Not really concerning the run but I found a patch that puts the japanese stats on the english version of the game =D
There's an insanely big difference but apprentices are still hardcore... the problem is, if you over-level, they will be over-leveled as well but with better gear =P
EDIT : Post now 100% better, including the link =/
http://members.shaw.ca/jskarzin/7thsaga/
Cool. I'm not sure if it should be used in the run though as it is kinda toning down the difficulty. Nice find though.
Guybrush: "I'm selling these fine leather jackets."
Wally: "Really?"
Guybrush: "No. I 'm lying."
Wally: "In that case, I don't want one!"
Currently working on:
Nothing at the moment.
I've done some work trying to figure out the best levels up to R. Pison, but this being my first try at a TAS makes all this really frustrating. At least after that is the land of the brains.
I'm not really here. Pressing Up+Down too many times glitched your graphics. And audio. Yeah.
I decided to see how I could do with this game, so I did a short segment of it.
No monsters were fought.
-I chose Kamil (This was a test run; it could've been achieved by any character)
-Went straight to Rablesk
-Saved at the inn, but did not use it
-Went to Romus and died
-Revived in Rablesk, got the Whistle
-Killed Romus with the Whistle
-After Romus I was level 3 with Fire1
I only sacrificed 11 frames to my knowledge.
Things I found:
-Sacrificed 2 frames before leaving Lemele to avoid all monster encounters on my way to Rablesk.
-Sacrificed 1 frame in Rablesk to get the man out of my way.
-Sacrificed 2 frames before the third room of the castle to avoid monster encounters.
-Sacrificed 5 frames before talking to Romus so he would kill me in one hit
-Sacrificed 1 frame for that stupid guy in Rablesk again.
The Earth key dialogue ends at frame 20293. Note: this was done on an incorrect rom, so take this as an estimation.
From what I saw anything I needed to manipulate could be done by stopping for 1-2 frames. Monster encounters were manipulable by a 1-2 frame wait in the previous area.
If anyone is interested in reviving this game feel free to contact me, I've got all of Christmas break.
EDIT: Apparently the Rom desynches due to an incorrect Rom version =(
I wanted to add:
I didn't manipulate the 2 people out of the way in Lemele Castle, I could get one if I waited a couple frames, but I didn't try long enough to get both out of the way.
It's probably worth it though because each step is 16 frames, that adds 32 frames to the run.
The other thing, I believe walking in zig-zags is as fast as walking straight lines, I did not test it too extensively though.
Hrm. It desynced for me just after leaving the throne room. Which version of the rom are you using? I don't think it's (U) [!]...
Edit: and if anyone was wondering, yes, I did flake out and not do the stuff I was planning on the earlier pages. I'm working on another test/WIP, though, so maybe that will motivate me?
@Kirkq:I checked the CRC listed in the SMV. You're using "7th Saga, The (U) [f1]". The [f1] means that the ROM has been altered from it's original form to run better on a copier or emulator. It's preferable to use the ROM that has the same contents as the original cartridge. Note that given the desync Dromiceius mentioned, you may have to redo some of your TAS if you use the correct ROM.
The correct ROM has the CRC "B3ABDDE6". It will most likely be called "7th Saga, The (U) [!]" when you find it. The [!] means that it's been verified as being a correct dump (i.e., the same as what's on the cartridge). When you find what you think is the correct copy, make sure to check it using a rom auditing program such as NSRTto make sure that your ROM is correct.
Got the new ROM.
Thanks for that info. Kinda lame that you guys can't see it, but I'll probably be doing more
It was just a test run, I got to Pison at level 3. It's the first time I've ever TAS'ed anything and I think I learned a lot.
Getting the whistle expends about 9140 frames (2.5 minutes). It seems like quite a lot of time by itself. If this is combined with leveling required for Pison 1 and perhaps a shopping trip after acquiring gold, this could feasibly be a useful strategy.
So with reviving this game in mind, the general strategy seems to be to get to the area with the brain enemies and grind on them.
What character can kill Pison at the lowest level is the current issue for me, and what is the fastest method of leveling up?
It's probably going to require a B Protect, and perhaps a B Power to kill him effectively, the best gear may also be good to have. If done right, acquiring money is not that difficult.
List of Items Available up through Pison 1:
200G to start.
Lemele Castle: Antidote, Potion 1, Magic Herb 1, Opal x2 (100G each), Mirror (100G)
Rablesk: Potion 1, Protection Seed, Mosquito (after Romus is dead - 75G)
Aran Castle Treasure: Psytech Sword (75G), Topaz (500G), Potion 1 x2, Power Seed, Opal (100G)
Cave Treasure: Antidote, Agility Seed, (B Fire and Magic Herb 1 after Pison)
SHOP ITEMS
------
Potion 1: 20
Potion 2: 100
Magic Herb 1: 80
Antidote: 80
B Power: 100
The 1 Trick in the cave gives 220 exp and 100 gold. We also decided that tricks drop random yet manipulable gems.
Romus gives 528 exp and 240 gold.
Stuff for later:
There is a windball on the ground somewhere in Zellis, perhaps this could speed up getting out of town with Brantu. I haven't looked at the logistics.
Perhaps taking an exigate into the cave to Melenam will put me closer to my destination after acquiring the wind rune, again I haven't checked the logisitics?
Question: Is the following doable?
I get an apprentice, and kill of my main character, thus the apprentice gets all of the exp from grinding.
Could I then with my main character alive or dead, recruit a new apprentice who takes on the level of my old apprentice, even though my main character is dead?
If Lejes could Vacuum Brains as needed this would be very quick I think. I think it's plausible to go to the inn, buy 9 M Herbs and kill 8 or 9 brains being underleveled.
Slightly off-topic, but if you haven't already done so, look at the FAQs on GameFAQs, especially nati's character FAQ. It has information that could be very useful for this TAS, like formulas describing how attack damage is determined.
Getting the whistle expends about 9140 frames (2.5 minutes). It seems like quite a lot of time by itself. If this is combined with leveling required for Pison 1 and perhaps a shopping trip after acquiring gold, this could feasibly be a useful strategy.
That's pretty much what I've done so far in my new test. The only question in my mind is whether using the whistle is faster than getting to level 3/4 and fighting... probably the whistle, but I'm going to investigate it anyway.
What character can kill Pison at the lowest level is the current issue for me, and what is the fastest method of leveling up?
How fast bosses can be killed will probably depend on which character you use. I was able to beat Romus at level 3 using Lux, whereas Esuna would have been killed horribly.
As for leveling, I've found that beating up hermits is best. Demons have too much defense/HP, wyverns dodge too much, and luck manipulation is severely limited in dungeons.
My theory at the moment is that one could encounter pairs of hermits, and with reasonably good luck, end the battle in three turns. Fighting them in pairs saves on the overhead of the end of battle wait (~300 frames.)
In my old test run, I was able to make Pison my bitch with level 5 Lux. Mileage may vary with other characters.
Edited to add:
I get an apprentice, and kill of my main character, thus the apprentice gets all of the exp from grinding.
Could I then with my main character alive or dead, recruit a new apprentice who takes on the level of my old apprentice, even though my main character is dead?
I'm not sure if the XP check would work in your favor, but you can't talk to the other apprenti when your main character is dead. They just nag you to get him revived.
If Lejes could Vacuum Brains as needed this would be very quick I think. I think it's plausible to go to the inn, buy 9 M Herbs and kill 8 or 9 brains being underleveled.
That should work, assuming you can get Lejes to level 12 to learn vacuum by that point in the game.
I'm going to have to give a big "yeah, that" to what Dromiceius said.
I should mention that Hermit / Wyvern battles are only sometimes not as good as Hermit / Hermit battles. Testing each frame you enter battle is key. Sometimes you just happen to be able to Defend-Critical a wyvern into submission with minimal or even no manipulation necessary... (the additional 3 gold and 7 experience is nice, too)
Brains have a bit higher Vacuum resistance than many other enemies, but with manipulation, that shouldn't be a problem. Even at level 7, Lux shouldn't have too much difficulty killing Brains (so long as Laser 2 doesn't kill ya), but it'll take ya a few more rounds of battle.
Unfortunately, the level of a newly joining partner only takes your level into consideration, not that of your current partner.
(big paragraph edited out) Wait.... if you have to wait until level 12 to get Vacuum with Lejes... at that level, you're going to be able to handle Brains no sweat with Lux solo anyway.
---
As well, I made a spreadsheet with the formulas from Nati's FAQ. It's not all that impressive, but if you input your character's stats, at least it'll give ya a good idea of how ya measure up to each type of enemy, and it's nice to be able to make sense of being able to hit max for 1 damage from Defend-Attack to hitting minimum for 8 damage with a B Power-no Defend-Attack. If anyone knows of somewhere that would host a 110k .xls file, lemme know, I'll make it available and save ya a lot of typing.
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No full test run has been made yet, and I'll be VERY surprised if this game is run faster than Chrono Trigger, so any help you can provide, Pasky13, would be great!
I should mention that Hermit / Wyvern battles are only sometimes not as good as Hermit / Hermit battles. Testing each frame you enter battle is key. Sometimes you just happen to be able to Defend-Critical a wyvern into submission with minimal or even no manipulation necessary... (the additional 3 gold and 7 experience is nice, too)
IMO, the thing that makes fighting wyverns worthwhile is that they have 2/16 chance of dropping a potion, compared to a hermit's 1/16.
I have to recant on what I said earlier, though- fighting two of anything at once doesn't work so good until you've gotten strong (or lucky) enough to OHKO everything. It turned out to be fastest just to pick on single hermits/wyverns until level 3.
If anyone knows of somewhere that would host a 110k .xls file, lemme know, I'll make it available and save ya a lot of typing.
A friend of mine has some webspace where I can upload it. Would you want to e-mail it to me, or...?
I'm doing another test run, which I might try to finish before the end of the month. I wouldn't want to do a serious run until there were a convenient way of predicting when/where the best fights are. Standing on the overworld for a few frames works wonders, but it's not exactly perfection.
In the meantime, I'm confused about one point: what is the map good for? If it's not manditory, then I don't see why I shouldn't skip Bonro altogether.
Brantu (the guy who opens that door to Melenam at the end of the Cave of Melenam will not join you if you do not have the map.
EDIT: PM sent to ya Drom.
About 6000 frames are spent killing Romus at level 3 as opposed to 9000 spent acquiring the whistle and starting grinding at level 3. It seems faster to me.
Perhaps we can try Pison at level 4 if we manipulate Lux's defense and hp to be as high as possible?
I think I'm going to try Lux for a segment for this early game portion right now.
I'm probably going to try a short segment (up through Pison hopefully with Lux (and probably the whistle again))
I'm going to try to be semi-optimized so we can get an idea of perhaps how many frames it takes to get to level 4 or 5 killing Romus with or without the whistle.
I think it may very well be faster to kill Romus with the whistle and start grinding at the level 3 he starts you at.
I will then kill 3 undeads and the trick to acquire level 5
EDIT: Did not realize how much better Lux's starting gear is than Wilme's*
It's important to note that leveling from 1 to 3 in one battle also means you'll have the problem of manipulating two sets of stat increases at the same time. It might be too inefficient to find them at the same time, so you should consider gaining enough XP that you only get one level from killing Romus. Then that should be compared against just beating him normally.
I'm not really here. Pressing Up+Down too many times glitched your graphics. And audio. Yeah.
You would have to be Level 3 for Romus NOT to give you two levels
along with that, what stats do we consider important
HP, Power and Guard seem to be the most necessary for this portion.
Remember stats are +/- 1 so at a rough estimate to get max of one stat is 1/3
3 stats maxed over two levels is (1/4) ^6 as the stats are weighted.
Perhaps we will need to master the RNG to be able to feasibly manipulate this.
I know Healblade and I have done a few hours of work on testing how the stat gains work at level up, such as how perfect of a level-up can we get, etc. Speed is going to be vital for being able to connect with the enemy (necessary) or ideally causing enemy misses (not likely). Magic is also the stat used for general magic defense, so that will be vital for surviving against bosses Doros(sp) for the Light Rune. MP for Lux is likely the only thing to skimp on.
I'm not really here. Pressing Up+Down too many times glitched your graphics. And audio. Yeah.
Healblade sent me the spreadsheet, and I've uploaded it here:
http://dromiceius.acranecorner.com/7thsaga.html
You can alternately download the spreadsheet directly.
As this thread becomes bulkier, I think I might turn the page into a data/WIP repository, sort of like the wiki on this site.
Kirkq wrote:
I will then kill 3 undeads and the trick to acquire level 5
Yegads! Your whistle strategy looks pretty solid, but Tricks are borderline impossible. I hope you can pull it off.
Can someone make sure this doesn't desync before I get too far in
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/888218383/Lux%20Romus%20Dead.smv
On frame 6453 Lux turns around for one frame before walking into the item shop, I can manipulate this away, but it does not cost me any frames, and I think it's cool =)
I get the treasures in the castle and town, buy two B Powers, and exit the item shop. I get another Opal in Aran Castle, I sell in Rablesk where I buy 2 B Protects and 8 Potions (Highly unsure how many potions I'll need.)
Frames required to acquire - These are calculated quite accurately.
Lemele Castle Opal - 589 frames (There is an antidote next to this that could be sold for 40G)
Lemele Castle Mirror - 849-881 frames (I think it should be 849, but I didn't feel like redoing it)
Lemele Town Opal - 599-631 frames (The guy outside the castle door is very unforgiving.)
Aran Castle Opal - ~564 frames (+/- just a couple)
Protection Seed - forgot to calculate, but its not more than 5 or 10 seconds
Aran Castle Power Seed - 2001 frames
Picking up the Potion 1 in Rablesk - 132 frames *this is FASTER*
Buying each Potion 1 - 164 frames
Potion 1 in Lemele from Lady - 240-250 frames
I tried manipulating stats when fighting Romus, every 1-2 frames waited on the overworld manipulates another stat sequence. The stats are determined when the fight starts since we will always whistle him on the first turn. After checking six sequences I could get:
HP: 16/16
MP: 5/6
Power: 8/10
Guard: 10/12
Magic: 5/8
Speed: 7/8
At level 4 a trick COULD take 2 hits to kill me and I COULD take 2 hits to kill it. Calculated with Max stats, B Protect, B Power
Failed petrifications, 2% chance to miss, and multiple potion uses could manipulate this in my favor. It's a stretch
NOTE: To be optimized you must let go of the direction you are moving at least 2 frames before hitting A. This is not difficult considering steps are initiated 10-15 frames before you will need to hit A
Another important one: Stopping while moving to use an item (such as manipulating a Protection Seed etc.) loses 2 frames, As does using it in a town or a dungeon: (The talk option is not available on the overworld, thus the same two frames are saved.)
The most optimal way of using a seed therefore is when leaving a Town/Dungeon. No frames are lost if you are already standing.
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1084734740/LuxPison.smv
My third battle I've won so far. XD
The wyvern-demon battle should be finished in two turns, I'm lazy. The random number changing on the overworld is not my friend at the moment, I haven't harnessed it yet.
I didn't try to manipulate the level.
On the other hand the sequence done by pison is only altered by the random number generator on the frame you hit A to pause, so I could run tests in real time through sequences.
Check out frame 40400 =) It actually occurs multiple times though.
The stuff before Pison is two seeds and a potion with a few frames wasted for optimal stats. The best way to negate these frames as I said before is when exiting TO the overworld. Otherwise the second best would be to stop walking on the overworld at a random space for a sacrifice of 2 frames. In the dungeon sacrifices 2 frames to skip the talk option, plus some in my case for bad luck manipulation.
Also, Anyone who thinks they are able to manipulate the RNG in this game well, I would love your help in the future. Otherwise I'd say I'm doing fairly optimally, disregarding acknowledged laziness sacrificing a few frames here and there, in my test run.
EDIT: I am discontinuing further work until further notice, if at all. I would love to collaborate if anyone chooses to work on this run in the future.
