is out there who will like you. take off your mask so they can find you faster. I support the new Nekketsu Kouha Kunio-kun.

Posted: 4/19/2007 10:08 PM

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laughing_gas

Former player

Joined: 10/1/2006
Posts: 1102
Location: boot_camp

I vote for 2. Faster text speed alone is not enough to justify a version change.

Borg Collective wrote:

Negotiation is irrelevant. Self-determination is irrelevant. You will be assimilated.

Posted: 4/19/2007 10:10 PM

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Editor, Reviewer, Experienced player (969)

Joined: 4/17/2004
Posts: 3107
Location: Sweden

Either there is a "not" too much in your post, or you really meant to support 1) or 3).

Posted: 4/19/2007 10:11 PM

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laughing_gas

Former player

Joined: 10/1/2006
Posts: 1102
Location: boot_camp

Oh, i guess it's 3 then.

Borg Collective wrote:

Negotiation is irrelevant. Self-determination is irrelevant. You will be assimilated.

Posted: 4/19/2007 10:16 PM

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stanski

Player (74)

Joined: 12/20/2006
Posts: 154

i vote 2. All I care about is speed. Entertain me without slowing down. I'm sure some idiot will post 5) whichever version is most entertaining.

http://speeddemosarchive.com/

Posted: 4/19/2007 10:27 PM

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BoltR

Former player

Joined: 8/12/2004
Posts: 651
Location: Alberta, Canada

Currently I have it changed to something similar 1), just with room for cases such as Castlevania 3. I think it's likely the best answer to avoid conflicts for movies which are made in the future. However, that rule is not really where the problem lies. The problem is in the obsoletion of past movies. The way that this part rules are CURRENTLY worded, would work. HOWEVER, this is only assuming the movie which is being obsoleted follows the first set of rules for making a new movie(1)). The reason behind this being: If a run isn't already made with (U), there was a specific reason why it wasn't. Thus the only reason to switch back to (U) would be something like a new trick for the (U) version was found which doesn't exist in the other version. Unfortunately the current wording isn't solid when dealing with old already published movies which might have been published in a different language with no real reason. So it does need to be reworded. I also see this thread turning into an argument of entertainment vs the SDA people. *coughstansksicough* ;p Because if you want to just go with the fastest version than a lot of the time you will end up running on the (J) version because of faster text, which will upset a lot of the (U) "I want to read the text) crowd".

Posted: 4/19/2007 10:32 PM

Post subject: Re: Petition for new rules about ROM versions

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Bisqwit

Editor, Active player (296)

Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 7469
Location: Arzareth

1 is a bad idea because sometimes there are very good reasons for exceptions as Boco points out. Reasons that have nothing to do with speed. 2 and 3 are bad ideas. I don't care about numbers. I only care about interesting movies. Speedrunners, who are already bored senseless with the actual game*, care about numbers. I aim to please with performance, not numbers. Of course, numbers are easier to judge than performance, but I'm still hoping to live true the goal that performance is most important. The ROM choice should not be dictated by numbers.† 4 is a bad idea, not only because of the burden it makes for site maintenance, but because it is a move that adds quantity way more than it adds quality.‡ *) Yes I'm aware that I used an expression that JXQ will eventually point out how untrue, biased and caricatured it is. And that my post did not offer a single solution. Which, JXQ will probably interpret as if I'm trying to force my way by outright refusing every creative suggestion. And that mentioning JXQ's name three times in this post makes it appear as if I have something personally against him. No, he just happens to point out often things like those in my posts. †) Someone will point out Rygar of Rockman 3. I was going to add "unless there's no other argument", or the word "singlemindedly", or the sentence "exceptions may exist", or something else, but I felt that it would disturb the rhythm of the post to add such distracting words there. It is difficult to be precise and concise when the matters are all but simple. ‡) Unless additional rules are attached so that 4 is a rare exception and not a rule. But even then, given a precedent, there will be people who will just do it without asking and present a judging problem. It is always difficult to reject a well-made movie because of organizing reasons that don't have anything to do with movie itself.

Posted: 4/19/2007 11:42 PM

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Deep_Loner

Joined: 12/26/2006
Posts: 256
Location: United States of America

From reading the thread, it seems that the problem with Bionic Commando is that there are both aesthetic differences and gameplay differences; although, evidently, not enough gameplay differences to justify having two movies published on the site. If you want strict rules, I propose the following:

When a game has no movies published, the first author of the first run for this game may choose any ROM for any reason, or for no reason.
Authors of subsequent runs of this game, whether obsoleting the first published movie or not, must use the same ROM as used in the first published movie unless:
- the subsequent run obsoletes the fist published movie or is to be published alongside such,
- and the subsequent run uses at least one method of play that is impossible or not reasonably feasible (meaning that the method(s) cannot be reproduced without a significant loss of time, as determined by the judges on a game-by-game basis) on the ROM used by the first published movie,
- and the author of the subsequent run thoroughly documents the method(s) used and demonstrates the impossibility and/or unfeasibility of such method(s),
- and judges and members of the TASVideos community generally agree, as determined by site administration, that such method is impossible or not reasonably feasible on the other ROM.
In the event that the first published movie for a game is obsoleted by a run using a different ROM in accordance with these rules, authors of subsequent runs of the game, whether obsoleting the new movie or not, must use the same ROM as used in the new movie, except as described in these rules.
In the event that a new movie is published alongside the first published movie that uses a ROM different than that used by the first published movie in accordance with these rules:
- The author of any run that is to obsolete any published movie must use the same ROM as used by the published movie that the new run is intended to obsolete, except as described in these rules.
- The author of any run that is to be published alongside the currently published movies may use any ROM for any reason, or for no reason.
Except for the reasons listed above, a run of a game with a published movie that uses a ROM different than that used by the published run may only obsolete the published run on the vote of a three-forths (75%) majority of TASVideos community members or on the agreement of three (3) appointed judges.
At the discretion of the judges and/or site administration, "alternate" runs of a game that use a ROM different than that used by the official, published movie for reasons not permitted by the conditions herein (such as different language or graphics) may be distributed supplementary to the published movie, but such shall be considered official, published movies and shall not be subject to obsoletion.

These rules give the first author the ability to choose whichever ROM is deemed approriate for speed or entertainment or whatever, while providing clear guidelines for what is allowed for obsoletion and what is not, and also allowing for exceptions to be made as seen fit without stepping on too many toes. My opinion, however, is that this kind of rule set is stupid, and that people shouldn't need them to settle disagreements. But then again, the "human nature" point does seem to be a valid one here. : (

Posted: 4/20/2007 1:37 AM

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Mitjitsu

He/Him

Banned User, Experienced player (532)

Joined: 4/24/2006
Posts: 2997

It should be noted that its much faster to use the Japanese version of OoT and MM, yet the current runs are being done in the English version, even though there is French and German available, they both seem to be slower. I could accept a run where the language gets changed ingame to get a faster run, but I couldn't accept a different game version played in Japanese/other i.e. purley becuase of faster scrolling text. I would willingly accept it being used if it offers something different or useful gameplay wise.

Posted: 4/20/2007 2:11 AM

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Halamantariel

Player (104)

Joined: 1/30/2005
Posts: 562
Location: Québec, Canada

This is a pretty selfish comment, but the currently published Lufia II run uses the (U) rom which has a horrible horrible horrible (times 1000) graphic bug somewhere in the game, which the (E) version doesn't have. With the rules stated above, I would NOT have a choice to use the damned ugly (U) rom? Unless that rule of "voting" to accept the version change is used. That could be good...

Posted: 4/21/2007 12:05 AM

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RT-55J

Player (147)

Joined: 11/27/2004
Posts: 688
Location: WA State, USA

You could always patch the game if the graphical error is not related to the emulator's quality. I doubt the judges would care very much as long as the end result doesn't desync with the original rom and it looks exactly like the (E) version.

Nach wrote:

I also used to wake up every morning, open my curtains, and see the twin towers. And then one day, wasn't able to anymore, I'll never forget that.

Posted: 4/21/2007 11:21 AM

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TorZelan

He/Him

Joined: 8/11/2006
Posts: 33
Location: Northern Sweden

If the text is readable (even frame by frame), it's nice to have it readable without learning Japanese or something. If the text is not readable (= can and will be skipped by the runner), it doesn't really matter for that reason. As for "one version can be faster than the other" and especially because of text scrolling, that's such a lame and bad excuse. Mainly because I want to see speedruns of games we've played or know of, not speedruns of a version I've never seen. The seconds faster than human playing it is should come from the inhuman playing level, not a lame versionchange. That's just cheating, I mean what the hell. If the (in most cases, for most of us) "normal" version doesn't allow something, then neither should the (J) version be allowed to. Else why not fire up some cheat. If you could have bought a (J) version to do stuff you normally couldn't, you could have bought a GameGenie or something. And what are those seconds gained from text scrolling? 15? "Oh my God! We shall all perish in boredom from the extra 15 seconds of readable English text compared to the only two minutes Japanese signs in the (J) version!" If there truly are in-game changes, then either it's not enough to matter, or enough to make it almost two different games. And if you don't want to publish both, again - I'd still way rather see the version I actually know and may have played before than the version that doesn't make sense. -edit- Else it starts feeling like speedrunning is becoming like certain music; speedrunning for speedrunners only. Screw the normal people, screw normal entertainment, technical stuff that only pleases ourselves - yeah baby! So I don't know, no option was "it" but 1 was closest I guess. (It feels like I have more thoughts on this but they come to me kind of randomly, just woke up =D)

Gamer, musician, bonesword wielder.

Posted: 4/22/2007 1:06 AM

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Zurreco

Former player

Joined: 8/1/2004
Posts: 2687
Location: Seattle, WA

Simplest solution: Use (U) if all versions are virtually the same. However, if there is a technique/skip that cuts a lot of useless space or additionally entertaining/non-hindering content in another version, then one should take in to account at what point they feel speed is more important than entertainment, or vice-versa. The last thing we need is someone changing from a beautiful and fluid version to a gaudy and disjointed version just to save 10 frames on the title screen, or something. Along with that, it seems illogical to switch to a version that is 5% longer just to incorporate a more visually appetizing background image in one level, or something like that.

hi nitrodon streamline: cyn-chine

Posted: 4/22/2007 6:59 AM

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Molotov

Joined: 5/30/2006
Posts: 39

Though I've stated my opinion before (more than once, I believe), I'll repeat it here. I'm of the same opinion as Stanski (option 2), in that if it's faster, use it. If this means using a Japanese version of something that is text heavy in order to save time, so be it. The less time spent doing something anybody can do (even without tools), such as skipping through walls of text, the better. Less time spent skipping through text means that a higher percentage of the TAS' run time is spent doing other things, which would probably mean more action. I also believe that action is far more interesting than skipping through text, but that might just be me. About the whole "knowing what's going on" argument, I believe that you should easily know what the idea is, if you've played the game before (which in an RPG TAS case, should be kind of important). If you ever get confused about what just happened, I think the author should write detailed comments explaining the actions taken in the run. That way, you can read about anything that confused you. Also something that may just be me, but any "I can't read the text" problems outside of battle (though I covered that issue in the above paragraph) shouldn't be an issue. If you need to read the text, play the game or read a script FAQ. On the other hand, if the game has advantages for a specific version (like a new trick or something, not "I can understand the text"), I believe that version should (likely) be used. When this is not the case, and they are all alike in tricks, use the fastest version. Anyway, this is all my opinion on the matter.

Posted: 4/22/2007 7:22 AM

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Bisqwit

Editor, Active player (296)

Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 7469
Location: Arzareth

＞Molotov Judging from the comments, "I can't read the text" was actually a noticeable issue in my Star Control II submission…

Posted: 4/22/2007 7:46 AM

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erokky

Former player

Joined: 4/6/2006
Posts: 462

I haven't any suggestions or opinions to add to this, but I was wondering about games that appear on two different consoles. The Lost Vikings for Genesis and Super Nintendo for example. Note: I was only using The Lost Vikings as an example. I think with it's 3 player capability, the Genesis version is far more superior to the Super Nintendo version to make a run of.

Posted: 4/22/2007 1:48 PM

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Cardboard

Skilled player (1671)

Joined: 6/11/2006
Posts: 818
Location: Arboga, Sweden

What TorZelan said sums up my opinions pretty well. If the versions are virtually the same, and if the text is skipable (= You will never see it, either in a J, U, E-run), both J and U can work. If the text is not skipable, and you must see it, might as well use the U-ROM so we have a chance of actually following the story. And if the text is 8 seconds longer, don't cry about it and use fast forward, which I assume one would do anyways, if the text was in a language one can not read/understand.

Warp wrote:

omg lol this is so fake!!!1 the nes cant produce music like this!

Posted: 4/22/2007 7:10 PM

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Deep_Loner

Joined: 12/26/2006
Posts: 256
Location: United States of America

Bisqwit wrote:

Judging from the comments, "I can't read the text" was actually a noticeable issue in my Star Control II submission…

Game text should be a non-issue because skipping text is expected; therefore, a TAS of a text-heavy game should be entertaining without any text at all. As for Star Controll II (and others, like the Mega Man Zero runs), the text can be read if either the .avi playback or emulation is run in frame advance. Using the English instead of Japanese text is a nice courtesy, but the decision (and the consequences of that decision) should be the original author's.

Posted: 4/22/2007 7:15 PM

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mwl

Joined: 3/22/2006
Posts: 636

AKA wrote:

It should be noted that its much faster to use the Japanese version of OoT and MM, yet the current runs are being done in the English version, even though there is French and German available, they both seem to be slower. I could accept a run where the language gets changed ingame to get a faster run, but I couldn't accept a different game version played in Japanese/other i.e. purley becuase of faster scrolling text. I would willingly accept it being used if it offers something different or useful gameplay wise.

Really...the Japanese versions are faster? In what way (is it just text?) and how much of a difference does it make? I prefer #2. Think of it this way: most of the dialogue is being scrolled through so quickly anyway that the choice of language hardly affects "entertainment" or "performance."

Posted: 4/23/2007 10:56 PM
(Edited: 4/23/2007 11:05 PM)

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spineshark

Joined: 3/27/2006
Posts: 34

Will the next version of Aria of Sorrow feature all the cutscenes? Should the Chrono Trigger TAS be required to play to full completion of all sidequests? [I wish I could post the rest of this separately for rhetorical effect] I read part of the Star Control II thread in question. I've never played the game, and the replies were getting repetitive, so I stopped reading on page two. :P This is probably the worst thing I've ever done on this forum, but I'm going to compare that to Star Ocean (which was accepted even though many people said that it was boring). My take on this is that one of the following is true: 1. Bisqwit decided that it was actually a mistake to accept the Star Ocean run because of all the people who complained about it 2. Bisqwit can't publish his own movie because of obvious favoritism 3. Star Ocean actually beat 50% yes votes so that was good enough At any rate, most of the people who responded "boring" had never played the game and said they didn't know what was going on. Most of the runs affected by any rule about game languages are going to be RPGs...and while there are clearly people who like watching them for plot, I feel like they're missing the point. Like many non-RPG tases, RPG runs show what can be done with minimal powerups and maximum luck manipulation. For those who say they don't understand what's going on in battle, all you find out from watching in english that you wouldn't in another language is the name-like that makes any difference. "Oh, Crono used Luminaire! So...uhh...what does Luminaire do?" Certainly authors shouldn't be forced to use a version they don't want to. In my opinion the populist process is a flaw when it comes to this sort of judging, because people familiar with the game will recognize the better run when they see it, and others might just say "it's only faster because of the text!" Plus, for (U) movies that are being obsoleted, if you're watching to see the plot, you can just watch the older version...I mean, obviously it doesn't matter that the rest of it uses sub-optimal strategies.

Posted: 4/23/2007 11:03 PM

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Xkeeper

Banned User, Former player

Joined: 12/23/2004
Posts: 1850

I could honestly care less about "speed" in these runs. To me, speed is only important because it helps prevent the run from dragging and becoming unentertaining. Being able to understand what is going on in an RPG or game is also nice, since it removes the "Wait, I can't even tell what's going on, who cares" factor. But there are also some games that, when fast, inherantly make no sense and that is what makes them great. Example: Tetrisphere. Either way, I don't see what all the horrible hate for version changing is. People should be allowed to use whatever version they want and not have to worry about treading on toes just because of odd, conflicting, and easily misinterpreted rules. But, as usual, I am not a leader of this site and my opinion of where it should've been going is not popular.

Perma-banned

Posted: 4/24/2007 3:49 AM

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mwl

Joined: 3/22/2006
Posts: 636

Xkeeper wrote:

Being able to understand what is going on in an RPG or game is also nice, since it removes the "Wait, I can't even tell what's going on, who cares" factor.

How about you play the game before watching the run?

Posted: 4/24/2007 4:03 AM

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adelikat

He/Him

Emulator Coder, Site Developer, Site Owner, Expert player (3599)

Joined: 11/3/2004
Posts: 4739
Location: Tennessee

I guess I probably prefer rule #2 more than the others. But, I don't think someone should have to use a faster rom either. Rejecting a run because the J version can have a shorter title screen would be silly. I also agree that seeing the text shouldn't be much of an issue. In the case of an RPG, if you know the game well, you probalby know what is going on even if you can't read the text. If you don't know the game well, your probalby won't know exactly what is going on regardless of language. For any game in general, I am not really concerned with graphics or text. My concerned is on gameplay and the interesting/novel things that can be done with it. So I am not really concerned which version is used. And if one version can skip the "boring" title screen/text or scroll through them faster, then I'd probably prefer to watch that verison. It would mean more action during the time that I am watching the game. I would also like to see the freedom of TASers to decide which version to use and not be "stuck" with a version someone prior to them decided on. If anything such a rule favors those who have known about TASes longer. Just because I got here late I should be forced to use a J version? Maybe we should just allow J & U to obsolete each other freely provided that an improvement beyond rom differences were made. It should be the author's responsibility to clearly demonstrate this. This proposal has the adavantage of: 1) Allowing someone to use the rom they prefer/are most famaliar with 2) Being the only solution to settle the rom choice disputes without contradicting previous obsoletions. Also, I am not particularly passionate about the situation. So I won't be to upset regardless of what is/is not decided.

It's hard to look this good. My TAS projects