Joined: 11/11/2006
Posts: 1235
Location: United Kingdom
Just-for-fun run.
Savestates (and as such rerecords) were used during those blasted special stages of doom and near the end where its so late here and I can't be bothered.
Should probably just be considered a playthough/scout for interesting game behavior..
<adelikat> I am annoyed at my irc statements ending up in forums & sigs
5 deaths? Most of those were rip offs though...
One trick I did not see you utilize. Pressing A in mid-air puts you into a spin (if you weren't spinning already), from there you can homing attack or air-dash. It's nice when dropping off ledges or after bouncing off a spring.
And before I forget, this trick also cuts your upward velocity after bouncing off a spring ... if you'd rather spend more time on the ground, it's a nice trick.
I'm doing a little test run with shadow, getting all emeralds.
It is not completely optimized, since the hack is not finished.
This is the run until the 3rd boss beaten (thus featuring super shadow at the end).
I'll propably comment it later.
EDIT: Like DDRKhat's and upthorn's movie, the camera has to be set to extended before.
5 of 6 stages done
I used more precision for misty maze and starry night zone (= labyrinth and starlight zone) now, which led to more glitching.
Super shadow and his unlimited acceleration start to pay off. However, at the end of act 2 in starry night zone, I had to slow down, as shadow constantly broke through loops and walls (unfortunately in the wrong direction).
Set camera to extended before watching.
Good work, love how you blitzed Metallic Base.
I think I know of a shortcut in the transition from Metallic Base act 2 to act 3 (when Robotnik pushes the switch). Somehow, I was able to fall through the bridge before the cutscene, straight to act 3. I did it by zooming to the right real quick before the screen scrolls, going through the bridge before it got rendered.
Mind you, I was using an older version of Megamix as Sonic, but I think it may still be possible.
Also, why didn't you hit Robotnik that one last time after the final boss?
(loved what you did to the final boss btw, only Shadow could do those moves)
Joined: 11/11/2006
Posts: 1235
Location: United Kingdom
If anyone is having trouble deciding whether its worth watching this run, it is. The sheer speed alone in Starry Night zone is incredible.
But Dr. Robotnik lives to fight another day...
<adelikat> I am annoyed at my irc statements ending up in forums & sigs
r0xm2n and Raiscan, thanks for your great support and help (especially Raiscan for encoding questions). You helped to finish the run faster and with more precision.
Comments:
About shadow:
IMO shadow is not the explorer, as described at the sonic retro page. That role suits Mighty better, as you are granted additional stamina and moves for exploring the map for shields (in this case you usually have enough rings to perform the shield swap).
I think it is better to use shadow to avoid the level layout by taking upper routes and jumping over obstacles.
It seems to me also, that some abilities contradict each other.
Compared to sonic, his normal form is very weak (sonic is overpowered anyway imo), so getting the emeralds is the most reasonable with shadow. Therefore you need the 50 rings at the end of the stage, which is difficult, as you hardly get rings while flying over the level and on top of that his dash costs 5 rings. This prize is very high, considering, that he has the least floor contact, due to his double jump, especially since sonic's dashjump does pretty much the same, is executable on the floor and air and is for free (however shadow's dash DOES benefit from sprint shoes).
On the other hand, his super form mostly outperforms the ones from the other characters (at least taswise), due to the seemingly unlimited acceleration and the resulting ability to glitch through the level. The downward dash is the only thing, that he misses.
Interesting facts for tasing:
- while the height of the first jump can be controlled, the vertical velocity of the second jump is fixed
- the ability to roll into a ball mid air is essential, as it allows to perform the double jump, hits enemies and can decrease upwards movements (earlier floor contact after springs)
- unfortunately the bounce after a homing attack can not be controlled, however it very often resets the ability to double jump (not bosses)
- I still don't know why, but during sunset hill zone the speed addresses B018 (horizontal), B01A (vertical) and B01C (general), changed permanently to D010, D012 and D014. I was never able to use the first addresses again
- to reach the high velocities in the super form, A needs to be autofired, not held (which isn't fun due to constant lag)
- as long as he is fast enough, shadow can break item boxes by running through them (this partly makes good for the ugly running animation)
-the sprites always on top option makes it a lot easier to detect hidden item boxes, springs and the annoying drill enemies in misty maze zone
- misty maze zone (= labyrinth zone) lags as hell
About the run:
- I didn't aim for complete perfection, as the hack is still on progress, making a run only temporarily important. Especially the first 3 zones were played rather sloppy.
- did not test many routes for the special stages
- using the s-slopes would probably have been faster than jumping over them in sunset hill 2 and 3
- The route for the second emerald was not only copied from upthorn, it was performed worse
- upthorn's glitch in the second act seemed not to work as good for shadow, so I didn't include it. There is also a second possibility before the 1st boss
- many levels except for sunset hill and city outskirts have roofs above the screen to prevent skipping parts
- ring collection routes for dark fortress zones were the worst
- shadow (and probably other characters as well) can't run on top of platforms with a fence below in the city outskirts zones
- I needed to slow down in starry night 2. there seems to be a lot of glitching potential there due to the high speed, however it only happened arbitrarily and always in the wrong direction. I bet nitsuja could rape these parts
- the pushing block trick in metallic base zone (=scrap brain), was not possible. however the first one pushes shadow in the upper platform, which unfortunately only enabled glitching to the left
- all routes for metallic base 2 seemed to be about the same length, so I just took the route with the fastest 50 rings collection
- for metallic base 3 I still don't know if this route would have been the fastest. The other one would have had enough rings for the super form, but much longer (also very late transformation)
- with hindsight, I agree, that making the last hit on the end boss would have been better. I'm sorry about that
@ r0xm2n: To be honest, I didn't check for glitches at the bridge during the run, but it sounds very likely, that you are right. Maybe I will check on this. If I find a way, I will post it. Great find, thanks.
PS: Youtube link to the run is in my previous post
I know this is not even a WIP, but I am bored as hell doing laundry, so here are my suggestions for your mighty run (really truly a great run, I just need SOMETHING to do as opposed to shooting myself with boredom. Nothing personal that I chose your run ;) )
Levels after Super Mighty is obtained: I am rather disappointed that you never caught 'em all (shields), for no reason.. I just wanted to make the horrible Pokemon reference.
I really liked how you used the bubble shield to fall quicker whenever you could.
Misty Maze 1/2/3: Is there a reason why you always get a regular shield when one is presented? IDK if it is a stylistic reason or whatever.
Misty Maze 1: When you do a bubble bounce and then an electricity shield double jump, do you actually have to switch to the required shield or, because you are super mighty, can you use all of the shield powers at the same time/double pressing A for bounce, and double pressing B for electricity jump?
Misty Maze 2: I think you should have skipped getting the invincibility , due to massive lag.. atleast on my computer.
Misty Maze 3: Why/how did you turn from super mighty into regular mighty with 70+ rings? IDK if I missed something or if it was a glitch ect.
Starry Night 2: BOO at Super Mighty, I enjoyed the MIDI Michael Jackson D:
Final Zone: I was very entertained with the glitchy piston, made me laugh at how crappy Robotnik builds his war machines.
I really enjoyed this movie.. for some reason, even though mighty kind of sucks, I could see him being one of the best characters to TAS with due to his ability to have/hold ALL of the shields at one time, thus giving him unlimited possibilities with shield usage and techniques.
adelikat wrote:
I very much agree with this post.
Bobmario511 wrote:
Forget party hats, Christmas tree hats all the way man.
I know this is not even a WIP, but I am bored as hell doing laundry, so here are my suggestions for your mighty run (really truly a great run, I just need SOMETHING to do as opposed to shooting myself with boredom. Nothing personal that I chose your run ;) )
Hey, I'm all up for trying to improve :)
stickyman05 wrote:
Levels after Super Mighty is obtained: I am rather disappointed that you never caught 'em all (shields), for no reason.. I just wanted to make the horrible Pokemon reference.
Do remember, I'm trying to zip through the levels as fast as I can, I can't spend too long trying to catch a shield, if it's along the route, that's great.
stickyman05 wrote:
I really liked how you used the bubble shield to fall quicker whenever you could.
You'd be surprised, in super form, even taking tiny breaks to bounce everywhere, it's still hellafast because of the acceleration.
stickyman05 wrote:
Misty Maze 1/2/3: Is there a reason why you always get a regular shield when one is presented? IDK if it is a stylistic reason or whatever.
Because the regular shield has an ability for Super Mighty, pressing "A" in the air while possessing the shield, he does a "burst" of energy, killing all badniks on screen, this takes approximately 4-6 frames and can make things alot easier to get past. Can also be used on Robotnik (But you have to hit him for the final hit)
stickyman05 wrote:
Misty Maze 1: When you do a bubble bounce and then an electricity shield double jump, do you actually have to switch to the required shield or, because you are super mighty, can you use all of the shield powers at the same time/double pressing A for bounce, and double pressing B for electricity jump?
You can use all powers at once, it's rather awkward in real-time to do this.
B+up = Lightning Shield, B+Right = Flame Shield, B+Down = Bubble Shield
stickyman05 wrote:
Misty Maze 2: I think you should have skipped getting the invincibility , due to massive lag.. atleast on my computer.
I did notice that after I had completed the run, but lack of incentive will mean it shall be there for a while, at least until I can improve my route enough for it to be worth it. I didn't do any real lag-handling, the lag-frame count gets to approximately 5000 frames by the end of it, simply from using the flame shield excessively in "Marble Zone" act 1 (I forget its name)
stickyman05 wrote:
Misty Maze 3: Why/how did you turn from super mighty into regular mighty with 70+ rings? IDK if I missed something or if it was a glitch ect.
Turn to regular mighty? I didn't, you're probably referring to his Normal shield ability, as stated before, it kills all badniks on-screen.
stickyman05 wrote:
Starry Night 2: BOO at Super Mighty, I enjoyed the MIDI Michael Jackson D:
I know, I know.. from now on, I'm gonna do runs with Super music off.
stickyman05 wrote:
Final Zone: I was very entertained with the glitchy piston, made me laugh at how crappy Robotnik builds his war machines.
Was a interesting bug I came across by mistake doing the Sonic run. I found it quite hilarious :)
stickyman05 wrote:
I really enjoyed this movie.. for some reason, even though mighty kind of sucks, I could see him being one of the best characters to TAS with due to his ability to have/hold ALL of the shields at one time, thus giving him unlimited possibilities with shield usage and techniques.
Even though he is slower, hard to build up speed, I can't help but enjoy watching my recording of Mighty and appreciate it, simply because, it may not be too fast, but it's fast enough to enjoy.
Misty Maze 1/2/3: Is there a reason why you always get a regular shield when one is presented? IDK if it is a stylistic reason or whatever.
Because the regular shield has an ability for Super Mighty, pressing "A" in the air while possessing the shield, he does a "burst" of energy, killing all badniks on screen, this takes approximately 4-6 frames and can make things alot easier to get past. Can also be used on Robotnik (But you have to hit him for the final hit)
Ah, this would be an excellent reason for getting that shield... XD
DDRKhat wrote:
stickyman05 wrote:
Misty Maze 3: Why/how did you turn from super mighty into regular mighty with 70+ rings? IDK if I missed something or if it was a glitch ect.
Turn to regular mighty? I didn't, you're probably referring to his Normal shield ability, as stated before, it kills all badniks on-screen.
I didnt notice all the badniks dying onscreen, however I wasnt really paying any attention for that so that is probably the reason why you seemingly reverted for ~1 second.
EDIT: I DO remember mighty being in the air, so that must have been when you used the power.
adelikat wrote:
I very much agree with this post.
Bobmario511 wrote:
Forget party hats, Christmas tree hats all the way man.
Good run, DDRKhat. It shows the different levels much better. It also makes me jealous, how many rings one can collect by going the intended route :)
While Mighty is a good character for beginners or explorers (shadow for cheating, sonic for speed), imo it is very hard to make speedruns with him. Much route planning is required as most shields are not on the path, so one has to deliberate about if and which shields to take and which route to take out of the many resulting possibilities.
Also, I think he is way underpowered (Sonic > Shadow > Mighty). His normal form is somehow useful, as long as you collect shields (of which the right one never seems to be available), but his superform is plain weak.
He still has to gather shields and in the case he really got them all, he just got the movement abilities super sonic already had (I never played super sonic in the megamix, but I assume he even has diagonal dash, which makes him again better). The additional kill-all move does not make up for it, as its use is very limited due to invincibility.
On top of that, the very useful flame shield dash, is already available for sonic (great for tases).
The run itself is well done and I don't think it is worth to improve it, as the hack might be upgraded again.
However, I wonder how a super sonic run might look like, as his abilities are perfectly suited for the problematic misty maze zones (=labyrinth zone).
Entertaining run. Pretty obvious you were experimenting with the game.
Liked the wall-glitch in Dark Fortress 3 (Marble Zone 3), City Outskirts as a whole (although you could have just gone right over the top), and your manipulation of the final boss.
I swear Super Mighty has the best raw acceleration of the 3 super forms (though super sonic has moves to get him up to speed speed quickly, and the speed cap doesn't apply to super shadow). Also, it's possible for super mighty with a flame shield to sorta glitch the screen, I've glitched through sprites with it (and even gotten crushed several times).
Entertaining run. Pretty obvious you were experimenting with the game.
Liked the wall-glitch in Dark Fortress 3 (Marble Zone 3), City Outskirts as a whole (although you could have just gone right over the top), and your manipulation of the final boss.
I swear Super Mighty has the best raw acceleration of the 3 super forms (though super sonic has moves to get him up to speed speed quickly, and the speed cap doesn't apply to super shadow). Also, it's possible for super mighty with a flame shield to sorta glitch the screen, I've glitched through sprites with it (and even gotten crushed several times).
Well the wall glitch I admit I found by chance, also the version you see was revised 4 times, trying to get it to zoom correctly to the right side, I don't just zoom all the way because I don't have the ability to see off-screen so I cannot jump at the right-time to further manipulate it and zoom through the level, so considering my lack of tools, I still managed to handle that glitch pretty speedily.
As for most of the rest of the run, It was simply re-vising "my" route for Mighty, and discomfort, my PS2 controller (which I use, [] A, X B , O C, L1 frame-adv, R2 pause, L2 quick-load, R2 quick-save) is a little harsh on the thumb when holding down the D-pad , using a Analog is dreadful as it typically holds up/down at the same time (which is NOT what I want alot of the time)
What I will have to sit down and do is find a comfortable keyboard setup and try to work my way back to it.
Has anyone thought of doing a new game+ for a video of this game. Once you have cleared the game getting all the chaos emeralds you can start a new game which includes moniters that instantly turn you super, give you 50 rings and in the case of mighty gives you all the shields. You wouldnt have to bother doing the special stages and you would be able to use super abilities throughout the entire run.
I know making these type of runs are few and far between, I remember a discusion based on doing this in S3&k but never saw it take off. Since this is a TAS of a game that is a hack anyway I thought I would bring it up.
Interesting idea there.
Question is, has anybody actually found an S monitor? I've yet to see one in the many times I've played through this hack...
Apparently, S monitors make super sonic literally fly (or at least stop falling).
Upcoming new character.
Seems a bit underpowered right now though. Though the spindash seems much faster..
Wow, I like the whole tails deal, although I am relatively cautious of the idea [see rant]... is this legit, though? It sounds like this is the main Megamix guy, but since I dont know for sure I figure I would ask. Who next, Knuckles?
On to the rant!
I dont know if there is any real advantage to using the tails I saw played. Sure, he has a tail sword type of thing, but is that really it? His super tails form should keep the tail sword thingy like it is (the long ranged energy blast or whatever) but I think that an increased flight acceleration, speed, better control (not necessary for a TAS XD), and infinite time for flight needs to be implimented for him to be able to one-up any of the other characters.
adelikat wrote:
I very much agree with this post.
Bobmario511 wrote:
Forget party hats, Christmas tree hats all the way man.
Joined: 11/11/2006
Posts: 1235
Location: United Kingdom
Tweaker is the main coder. I can confirm that this is genuine and one of his AVIs. I thought I'd post it here just to let some people know that work is still being done on it.
I agree that tails needs to be beefed up a bit (give him something like a tornado in super form where he sucks up and destroys everything on screen \o/) but I'm sure they have something in mind for him.
<adelikat> I am annoyed at my irc statements ending up in forums & sigs
