Posted: 11/17/2005 6:36 AM
Post subject: Immortal
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tool23
Player (80)
Joined: 2/8/2005
Posts: 130
The fighting system on this version is a lot different from the NES one, it seems like the only things you can do is left/right slash, which you can do just by pushing left or right, and stab, which you just push A for. Is there a way to dodge? It seems like its all about timing - one you can land a hit, if you alternate left/right at the right speed you can sit there and wail on the other guy, but he can do the same to you. i'm sure by slowing it down it's easy, but i haven't found a way at normal speed to land an early hit yet. Edit: Ok, I think pushing left/right + A makes you dodge, but i haven't gotton it working consistenly yet. It's hard to experiment when the other guy starts bashing you immediately, and once he starts he won't stop till he's tired it seems.
Posted: 11/17/2005 6:39 PM
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maTO
Skilled player (1514)
Joined: 4/28/2005
Posts: 240
Location: Finland
Sega TASer of 2009
I tried few weeks ago too. Not going to be interesting because it's mostly fighting. You take two-three hits in a battle and rest after 5 or so battles. But because it's one of those harder Genesis games it would be nice to see played 'perfectly'. I remember my friends advancing easily to a point where you were in some kind of "worm room" which was too difficult.
Projects: Warlock, Ren & Stimpy (impr) / Generations Lost (impr.)
Posted: 11/17/2005 11:27 PM
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tool23
Player (80)
Joined: 2/8/2005
Posts: 130
I don't think I'll need to rest, because the wizard guy is healed after each level. The problem will be in finding out if it's quicker to take some hits in battle. There are a lot of factors to consider : When the bad guy challenges you you can press A, which will make the battle start earlier, and you will get a first hit (stab), but then he will hit you (i haven't been able to dodge that one yet) If you don't press anything the battle will start a little later, and you can dodge his first swing, then counter-attack, but then he will hit you, which I don't know if that can be dodged or not. Another option is to dodge a few of his swings until he gets tired, then when you counter he won't be fast enough, and you can land a series of blows. But it seems like some hits are just impossible to dodge, and it seems like sometimes when you dodge you will automatically counter-attack. If anyone else has any experience with this game, let me know! Edit - level 1 - perhaps frying the second goblin is just as fast as avoiding him. the fireball is useless after that level 2 - ideally i could plant the spores and escape without having to kill the goblins, but i haven't experimented enough to know if its possible
Posted: 11/18/2005 2:49 PM
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nesrocks
He/Him
Player (247)
Joined: 5/1/2004
Posts: 4096
Location: Rio, Brazil
You sure know you can also stab to the sides. It's faster to swing your knife from left to right to left to right then direct stabbing (i think). And yea i think the way the enemy dodges is directly related to how tired both of you are. If it looks impossible to hit him at a certain point, that's probably because you're too tired and he is not tired enough. There's no way aroung it, i think the fastest battle would be to dodge enough so you can start a single killing sequence of swinging stabs untill the last one that kills him he could almost dodge, but couldn't. Unless the enemy just stands there so you have to "poke" him so he starts moving hehe.
aka Nesrocks http://www.youtube.com/user/UoBtExFODA https://nesrocks.com https://twitter.com/bitinkstudios
Posted: 11/19/2005 12:27 AM
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tool23
Player (80)
Joined: 2/8/2005
Posts: 130
testrun Here's a testrun to show the route I'm planning to take and some strategies. The fights aren't optimized, and I did it mostly at 20% speed. It's about 15 min. The part where you are on a barrel was actually easier to do at normal speed. This is going to be a hard game to optimize, because the controls are weird, and there is some randomness in the way the enemies move. So please just comment on my route and any huge mistakes that you noticed, or ways to make it more interesting. I don't get the best ending here (the one where Anna comes and rescues you), because that would require getting her ring on the magic carpet stage. I just ignore her in this run, and get rescued by a goblin in the end. Edit - some things to test: I'm not sure if the sword in level 2 actually does anything. Supposedly it increases agility, but i haven't tested it. Also, the walkthrough on gamefaqs says some of the trolls only take 2 slashes to kill, but for me its more like 5-6. Am I not doing the fighting right?
Posted: 11/19/2005 3:17 AM
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nesrocks
He/Him
Player (247)
Joined: 5/1/2004
Posts: 4096
Location: Rio, Brazil
interesting, i don't know the game much so i have only one question: was it worth to go all the way down just to get the troll paralysing bombs? i think you only took those bombs there, and you used only once.
aka Nesrocks http://www.youtube.com/user/UoBtExFODA https://nesrocks.com https://twitter.com/bitinkstudios
Posted: 11/19/2005 3:38 AM
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tool23
Player (80)
Joined: 2/8/2005
Posts: 130
Yea, I think its impossible to get by that troll without using the bombs, because he's as fast as the wizard and comes straight for him no matter where the wizard moves. but i'll test it some more
Posted: 11/19/2005 4:09 AM
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nesrocks
He/Him
Player (247)
Joined: 5/1/2004
Posts: 4096
Location: Rio, Brazil
isn't it faster to kill him by fighting? or is it gameover if he touches you?
aka Nesrocks http://www.youtube.com/user/UoBtExFODA https://nesrocks.com https://twitter.com/bitinkstudios
Posted: 11/19/2005 4:30 AM
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tool23
Player (80)
Joined: 2/8/2005
Posts: 130
good idea! ... i just went and tried to see if i could kill him, but skipping the protean ring and the bombs means i had an extra fireball to fry him with! solves that problem. the protean ring isn't used after that anyway.
Posted: 11/24/2007 10:24 PM
Post subject: Immortal, the stupid and funny game!
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Aqfaq
Editor, Expert player (2480)
Joined: 4/8/2005
Posts: 1573
Location: Gone for a year, just for varietyyyyyyyyy!!
Sega TASer of 2008 Lucky TAS of 2008
The current Immortal run can be improved by ~30 seconds. The largest improvement is avoiding the fight in the room where you use the spores. Minor optimization in movement is possible too: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1114679996/immortaltest.gmv I tested it briefly and saved more than a second in the first 30 seconds of gameplay, but the lag and menus behave strangely, so it's probably not perfect. If someone is going to do it, I'm here to help. --- Edit: I thought giving water to the goblin king was not necessary, but it actually is...
Posted: 11/25/2007 7:33 AM
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Aqfaq
Editor, Expert player (2480)
Joined: 4/8/2005
Posts: 1573
Location: Gone for a year, just for varietyyyyyyyyy!!
Sega TASer of 2008 Lucky TAS of 2008
Ok, now I found a serious improvement: It's possible to avoid fighting the giant spider by using the amulet when the spider shoots the web. It's a minor programming error. There may be other places too where the amulet can be used as a tool for sequence breaking. It should be tested everywhere and that's what I'm gonna do now. I really enjoy this game, because it's so stupid and funny. Anyone wanna join me destroying this game? I probably can't record a full movie myself. ---------------- Edit: Ok, the game can be improved by at least a minute. The most significant discovery is that when you hold the amulet, the enemies walk through you. Here are the main improvements I've found: Level 1 - Nothing new. Level 2 - Don't take the elven sword. - Use the charm spell more effectively. Only the first guard needs to be killed. - Avoid the fight in the spore room: Just use the spores and run away. - Use the amulet to bypass the remaining guard. (The spore room is the hardest part. Rest of the game should be easy.) Level 3 - Don't take the ritual knife - use amulet instead. Level 4 - Bypass the troll to avoid a fight (you don't even need to use the amulet) Level 5 - When you are shrinked, let the trolls smash you to quickly respawn in normal size. (Using death as a shortcut!) - Don't take the water (because you don't have to cure yourself). - In the next room, you don't need to kill both of the birds (because only one of them has the key). Level 6 - Avoid the spider by using the amulet! Level 7 - It may be slower to kill the guy with the normal sword, but since this is the only fight in the whole movie, getting the elven sword in level 2 would probably waste more time. - Maybe the water part can be done faster by hitting the walls for speed? Level 8 - Nothing new. I think I have the best possible route on my mind now. If someone wants to, I can give instructions room by room.
Posted: 11/25/2007 3:48 PM
Post subject: Surprising deaths and chaotic menu behavior!
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Aqfaq
Editor, Expert player (2480)
Joined: 4/8/2005
Posts: 1573
Location: Gone for a year, just for varietyyyyyyyyy!!
Sega TASer of 2008 Lucky TAS of 2008
Sorry for the triple post, but here's something very cool: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/38977554/lv1immortal2deaths.gmv Level 1 now has two deaths and is many hundred frames faster that way. When you die, you respawn at the "previous room". This can be abused to get past some locked doors etc. You can die 2 times in each level, if you want/need to. This is great news, because all the different death animations are one of the features that make this game special in the first place. The only thing that baffles me now is the menus! I can't understand how they work! Sometimes they just work faster than other times without any logical reason! I've never seen anything like this before.
Posted: 11/25/2007 5:00 PM
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plusminus
Player (64)
Joined: 11/2/2007
Posts: 100
Location: Toronto, Canada
Wow Aqfaq, those are some great finds. I don't know that I can be of much help, I'll take a look at the menus though. It might be just a case of lag, or something similar.
Posted: 11/25/2007 5:11 PM
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Aqfaq
Editor, Expert player (2480)
Joined: 4/8/2005
Posts: 1573
Location: Gone for a year, just for varietyyyyyyyyy!!
Sega TASer of 2008 Lucky TAS of 2008
Thank you very much plusminus! If you or anyone can find a theory for doing the menus optimally, then we've got everything we need.
Posted: 11/25/2007 6:20 PM
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plusminus
Player (64)
Joined: 11/2/2007
Posts: 100
Location: Toronto, Canada
By menus do you just mean the inventory screen, or something more like the dialog boxes? It's been ages since I've played this game...
Posted: 11/25/2007 8:06 PM
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Aqfaq
Editor, Expert player (2480)
Joined: 4/8/2005
Posts: 1573
Location: Gone for a year, just for varietyyyyyyyyy!!
Sega TASer of 2008 Lucky TAS of 2008
Oh, by menus I mean the dialog boxes too and everything related to text. They all behave strangely. Well, I tested the full route now and the movie got 1 minute shorter than the current published one, even though I did not optimize my movements at all. I suppose 10:40 is possible. Maybe some more deaths could be added to save time? (There are "only" four.) http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/877639397/immortalfulltest.gmv This is the best route I know at the moment (and probably the best known Immortal route on Earth). Now, who wants to record it with some precision? :)
Posted: 11/25/2007 11:18 PM
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Cardboard
Skilled player (1606)
Joined: 6/11/2006
Posts: 818
Location: Arboga, Sweden
NES TAS of 2008 Rookie of 2007 GBx TASer of 2007
http://slowbeef.com/immortal/ That might help. Possibly. Not. But I am trying to be useful.
Warp wrote:
omg lol this is so fake!!!1 the nes cant produce music like this!
Posted: 12/5/2007 6:43 PM
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plusminus
Player (64)
Joined: 11/2/2007
Posts: 100
Location: Toronto, Canada
I played with this a bit but I gave up on it. This game drives me batty. Are the menus that inconsistent in the current published run?
Posted: 12/5/2007 8:21 PM
Post subject: Immortal 2 - TASers 0
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Aqfaq
Editor, Expert player (2480)
Joined: 4/8/2005
Posts: 1573
Location: Gone for a year, just for varietyyyyyyyyy!!
Sega TASer of 2008 Lucky TAS of 2008
plusminus wrote:
Are the menus that inconsistent in the current published run?
I think the current movie wastes a few seconds in the menus, because of these strange fluctuations. This can't possibly be a tremendously difficult problem. Afterall, they are just menus, right? Menus with bad attitude.