Post by Wodball

Posted: 10/7/2004 6:24 AM

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Blechy

Former player

Joined: 6/27/2004
Posts: 550
Location: New York

This has been done on SDA, and it looks WAY better than the X4 run. It's quite nice.

Posted: 10/8/2004 4:26 PM

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Blechy

Former player

Joined: 6/27/2004
Posts: 550
Location: New York

Well I've begun working on this- I wouldn't estimate too much improvement, the vast majority is perfect, but there are just some errors I'd like to correct. However, question- I'm a little bit into the intro stage, and I've been taking damage to prepare for a faster fight with vile. I'd like to keep with the takes-no-damage theme so that I can compete with wodball rather than add an additional movie, but would taking damage like this cause the movie to be categorized differently? edit: also, I found a little bug which reduces recovery time in some instances. So it looks pretty cool. The way I work and with how busy my schedule is, it might take a couple weeks. Starting it up was a sort of a spur-the-moment type thing so it's possible I may even stop doing it a little ways in. There are some really stupid errors in the MMX2 run- it was really a learning experience for me(I made a lot of mistakes in umihara, they were just hard to notice because of the kind of game it is), and I don't expect to make them this time around: I will be watching what I have so far much more often and carefully than I did for MMX2.

Posted: 10/8/2004 8:44 PM

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Cazlab

Joined: 7/5/2004
Posts: 551
Location: Karlstad, Sweden

So are u working on a new improved run?

Posted: 10/8/2004 9:26 PM

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Wodball

Former player

Joined: 4/24/2004
Posts: 50

What bug are you referring to? I only know one damage animation reduction, and that occurs when you are hit near a wall. I'm VERY busy this semester, but I will try to get a satisfactory 101% run. I figured out some really good places to use the mega buster in the 8 robot masters stages. I hope I can get this down to under 37:00, but this is still in pre-alpha. Anyway, things I'd like to see improved on my movie are: 1) Storm Eagle 1-- Screwed up on the timing, and let him fly too high, which cost me about 5 seconds. 2) Intro Vile- Take damage at the Bee Bladers rather than at Vile to shorten the battle 3) Sigma 1- Run through the Pre-Vile Stage with damage considerations. 4) Velgauder (Spelled right?)-- Better manipulation, so that he ends up coming farther to the left. That way, you can fire a lot of shotgun ices without waiting for a reload. 5) Sigma 2-- Better weaving that doesn't cost time. Don't shatter the record, I might want to try to break yours. --Woody

Posted: 10/8/2004 10:53 PM

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Blechy

Former player

Joined: 6/27/2004
Posts: 550
Location: New York

Yeah that's what I mean. But you can do it in the intro level by shooting the last X-buster at the bee blader whatnot at just the right time so that you kill it, AND get hit by it, transforming it into a wall so that getting hit takes only a matter of frames. Same for the cars at the end, right before vile. But they do half as much damage as the bees. Anyway, I guess it's not exactly a bug, but it will make it faster- and if you say it's something you had intended to do, then I'll continue with that. You were aiming for a speed run rather than a minimalist run, right? The site agrees with that anyway, so I'm going to see if the weapon upgrade will make the game go quicker since you can get it so early. What follows is the comprehensive list I made when watching your movie. I made it awhile ago- a lot of them are ones I'm not sure of, and I only watched it through once. These aren't necessarilly every thing I want to improve in yours, just things I want to keep in mind for each level when I do them, in case I forget otherwise. Lag stuff especially.

TEST WEAPON UPGRADE ON BOSSES General platform jumping JUMPING BEFORE FALLING Intro -Jumping to make bees appear on screen sooner? -Lag after 2nd(3rd?) bee: 3 cracking floor tiles with hornet -Jump over cars Vile battle Chill Penguin Jumping up uphill ground? -Lag after reaching bottom of first chamber: kill bat? Short pause killing ostrich after capsule Higher road vs lower road? Snowballs before boss Boss: (Be charged?)dashing pellets vs charged? Storm Eagle -Lag caused by mace guy on first elevators: kill him(jump forward as soon as possible) -Lag caused by second blue missle guy: charged? -Wait for platform under him to lower(don't walljump)? -Collision glitch elevators: jump under them, collision pushes right for wall jump -As far on right on storm eagle elevator as possible -Boss: Be charged? Check which hits first. Boss: Prevent from flying? Flame Mammoth -Use glitch -Touch/be jumping off right conveyors as much as possible -Boss: shoot Eagle weapon early? Spark Mandrill -Lag in first dark chamber: kill bees if possible -Be Charged: Kill last ostrich in dark chamber rather than jumping -Boss: deflection off wall vs direct hit(both first and through fight) Armored Armadillo How early to jump off elevator? Ice to take out bat before second ride(causes lag?) -Entertainment: Fall down second ride shaft and jump back on -Lag: Take down as many enemies as possible on third ride- jumping forward and back -Boss: Dash to him THEN shoot -Boss: Careful of last shot Launch Octopus Take out first turtle Shot placement at angler minibosses -Using blowfish suction for speed -Lag caused by four blowfish after first angler -Lag caused by snake miniboss -Boss: lag caused by two sets of missles onscreen Boomer Kuwanger NEVER take ladders where not necessary Entertainment on large elevator: move with music/closely avoid all enemies Lag caused by some turrets on extending platforms -Prefer to kill helicopter turrets and jump on than wall jump Lag caused by wall shooter before blue platform Boss: running preferred to teleporting Sting Chameleon Ways of avoiding not yet formed rock enemies: some can be wall jumped over by tiny bit of wall on floor Falling rock after last not yet formed rock enemy: ice causes lag Boss: hit as early as possible: walljump+shoot rather than shoot -SIGMAS: AFTER BOSS FIGHTS WITH WALLS ON RIGHT, JUMP THROUGH AFTER 2 BLOCKS EXPLODED Sigma 1 Turtles Vile/Zero bug -Vile shouldn't be doing an action after his final hit Be close to Vile after his final hit -Vile manipulation: has no hit recovery Charge later than right after Zero Last mace in zero corridor can be jumped in front of No charged rolling shield? Try to jump on platforms rather than jumping all the way across Careful for lag after Kuwanger Manipulate spider: as few crosses as possible(0 maybe) Sigma 2 -Don't walljump off any platforms in first corridor -Lag caused by rolling shield after Penguin -Kill helicopter turrets and jump on platforms rather than walljumping -Storm Eagle: be on right side at end(use his tornado to be pushed) -Alternate way than chameleon?(doubtful) Boss: Face does not blink but may have cycle Boss: May not explode until you hit ground Sigma 3 First turtle Armadillo: be as far right as possible after fight More blowfish after Mandrill: may have to use charged electric to clear Ice on spiky ground after Octopus? Some way to conveyor to Flame Mammoth faster? Final Major dog miniboss improvements Sigma 1 dashes towards at first, but may also leap towards Entertainment: jump through Sigma 1's bullets

Posted: 10/9/2004 4:01 AM

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Blechy

Former player

Joined: 6/27/2004
Posts: 550
Location: New York

Intro's a little over 7 seconds faster. Man, setting up vile's ship to be in the right spot was an unexpected pain in the neck.

Posted: 10/9/2004 5:14 AM

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Boco

Former player

Joined: 3/30/2004
Posts: 1354
Location: Heather's imagination

Blechy wrote:

vile's ship

It's not Slave One </starwars>, it's Death Rogumer. This is Eagleed's ship, and you fight him on it and crash it into the power plant.

someone is out there who will like you. take off your mask so they can find you faster. I support the new Nekketsu Kouha Kunio-kun.

Posted: 10/9/2004 8:43 AM

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Zurreco

Former player

Joined: 8/1/2004
Posts: 2687
Location: Seattle, WA

where did you conjure up Slave One from? thats not even remotely near left field. Back to the topic: I think getting the buster upgrade may end up taking longer than not getting it. Aside from the fact that you will miss the interesting roof glitch in Flame Mammoth's level, you will have to go to the trouble of getting the helmet upgrade (and climbing back up) and then go to the trouble of breaking your way over to the buster upgrade, which not only takes off time to charge and fire in the demo, but also tends to create lag when youre breaking the blocks. Plus, where would you really be using the upgrade? There aren't enough instances in the game where the amount of time it takes to charge and fire the blast (even though you do conserve the final shot, taking a hit tends to make you lose the power... i think) is faster than simply switching over to shotgun ice or the spark shot. With that being said, assuming that the buster upgrade does take longer to get and use than to not get and substitute special weapons in its place, the buster upgrade should only be incorporated in a 100% run, especially since you will have the helmet upgrade by then otherwise.

hi nitrodon streamline: cyn-chine

Posted: 10/9/2004 9:39 AM

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Viewer

Joined: 6/4/2004
Posts: 284

Zurreco wrote:

where did you conjure up Slave One from? thats not even remotely near left field.

Well...based on Vile's appearance with the helmet, and the fact that his Japanese name is Baba, it could be said that his ship, if he had one, would be based on Slave One. (I wonder if this means he bangs his head on doors, too...)

Posted: 10/9/2004 3:09 PM

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4matsy

Joined: 4/25/2004
Posts: 498

And his helmet lookin' like Boba Fett's... And Sigma's fort being on a floating island...not exactly Death Star material, but the concept is the same...

Posted: 10/9/2004 5:25 PM

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Blechy

Former player

Joined: 6/27/2004
Posts: 550
Location: New York

Forgot the helmet was necessary- I think I had perceived its location to be more similar to the sub-tank's in flame mammoth, in that it'd be a tough jump but then you just needed to jump off of them. Anyway, I'd be mainly using it against bosses, but I wanted to test it first to see if their weakness, when charged, did twice as much damage to them like in X2. But, I think you're right about needed the helmet, and so testing won't even be required.

Posted: 10/10/2004 12:49 AM

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Blechy

Former player

Joined: 6/27/2004
Posts: 550
Location: New York

Just tested it for curiosity's sake: it turns out that bosses take 3 damage from an uncharged weakness, and 4 when it's charged. Not only would it not be worth it, but it would be less effective since it takes so long to charge it.

Posted: 10/11/2004 6:09 AM

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Wodball

Former player

Joined: 4/24/2004
Posts: 50

Again, let me worry about the 101%. I'll get the upgrades and stuff. Oh, if you have a chance, I'd like to see your Intro and Chill Penguin so I can base the beginning of my run off of it. Of course, this is assuming that I have time in the next few weeks for this... --Woody

Posted: 10/12/2004 7:01 AM

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Blechy

Former player

Joined: 6/27/2004
Posts: 550
Location: New York

I meant in doing a fast-as-possible run. It took me all of yesterday to do chill penguin(the boss alone), then today I wanted to try out another method which took another day. The latter version ended up being faster, but not nearly as much as I had thought it would. Each movie file has the same path up to chill penguin, and both get through chill penguin(including the intro) about 13.5 seconds faster than the current movie. Saying chill penguin is a pain to fight is an understatement, and I know that someone like launch octopus will be even tougher. Chill penguin will be a bit easier the second time around since there will really be no strategy involved: as long as I can hit him, I'll be doing the maximum amount of damage. Anyway, in the first run I was just hitting him as fast as possible, just as long as he didn't go invulnerable. I found with dashing pellets you can hit him once every 67 frames or so, and so you can do 6 damage in 201 frames. With a charged shot I forget what it was, but you can hit him every 105 frames or so: you could do 6 damage in 210ish frames. So I opted for the uncharged pellets most of the time. However, I realized that if you could shoot an uncharged pellet from across the screen so that it hit him at the end of his recovery, you'd be charging sooner, so you could rush in, and hit him with a charged shot with very little delay between his invincibility and the next hit. I tried to do this as much as possible in the first run. Once this was completed however, I did a second run in which this was pretty much only used, which sometimes forced me to allow him to be vulnerable for a frame or two to affect his AI. Basically, I couldn't let him use his ice breath(at least in my direction) because it'd prevent me from getting close, and obviously he couldn't slide. The end result looks good, except the very beginning of the fight I need to delay shooting him for a moment because I just couldn't get him to use something other than his ice breath or slide at first, so I made him use his ice breath into the wall. For this reason I'm not overly content with it, but I think it's mighty close to as good as it can be. First: http://www.thezorz.com/agile/penguin_old_megamanx.smv Second: http://www.thezorz.com/agile/~megamanx.smv

Posted: 10/20/2004 12:50 AM

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Blechy

Former player

Joined: 6/27/2004
Posts: 550
Location: New York

Wodball, have you done a test in which you prevented storm eagle from flying at all? I've been trying, and can't quite get it. Aside from either causing him to either fly off the screen and divebomb you, or just fly up for a moment to spit an egg(obviously better), it seems like you can't affect his AI at all.

Posted: 10/20/2004 6:14 AM

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Blechy

Former player

Joined: 6/27/2004
Posts: 550
Location: New York

Also, would I be correct to assume that everybody would prefer the glitched path in flame mammoth's stage opposed to the usual path even if it is slower?

Posted: 12/11/2004 4:58 AM

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BillBull

Former player

Joined: 5/22/2004
Posts: 462

It appears as though both of these runs have died...

Posted: 12/11/2004 8:31 AM

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Bladegash

Former player

Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 484
Location:

Luckily someone else is lurking in the shadows ready to make one! (not me)

Posted: 12/11/2004 8:46 AM

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Blechy

Former player

Joined: 6/27/2004
Posts: 550
Location: New York

The latter 3/4 of this semester was a killer. I'm on break for a month, and I'll probably work on things in that time. However, though I've progressed in this, I'd rather fix MMX2, so that will probably come before this.

Posted: 12/11/2004 12:17 PM

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Boco

Former player

Joined: 3/30/2004
Posts: 1354
Location: Heather's imagination

This is the most appropriate topic in which to say this.. I just plaued about 12 hours of X8. If it does not win game of the year, I will be sorely disappointed. This is, so far, the greatest CAPCOM game I have ever played (possible exception for the Tenchi wo Kurau series).

someone is out there who will like you. take off your mask so they can find you faster. I support the new Nekketsu Kouha Kunio-kun.

Posted: 12/12/2004 3:02 AM

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Wodball

Former player

Joined: 4/24/2004
Posts: 50

My run isn't dead... It's just put into stasis. Like Blechy, school has been pretty nasty. Also, like Blechy, I would like to fix my previous submission. I came up with a few more ideas that I'd like to try out, as well as things I gathered from Blechy's MMX incomplete run. So, contrary to previous plans, I will be redoing MMX first, then doing an acceptable 101% run. Do I have a timeline? Nope... and probably won't get things started until after finals! And also, I expect to finish MMX 100% a good 2 months after the new minimal run comes out. --Woody

Posted: 12/12/2004 6:15 AM

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Blechy

Former player

Joined: 6/27/2004
Posts: 550
Location: New York

Then I'll stop work on this all together, and I wish you luck. I did beat Storm Eagle, and then stopped because a) I still wanted to further investigate his flying, and b) I am certain that using those conveyor belts in Flame Mammoth's stage can help your time. I was testing various things regarding them however, and never really finished that. Basically, I wanted to see if for the conveyor belts that go with you, if a jump after dashing on them is just as fast as dashing on them. For the belts that go against you, I wanted to test dashing along them and immediately jumping vs. dashing the opposite way for one frame, jumping, then turning around and continuing. Tell me if you need this clarified. Here's how far I got: http://www.thezorz.com/blechy_megamanx.smv If I remember, there was a part in the intro stage with the tiniest bit of lag, which could have been avoided. Watching it again I didn't see it, but I remember it being there. Possible things that might be improved: Intro Killing the rolling robot fella at the second bee. Him being there causes lag. I'm pretty sure I tried various things regarding this but couldn't get anything better. Getting Vile to come out faster. This caused a fair amount of stress, but the current one was the very best I could get. Also, it might be possible to stop him from jumping back immediately, but that too I tried and couldn't achieve. Chill Penguin The boss- man this guy was a pain. You can test alternate ways of fighting him, but I couldn't tell you how. Storm Eagle The boss. Not sure his flight can be avoided, but if so it will save time. If not, I think my fight is close to perfect. One other note: If you are walking on the slanted/diagonal ice you have a small amount of gained speed. If you jump off of it at the last frame possible, you can maintain this speed over straight ground where you'd normally be walking at the slower, normal pace. This occurs for dashing as well, however the dash must be initiated on the slope. If you start a dash on straight ground then continue over the slanted ground, you will maintain the normal speed. This isn't enough to warrant stopping a dash to start it on sloped ground, but it is enough to aim your dash/jump lengths to land on one. Be careful of the lag the mace fellas in Storm Eagle cause. Good luck.

Posted: 12/14/2004 10:42 AM

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Cazlab

Joined: 7/5/2004
Posts: 551
Location: Karlstad, Sweden

Intresting things at the storm eagle boss, I'm pretty sure it's possibly to make the whole boss without him flying around. Would love to see another improved version :D

Posted: 12/26/2004 5:35 AM

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Blechy

Former player

Joined: 6/27/2004
Posts: 550
Location: New York

DeHackEd has been working on a run, which can be found at http://dehacked.2y.net/mmx-to_Storm_Eagle.smv Very creative intro level, using a car to not only take damage, but speed his progress as well. This put him ahead of my run by a whopping 187 frames(though I avoided lag in some places he did not). What follows are approximate significant frame timings, in the format of Location: My Time/His Time +/- frame difference(positive if he is ahead, negative if I am) Password after intro: 9280/9093 +187 Chill Penguin's door screws: 15864/15688 +176 Password after Chill Penguin: 18765/18688 +77 Storm Eagle lands: 23243/23053 +190 Last shot on Storm Eagle: 24363/24375 -12 This is very surprising to me. I stated the reason why he starts out much faster than me. By the time the Chill Penguin boss is over, the difference in frames is greatly reduced, due to my use of charged shots. Then, in Storm Eagle's level he catches up again. However, he made it known in the IRC channel that he was having great difficulty manipulating the Storm Eagle fight, and in the end it causes me to come out on top. Thought I'd let you all know(he was unfamiliar with the thread). Wodball, I guess you now have some competition.