Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
I just can't. This .m64 is saturated with new techniques, extreme optimization (i.e. NO frame left behind) and loads of other goodies... I'm afraid you'll just have to wait. Submission will come in due time.
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
No, seriously I won't show anything until submission, and I'm steadfast in that decision. You'll all love the surprise factor so much more. You have nothing to fear, it will eventually be complete, I won't leave it unfinished, especially because the reason Nitsuja stopped is the speedrunners kept finding new strats and beating his times (at this point I'm the one that finds new stuff and they need to find ways to incorporate my findings into their runs) and I have memory watching.
As to progress wise, I just finished the Migen Sr. segment of the Migen Brawl, which is the 21st level out of 52 (most of the long stages are coming up in world 3 with the day of events. World 4 and 5 are actually shorter than world 3 is). I still have no idea how long the run itself will be in total length... 45 minutes? 50? 55? Do know that 32 minutes will be the mark for the beginning of world 3.
I think a perfect Migen Brawl! is actually my most-anticipated level. As much as I'd really dig a WIP I know I'll love being able to sit down and watch the whole thing and most likely have my mind blown.
So... what's your plan for the last screen of Snowstorm Maze? Pot or no pot?
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Well, my original Migen Brawl was already 3+ seconds faster than Nitsuja's. And assuming I can luck manipulate this part I'm at correctly, the entire rest of the fight is going to look incredibly different to the point of non-recognition, and also be 100% optimal.
I'm not entirely sure what you mean, but I think the answer is Pot (I'm no druggie though). I'm guessing this is whether or not to use the pot to collect all the clancers? Hm, that's actually something to test, I know that with frame perfection it's possible to throw all those guys very fast, I just don't know if Marina can throw them far enough. However, watching TheCape's Ghost Catcher I found a time saver once all the flower clancers are in the area and the star appears. I also found a great time saver for the bomb section.
-Snowstorm maze should have, after everything, at least 2-3+ seconds time saved.
-Clanpot shake I already found a faster way to the top of the level, plus I know another place I can save more time.
-Clance War I already have a faster way to destroy the mech, I might shave a few more frames hopefully when I get to it again.
-Missile Surf there's a new way to position the missile that should save a lot of time, plus some boosts and I can do the end sequence better.
-Clanball lift I don't know. There's probably some time to be saved somewhere.
-There's a new strat for Marzen 64, plus I can make the spring segment better.
-Chilly Dog I can probably save time with a new strat.
-Lunar, I have no idea. Memory watching can probably help me find a faster strat.
-The Day of, I can shave a frame here and there or probably save time with the brown blocks.
Many of the events I can save some time, either by doing something different or with luck manipulation.
-Cat-Tastrophe, I have no idea. This is going to be tough to beat Nitsuja's time (unless my text scrolling is faster, in which case I am already 1 frame faster.)
-Cerebus Alpha there's the speedrunner's strat to optimize, so this is guaranteed 4+ second improvement, or more if I can possibly luck manip those missiles, and if not just grab and shake them optimally. I have a few ideas.
And that's just world 3. You should see my extensive notes on the next two worlds.......
*looks at failed summoning attempt*...*cries*
okay. I suppose I can be patient. Just out of curiosity how are you going to be making The Day Of quick? Are you just going to burn though the dashing events, and then for the jumping one do *just* enough to win? And I forget the rules for the ball event...is it catch a certain number of balls? or is it time-based? Anyways, really looking forward to this run here!
I am just a silhouette, a silhouette of a memory of a solitary night .. nothing more.
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Well, here's how time will be saved in these 6 events.
All dash events I can save a frame or two. Nitsuja's dashing method is optimal, however there is a way to attain max speed faster that I found.
The hurdle event I presume time can be saved, but it's not a given. I can either:
-use all Boost Grabbing, which might save enough pixels to make a difference, unlikely
-do some wall clippings, unlikely
-possibly get a clancer boost off that other clancer that I'm competing against, unlikely
For the long jump, for the 2nd jump I can get a distance of 1 rather than 2, which should save some time.
Math fun, it is theoretically possible to luck manipulate the answers to either be almost all 1 digit numbers, or to have the numbers be close together. I also plan on being more entertaining here.
For ball event, there's no way to save time, but theoretically possible to match/beat the world record for number of white balls by using luck manipulation. Also, I know for certain I can be even more entertaining in this event with all the items that appear.
I'm not entirely sure what you mean, but I think the answer is Pot (I'm no druggie though). I'm guessing this is whether or not to use the pot to collect all the clancers? Hm, that's actually something to test, I know that with frame perfection it's possible to throw all those guys very fast, I just don't know if Marina can throw them far enough.
You guessed correctly. I was recently playing that level on console and tried playing both ways. I wasn't sure which would be faster in a TAS, particularly if there is a way to affect how the flower kids move.
At the time, I also realized that I strongly dislike that level.
Joined: 6/21/2004
Posts: 247
Location: New Hampshire
Boy, it's going to be hard to wait for this until it's fully done with no WIPs to comfort me. But, I am a patient man! Especially when it comes to runs of this game ;) I wish I had more to contribute in the way of helpful tips and tricks, but alas. Best of luck to you, sir.
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Yeah there's 2 WIPs. But both are now outdated, I believe for the first one I beat every single time and for the second, longer WIP only 2-3 stages aren't beaten time wise. (You can also see what times I got for world 1 on my homepage here.)
Uch, I love disconnecting as I'm trying to post. Here's what I think I had:
FreshFeeling wrote:
I wasn't sure which would be faster in a TAS, particularly if there is a way to affect how the flower kids move.
At the time, I also realized that I strongly dislike that level.
IIRC, the flower kids try to move away from you, in addition to just running around randomly. I suppose it's manipulatable, but probably not effective.
I'm right now calculating in my head the optimal path/technique for this other strat you're describing... if my memory serves me right, the valley I need to deposit the kids is kinda far away from where the last flower kid is... making it not likely... Marina can throw really fast, but not far... plus, grabbing the pot and popping the kids, and unloading them into the area can be done at superhuman speed too, plus the pot as I mentioned can help me save time as well. I just don't think it'll beat the current strat, but it's worth testing.
I love the level, but maybe that's because I don't have to play it in real time, and there's complex ways I can save time (for instance, another great application for the super ultimate trick I found). rocks to be me ^_^
Also, for those waiting, I highly recommend you watch Veysey's vids, they are A) a great watch, B) you can re familiarize yourself with the stages, C) get a good sense of the difference between speedrunning and TASing this game- it's really quite interesting, and D) to pass the time until I submit.
Joined: 8/16/2006
Posts: 24
Location: New Brunswick
I am pretty sure the kids don't move away from you opposed to cycling up the hill and running back down. If you don't do anything and just watch them, they just keep going around in circles. Although after disrupting their routine, I am unsure what what they do outside of the area you're supposed to dump them. Maybe that is what you are talking about (running away)?
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Probably. All I know is the one rare time I played this stage in real time, I grabbed the pot and started inching towards them, at which point they began avoiding me. "Oh noes, he has the pot and wants to capture me!" was the mentality I believe.
Of course, I still can't see how a non-pot strategy can be faster. That deposit valley really is kinda far away, and that pot will save time at the end. Oh! I just had another fantastic idea to save time. *Goes to scribble down in notes.
Veysey, does the in-game time run at all during text? That's what zdude's most recent memory address suggests.
I can say with a certainty that in-game time runs continuously between selecting the stage and having your time displayed. This applies to both skippable and unskipable text.
Joined: 8/16/2006
Posts: 24
Location: New Brunswick
There are special circumstances... some text you don't need to worry about while most you do. Right before I put Mischief Makers down last year, I specifically remember playing around with this. I let a text block at the end of 7 Clancer kids sit for like 3-4 minutes and still got an S grade of 4:5x.xx if I recall. I sat at the part where Leo was talking I think.
If I were to guess, I'd say that text outside of the game level doesn't add to the time? I guess Inner Struggle would be able to prove/disprove that idea. Maybe 7 Clancer Kids is just a special situation where Teran will be playable in the next level and not Marina?
Then again, talking to the kids in Rescue Act 1 either speeds Teran up, or while the text block is up time is stalled. If time DOES become stalled... I wonder if it works for Marina... I can think of quite a few levels where you might be able to abuse this.... Can you check this out? If it does work, I'll need to do 1-01 again... heh...
Edit: Alright, so I played around with it... if you are talking to someone mid level (activated by pressing L or R) you will not NOT have extra time tagged on. Talking to people on the way by will potentially save you ~ half a second no matter what character. Text forced on you does NOT add time as well. (If you sit on it and not advance). From the moment the text box STARTS to open to the point in which it is closed by the game, your level timer is stopped.
Levels like 1-01 and 1-02, you can't abuse this (luck Comicalflop... no redo :P) because the characters have some sort of animation they need to complete before you can talk to them. Clanpot Shake and The Day Before CAN abuse this though. Rescue Act 1 of course uses this. There might be others... but a quick scan through showed these levels would benefit the most.
And we welcome a new technique into the "Instruction Manual" of Mischief Makers =)
Edit AGAIN: Sorry Comical... you're going to be DEFINITELY redoing 1-02... I broke 14 seconds EASILY .... first successful run ended up being 13.98... in real time... not refined... and I can't make use of talking to the doctor like you should be able to. ~12 seconds should be quite manageable for you I'd assume O_o
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
I. Hate. You. For the last two months *I* was the one making you, Reik, and TheCape redo to use the tricks I discovered. Blarg, now I know how nitsuja feels (although nor as bad for sure.)
1-04, 1-07, and 2-01 are not hex friendly at all, which means that's 3 stages that need redoing (thankfully I can hex in the rest) but I liked how each stage was, and 1-04 I'm going to have a tough time matching my time and wormin' up I had a very good ending play around sequence. And I had JUST found a good way to do Migen's Brawl, and was hoping to have him completed today.
I seriously was just going to show this drawing I made:
Ok, rage aside, can you be a little more descriptive on what it is that I need to do in 1-02? I actually can even maybe do it in 1-01, there's a clancer right next to me at the start that I can talk to.
Like, what do I need to be doing at max speed as I talk to them? a slide jump? a normal slide? dashing? or is it only limited to when running past? Can I talk to them more than once as I go by them?
Veysey wrote:
And we welcome a new technique into the "Instruction Manual" of Mischief Makers =)
Not quite. As you're very aware, there's other tricks that I've found way before this that will go into that manual.... which are not publicly known and will have to wait until submission :-p
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
It'd look similar to this I'm assuming. I'm going to try and work out what it looks like as Marina. In-game time is my goal, so.... I really should be using it, even though I probably won't like how it looks. I'm praying that it looks cool.
Well, assuming it indeed looks like that, I think it's not bad at all. Since you aren't supposed to stop while the textbox appears, all should be fine. Too bad it only matters for the time without improving the gameplay.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Ok, I did some tests. It's going to look awesome all right.....
1-01 it doesn't work because when you first arrive at the clancer, he actually won't talk to you, he's busy looking around. After he's been on screen for a while, he'll finally start talking. Same for the first mini clancer in 1-02. This trick requires the clancer to be instantly talk-to-able when you reach them (there are 3 of them in 1-02, 1 of them is quite inaccessible.)
There is a speed trade off here. If I activate the text box, then wait, the text box will be become bigger. For every 1 frame I wait while it gets bigger, I'll save 2 in-game time units (since the bigger text screen takes longer to disappear). So, I am going to stick with real time what is speediest, by doing whatever slows me down the least as I pass by, otherwise I'd stop, and wait like 15 frames or so for the text to get really big, then proceed. So If I time things right, I shouldn't even get a 1 frame delay, and that will be my goal in performing this trick.
Rescue 1 in 4-04 I will try to abuse this trick more, since Teran moves slower.
Joined: 8/16/2006
Posts: 24
Location: New Brunswick
Im unsure if you'll be able to talk to them while sliding etc... sorry, but as of right now in 1-02, everyone I need to talk to pretty much has me go slightly out of my way. (Which is how I figure it will be beneficial to you). I'd wonder if with TAS precision if you wouldn't be able to simply touchdown, get the text box going and take off again. I can't really do that because of the odd placing of npcs that can talk to you and my inability to slide jump in extremely small areas.
Also, for a realtime run... this technique makes the run look like ass. But it DOES improve the time =/
Joined: 11/18/2006
Posts: 2426
Location: Back where I belong
EXACTLY why I like to aim for frame count, not ingame time, especially when there's no timer sitting right there in your face (at least I couldn't find one in any of Veysey's vids).
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Veysey wrote:
Im unsure if you'll be able to talk to them while sliding
My test involved doing such a thing. In fact, I have shitloads of freedom to do whatever with many of those clancers where you can walk freely as they're talking. As I said above, I can do it so that I'll barely lose any frames; I can even do a clancer boost on them as I'm doing the text trick, unfortunately this cancels the talking text and makes it disappear so I probably won't boost off clancers that I use the talk trick on.
mmbossman wrote:
EXACTLY why I like to aim for frame count, not ingame time, especially when there's no timer sitting right there in your face (at least I couldn't find one in any of Veysey's vids).
This game is very competitive and in-game oriented. The TAS is also in-game timed because of a few things:
-the day of events are faster in realtime if I aim for in-game time
-I don't have to worry about gold gems
-My efforts, and Nitsuja's efforts are all compared against one another and against the speedrunners easiest by having in-game times.
-the stages are arranged in 52 short(ish) individual stages.
You will have nothing to worry about. As I mentioned above, I have done a 100% successful text trick without losing any real time frames, and I shall be adhering to not spending lots of frames waiting in order to reduce the in-game timer further, because this is less entertaining to do so.
Edit: This trick is massively hard to do without losing time; it takes a lot of testing of different angles to approach, when to press R/L, and how to do it all at maximum speed. I have to be pretty close to the clancer to activate the text, and I also have to time it just right so that I don't slide through him, or else his text becomes cancelled. This trick is far, far harder than the clancer boosts. I spent all night on 1-02 alone, and made a tightly optimized run; even in the first half, with no text tricking I gained 2 frames from uber precision (the only thing to make it faster is to get a text trick off the other 2 talking clancers in the stage, but they are hiding behind walls and thus it wastes time to do it.) I got a time of 12.83"; my older version was 13.10". Wow.
Veysey: About the wall clippings... it seems that yes when Marina is moving at maximum speed, the affects of brushing past a corner are not as prevalent as if you were moving at a slower speed. This is easily tested by jumping up into the corner of a ceiling; if you are positioned right you'll get boosted up on the outside. Also, I have noticed many different corner boosting off sorts when I am moving at slower speeds; occassionally I will get some kind of boost through when moving at max speed, but it's rare (for instance I do this at the end in vertigo, and it will be used a lot in aster's maze.)
So, for everyone that closely watches my progress: I'm going to redo a few stages, and hex those in (to include the text trick.) A few stages I might redo for a frame or two left to be saved I suspect to exist (I saved 2 frames in 1-02). 3 stages need to be completely redone because they do not stay in synch. If all goes well, I should bounce back and be at Migen's Brawl even faster than before, since most of the stages are indeed perfect and I can just hex (I love you Halamantariel, just wanted to say that) and everything will work out. So this shouldn't be too major of a setback.
Edit Edit: While showering, I got to thinking... the text trick is like abusing lag to reduce the in-game time, and can be problematic. Do people wanna see:
-no use of it at all, because it usually adds to the number of frames and is kind of a cheap tactic to reduce the time, and seems "un-TAS like" (unfortunately, in theory my TAS times could then therefore be beaten.)
---pros: doesn't waste real time frames to reduce the in-game time; overlal movie length is not longer; no fuzzy goals
---cons: in-game times on some stages can be technically beatable
---What I'd have to do: retry minimal 2-3 stages, hex the rest, then quickly get back to Migen's Brawl where I left off.
-Use it occassionally, like I did to get 12.83" on 1-02 (problematic for the real frames vs. in-game time, aka fuzzy goals. I had one rejected run because of fuzzy goals, I don't want another one.)
---Pros: wastes few input frames, overall movie length isn't increased; the trick is "included" but not abused; entertaining without purposefully waiting for the text box to get bigger.
---Cons: fuzzy goals, "fuzzy" definition of how to use the trick (aka not abusing it to its fullest); some stages will still be slightly beatable by the in-game time; trick is massively difficult to do "on the fly"
--What I'd have to do: redo a few stages to incorporate the trick, hex the rest, then get back to Migen's where I left off after some time.
-abuse it to its fullest, by trying to find even slightly out of the way clancers to do the trick on, and waiting a few frames in order to make the text box bigger and therefore get more "time is not ticking" time to maneuver, thus reducing my times even further while degrading very slightly from the entertainment.
---pros: abuses trick to its fullest (aka no fuzziness), achieves far shorter in-game times, truer to 'fastest in-game time' goal
---cons: far more testing of how to optimally maximize waiting time to get the maximum abuse of the trick; overall movie length is greater
---what I'd have to do: redo a few stages to incorporate trick, do a lot of testing in those stages to get the absolute lowest in-game time, hex in the rest, then get back to MIgen's Brawl where I left off after a long amount of TASing.
Here's time comparisons of what I would get with each method:
1-02: 13.03(ish)" time by not abusing it at all
1-02: 12.83" by using it with now slowdown
1-02: 12.57" by abusing it with slowdown
I really, really want to know what everyone thinks. If it'd help, I can post 3 different movies all showing what each of the 3 choices looks like.
No, seriously I won't show anything until submission, and I'm steadfast in that decision. You'll all love the surprise factor so much more. You have nothing to fear, it will eventually be complete, I won't leave it unfinished, especially because the reason Nitsuja stopped is the speedrunners kept finding new strats and beating his times (at this point I'm the one that finds new stuff and they need to find ways to incorporate my findings into their runs) and I have memory watching.
As to progress wise, I just finished the Migen Sr. segment of the Migen Brawl, which is the 21st level out of 52 (most of the long stages are coming up in world 3 with the day of events. World 4 and 5 are actually shorter than world 3 is). I still have no idea how long the run itself will be in total length... 45 minutes? 50? 55? Do know that 32 minutes will be the mark for the beginning of world 3.
Ok, rage aside, can you be a little more descriptive on what it is that I need to do in 1-02? I actually can even maybe do it in 1-01, there's a clancer right next to me at the start that I can talk to.
Like, what do I need to be doing at max speed as I talk to them? a slide jump? a normal slide? dashing? or is it only limited to when running past? Can I talk to them more than once as I go by them?
