Joined: 5/2/2006
Posts: 1020
Location: Boulder, CO
you can tell because he is a right, master hand is a left!
one thing I like better is that the character balance is way, way better then before. not to say there arnt still good/bad characters, but the vast majority are in the middle, playable but not too good range.
Also, wii online is laggy enough I dont think I am going to play it again. Probably the fault of my shitty connection, but what the hey.
Joined: 3/13/2004
Posts: 1118
Location: Kansai, JAPAN
Bumping an older thread here, but I just recently got into Brawl. I like it a lot, even though I have to play mostly by myself. The online is OK, although the time difference between Japan and EST makes it very hard to catch my friends.
As far as the connection goes, I know mine is super strong, but the online play still feels a little "looser" than when I play by myself. That is, I find it harder to stop running or pick up items as smoothly - my inputs are always a little delayed. Only occasionally does the game truly "lag," and I'm pretty sure that was due to something with my friends' wireless connection.
I'm forced to use a wired connection due to heavy wireless interference in my apartment complex. I've noticed that my friends on wireless connections lag like hell (sometimes unplayably so) while those who invested on the LAN adaptor are pretty solid to match with. Not that this surprises me, because I have never and likely will never be impressed with wifi.
He does? I'd say he's gotten worse. Sure, his new downsmash is great (although its range and speed is still horrible), his new downthrow is excellent (although you can roll away before he can hit you), and taunting when getting that juicy #9 is kickass, but the loss of his best aerial (the parachute) and it getting replaced by a barely usable splashing-thingie hurt his edgeguarding, KO'ing and antiair abilities, losing the board (the downtilt) made his ground game suffer (it got crappy knockback now, and it doesn't feed straight into his (previously) great nair or, if you're feeling lucky, a judgement #9), and the improved recovery is hardly enough to push him above those flaws. He's still great fun to play, though.
Guess I should've split that paragraph into more parts.
Actually his Down-smash has a big hunk of invisible range, and it's not even that slow. It's fast enough to the point where you can D-throw into it if your opponent doesn't tech.
His D-throw leads to guarenteed combos on an opponent that doesn't tech as I said. You can Jab and regrab, you can D-tilt, I think you can even use Judgement. If they do tech, at least you can try to chase him down for another grab. Btw the throw also can spike if you grab someone next to the edge.
And the Parachute SUCKED in Melee. G&W's new N-air is actually a lot better than his old one. http://brawlcentral.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=75&t=17313
His D-tilt is also better than it was in Melee contrary to popular belief. The hitbox is HUGE. I mean ridiculously huge, and the completely horizontal knockback can gimp some recoveries if you ledgeguard with this. Either way it's HUGE.
Also, he's THE best character in the game at juggling for several reasons like his amazing Up-B, his improved U-air, and also his B-air breaks shields.
Topping that is the fact his kill options are just plain overpowered. This includes his improved Down-B, which has huge collecting range, and gets shitloads of 1HKOs (yes, kills at 0% so many times).
Oh, and his shield FINALLY COVERS HIM.
Trust me he's easily the 3rd best character or so in the game. Everyone down at SWF agrees he's awesome. The only two characters that truly rival him at this point are Metaknight and Snake. G&W has like no real weaknesses in Brawl. He's got crazy priority, amazing recovery, great combos, great approaches, and great kill options.
Btw, keep in mind G&W was the 5th WORST character back in Melee.
Actually his Down-smash has a big hunk of invisible range, and it's not even that slow. It's fast enough to the point where you can D-throw into it if your opponent doesn't tech.
His D-throw leads to guarenteed combos on an opponent that doesn't tech as I said. You can Jab and regrab, you can D-tilt, I think you can even use Judgement. If they do tech, at least you can try to chase him down for another grab. Btw the throw also can spike if you grab someone next to the edge.
Hitting after a d-throw is a big guess, and guessing wrong leads to you losing all momentum. It's hardly all that big a factor.
What? It was a gigantic disjointed hitbox that lasted years. The fair had a short sweetspot then a long cooldown which was weak as hell. The nair never lost its power. Jump out, activate it and fall on your opponent. It's a lovely edgeguard.
(ALSO: I laughed at that regardless of your statement at the end, half of the posts in the thread are "too long, didn't read" but they praise you instead of bash. Mindless yes-saying is always better then being negative!)
His D-tilt is also better than it was in Melee contrary to popular belief. The hitbox is HUGE. I mean ridiculously huge, and the completely horizontal knockback can gimp some recoveries if you ledgeguard with this. Either way it's HUGE.
You can't edgeguard in Brawl.
And, essentially, "a bit more range" weighs up for every good thing the D-tilt had in Melee but lost in Brawl?
Also, he's THE best character in the game at juggling for several reasons like his amazing Up-B, his improved U-air, and also his B-air breaks shields.
He's still slow though, which is kinda important for chasing your opponent while juggling them.
Topping that is the fact his kill options are just plain overpowered. This includes his improved Down-B, which has huge collecting range, and gets shitloads of 1HKOs (yes, kills at 0% so many times).
People use the slow, strong energy projectiles when G&W got time to catch them now?
I sure wish Roy was still in the game, Flareblade would be the best attack in the game again.
Oh, and his shield FINALLY COVERS HIM.
Woo and yay.
Trust me he's easily the 3rd best character or so in the game. Everyone down at SWF agrees he's awesome. The only two characters that truly rival him at this point are Metaknight and Snake. G&W has like no real weaknesses in Brawl. He's got crazy priority, amazing recovery, great combos, great approaches, and great kill options.
People argue that EVERY character is "THE BEST THE BEST THE BEST" or "OMG HORRIBLE I LOST TO A LEVEL 1 CPU WORST CHARACTER EVER" on SWF. It's hardly a solid argument.
And several people got huge disjointed hitboxes now, everyone except Venosaur and Olimar got ridicolous recovery, there are no combos in Brawl, approach, I don't know, and well, sure, he's always had that.
Joined: 8/1/2004
Posts: 2687
Location: Seattle, WA
Apparently Ganondorf can't beat anyone ever and Snake is the best possible choice? Falco is at a disadvantage to G&W? In my house, a person with Ganondorf has a decent chance of taking home most of the KOs in a stock match, especially against the likes of Bowser or Dedede. Falco and Wolf tend to run the house, and it seems really unlikely that G&W would be able to overtake either of them...
I wonder what the basis is for half of this. I doubt it's based on anything entirely supportable.
I wonder what the basis is for half of this. I doubt it's based on anything entirely supportable.
Agreed. If I matched up computer oppenents all the time, this may have some leverage... but playing as a human, well, it all depends on the playing style. In Melee, my friend raped with Roy. I raped with Marth but sucked with Roy. Clearly Roy is better?
adelikat wrote:
I very much agree with this post.
Bobmario511 wrote:
Forget party hats, Christmas tree hats all the way man.
Joined: 5/2/2006
Posts: 1020
Location: Boulder, CO
The trouble is, basing it on computers would only tell you about how well the AI plays characters. The AI does not do some of the tricks needed to make snake and diddy strong, so it would produce no useful data.
It is a chart that totally ignores play style and skill, and ignores the fact that some characters play better on some maps then others.
The assumption is that everyone plays the same way, and that all matches must be played on the same stage. Only furthering the observation that smash boards is populated by "professionals" who assume that everyone plays the same way they do, and impressionable idiots.
Joined: 11/11/2006
Posts: 1235
Location: United Kingdom
RT-55J wrote:
Here's an interesting match-up chart for those who are interested.
In SSBM, I played as one of two people; Captain Falcon, or Ganondorf. I refuse to believe that the characters I'm a master at are complete fodder in Brawl.
<adelikat> I am annoyed at my irc statements ending up in forums & sigs
In SSBM, I played as one of two people; Captain Falcon, or Ganondorf. I refuse to believe that the characters I'm a master at are complete fodder in Brawl.
*snicker*
Zurreco wrote:
Apparently Ganondorf can't beat anyone ever and Snake is the best possible choice? Falco is at a disadvantage to G&W? In my house, a person with Ganondorf has a decent chance of taking home most of the KOs in a stock match, especially against the likes of Bowser or Dedede. Falco and Wolf tend to run the house, and it seems really unlikely that G&W would be able to overtake either of them...
I wonder what the basis is for half of this. I doubt it's based on anything entirely supportable.
Being at a disadvantage doesn't mean you can't win. Being at an advantage doesn't mean you will win. Still, though, Ganondorf undoubtably got a lot less to work with then Snake or Pit. Speed has always been the superior stat in Smash, and Ganon is slower then ever in Brawl.
Smash has also always had rather skewed tiers. Samus, Link and Donkey Kong had nothing against Fox, Pikachu or Kirby (unless it was Isai playing Link). Pichu, Mewtwo and Kirby is inferior in evey aspect to Sheik or Falco. It hardly comes as a surprise that Brawl, with an even larger roster then Melee, had an immense gap between the best and the worst. And that Ganon belongs in one category and Snake in the other seems pretty likely.
But I agree with that the matchup chart seems iffy: I nearly doubt that every matchup in Brawl even has been played.
Hitting after a d-throw is a big guess, and guessing wrong leads to you losing all momentum. It's hardly all that big a factor.
It's really big if you're opponent can't reliably tech, so you can IMMEDIATELY D-smash most characters, or D-tilt, Jab -> regrab, etc. And guessing wrong doesn't hurt you AT ALL. Guessing right SCREWS your opponent if you land something big like a U-smash.
Besides, the D-throw can do the Fox D-throw spike. Situational, but win. Especially if you counterpick Skyworld.
What? It was a gigantic disjointed hitbox that lasted years. The fair had a short sweetspot then a long cooldown which was weak as hell. The nair never lost its power. Jump out, activate it and fall on your opponent. It's a lovely edgeguard.
I'll explain again. You couldn't spam the parachute, because the startup leaves you really open. That also made the Parachute difficult to combo into, so in Brawl that would have sucked massively because you wouldn't be able to land this move at all. For the same reasons, characters like R.O.B. can't directly score KOs despite having tons of range because all of his kill options are very easy to read.
The F-air is like way better undeniably because YOU CAN L-CANCEL IT. Also in Melee, diminishing returns only affects the damage of attacks, so there was no disadvantage to using the F-air in Melee. In Brawl you can't L-cancel, but G&W's DI is so insane you can weave away from people so they can't punish it. If you don't diminish it, it is one of the best killing aerial attacks in Brawl, which is HUGE.
You can't edgeguard in Brawl.
Yes you can actually. If your opponent misses the ledge by recovering too close to it, the D-tilt pushes them away. Also characters like Snake and Sonic can't do much about it.
You are better off ledgeguarding with aerial attacks usually, which G&W is one of the best characters at doing because of his amazing Up-B, but the D-tilt at least is big enough to occasionally deter people from the ledge.
And, essentially, "a bit more range" weighs up for every good thing the D-tilt had in Melee but lost in Brawl?
Yes it does. It as much range as Ike's sword, and it's ten times faster. Most characters cannot get past it, and this goes particularly for Olimar who would otherwise be one of G&W's harder matchups due to being hard to approach. Because it is so huge you can also deflect projectiles with it.
He's still slow though, which is kinda important for chasing your opponent while juggling them.
Wow, you're so wrong. G&W is like one of the fastest characters in Brawl overall.
His running speed is above average (which is faster than Mario, Bowser, Ivysaur, R.O.B. and someone else's running speed who I forgot). He has like the 4th best or so DI in the game. His Up-B lets him chase people vertically better than anyone else. He's super strong without the horrible lag Ike suffers, in fact he has like almost no ending lag on aerials except for the F-air.
People use the slow, strong energy projectiles when G&W got time to catch them now?
I sure wish Roy was still in the game, Flareblade would be the best attack in the game again.
Okay, so you're telling me you completely didn't know that G&W has these ridiculously good Smash attacks with amazing IASA frames? A forward Smash uncharged will kill Mario at 98% on FD. That is really freaking good if anything, and it's a lot faster than that super slow shit that Ike and Dedede use. G&W also has the 3rd strongest U-smash in the game, which can't be punished easily due to its IASA frames, and because he can techchase into it it's amazing. Not to mention the D-smash which is one of the best in the game.
The fact that G&W has the Bucket makes him the most fearsome opponent against anyone that uses energy projectiles, and that's a shitload of characters, and many of those characters are very good in Brawl but will easily fall to this guy. Say Pikachu, Zelda, Falco, even King Dedede and his Waddle Doos and Up-B stars.
Woo and yay.
Better yet, did you know that G&W can't be chaingrabbed by DDD?
People argue that EVERY character is "THE BEST THE BEST THE BEST" or "OMG HORRIBLE I LOST TO A LEVEL 1 CPU WORST CHARACTER EVER" on SWF. It's hardly a solid argument.
Many top professionals at SWF agree G&W is one of the best characters in Brawl. You can't really argue against that.
And several people got huge disjointed hitboxes now, everyone except Venosaur and Olimar got ridicolous recovery, there are no combos in Brawl, approach, I don't know, and well, sure, he's always had that.
G&W still outranges the majority of the cast. The people that outrange him do so in a significantly slower manner. No, not everyone has ridiculous recovery. Many recoveries are still very easy to gimp in Brawl with well timed ledgeguarding, and the ability to recover goes hand in hand with the ability to ledgeguard (the better you are at one, the better you are at the other). Combos do exist in Brawl, what are you smoking? That's been proven a long time ago, it's just combos are rarer. And no, most characters suck at approaching in Brawl due to the incredibly defense-oriented engine. G&W is one of few characters that is actually GOOD at approaching because he has tons of shit that is safe on block.
Joined: 8/1/2004
Posts: 2687
Location: Seattle, WA
Neophos wrote:
Being at a disadvantage doesn't mean you can't win. Being at an advantage doesn't mean you will win. Still, though, Ganondorf undoubtably got a lot less to work with then Snake or Pit. Speed has always been the superior stat in Smash, and Ganon is slower then ever in Brawl.
Right, but the whole idea behind the chart is still flawed. You can't for sure say that one character is at a disadvantage to another because you can't account for play styles, skill, or priority manipulation.
While I agree that speed is important, the heavy hitters in Brawl are getting a lot of love lately. Aren't Dedede and Ike some of the most used/victorious characters in competitions lately?
DDD yeah. Ike no. Ike sucks because his recovery is kinda bad, or at least easily gimped by characters that are high up on the tiers like Snake, and he gets outcamped easily.
DDD has great projectiles and a chaingrab though.
Right, but the whole idea behind the chart is still flawed. You can't for sure say that one character is at a disadvantage to another because you can't account for play styles, skill, or priority manipulation.
I don't know about how this one in particular is set-up, but it's usually based on statistics. Marth rules everyone in the air, so someone that's dependant on aerial battling (say, Melee Ganon or Puff) suffers from not being able to use their best traits to full effect. And playing any of them land-based is enough to gimp them to make the batte lopsided, even if it's your "style".
It does account for skill - Being better then your opponent means you can win even being at a disadvantage. Just because you are at a disadvantage doesn't mean you can't by being better - I doubt black won every game of Go before the 5.5 point bonus was invented. And at the same time, being better AND having the advantage in character means you got a way better chance of winning.
And priority doesn't exist. Hard to manipulate something that isn't there.
While I agree that speed is important, the heavy hitters in Brawl are getting a lot of love lately. Aren't Dedede and Ike some of the most used/victorious characters in competitions lately?
Has there even been competitions on the big scale? As far as I've seen (of course, being european and hated by Nintendo, it skews the vision a bit), Brawl hasn't exactly had a FC yet - The biggest competitions are online tournaments filled with (regardless of their own beliefs) not-all-that-good players.
Azzomg - I'm sure G&W is better then he was in Melee (it'd be hard not to) and I'll agree with that you'd probably know more about it then me - I haven't exactly played the Melee characters much in Brawl (the new ones are just way more entertaining).
Just a few points - That your opponent can't tech or recover properly (especially with Brawl's homing grab-the-ledge-two-miles-away system) isn't a good point to make - Anyone at tournament level will tech every time he wants to from an attack as obvious as G&W's downthrow, and they won't make a mistake like missing a sweetspot.
Did they upgrade his bucket between the games? Because in Melee, it was way too weak with anything short of three fully charged blasts from Samus or Mewtwo to be worth the bother, and the attack slow and obvious enough for no one to get hit by it except by being majorly outplayed - In which case anything would've hit them.
And... IASA?
And priority doesn't exist. Hard to manipulate something that isn't there.
Priority only exists for projectiles and ground based attacks. In the air, it's all about the size and duration of your hitboxes.
Azzomg - I'm sure G&W is better then he was in Melee (it'd be hard not to) and I'll agree with that you'd probably know more about it then me - I haven't exactly played the Melee characters much in Brawl (the new ones are just way more entertaining).
No problem man, I spend too much time on Smash. XD
Just a few points - That your opponent can't tech or recover properly (especially with Brawl's homing grab-the-ledge-two-miles-away system) isn't a good point to make - Anyone at tournament level will tech every time he wants to from an attack as obvious as G&W's downthrow, and they won't make a mistake like missing a sweetspot.
Yeah, I guess. I'll point something else out though. People don't use G&W's U-throw enough, and G&W is like the best juggler in Brawl thanks to his broken U-air which completely limits people to DIing off of the stage or air dodging if he does it right.
Did they upgrade his bucket between the games? Because in Melee, it was way too weak with anything short of three fully charged blasts from Samus or Mewtwo to be worth the bother, and the attack slow and obvious enough for no one to get hit by it except by being majorly outplayed - In which case anything would've hit them.
Yes, the Bucket is way better in Brawl. The collecting range is ridiculously huge. You can Bucket stuff that is way above, below, or behind you. Fox lasers get you a KO at about 60%. D-throw Techchasing into a Spill is godly. Pair up G&W with Zelda and turn on friendly fire, you get a team combination that is broken because Din's Fire gives 1HKO Buckets (yep, kills at 0% ftw. Watch this vid too. The guys playing kinda were a little Oil Panic greedy, but it was ownage. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48cDctKCOm8 ).
And... IASA?
Interruptible As Soon As frames are a feature that has existed since Melee if I recall. Take Marth's D-tilt, you can repeatedly use the attack before the entire animation ends. It has an IASA window that starts on frame 20, so while it takes about twice as long for the entire attack to end, you can use 3 D-tilts in one second (Marth can also interrupt his D-tilt with other attacks too if I recall). Also in Melee, this was noticeable on G&W because he could spam Smash attacks without ever leaving the attack stance.
This works just the same in Brawl on various things. Ganondorf has many IASA frames on like his U-smash, Jab, and F-tilt that actually make him usable in Brawl. G&W has the same stuff on his attacks like he did in Melee which owns. Marth still has his D-tilt, yeah. I think when you take knockback, there are also IASA frames for air dodging out of knockback before you can perform other actions. All in all IASA frames are not quite the same as having low lag attacks, but are really nice options for working around the lag of attacks.
Joined: 5/2/2006
Posts: 1020
Location: Boulder, CO
Or would tournament results tell you what characters the better players chose to play?
The bottom line is that discussing what characters are "good" in brawl is pointless, because better players will win games, even if their choice isn't top "tier".
Remember that the people who make charts like that are the exact type of people who will spend more time analyzing the game then actually practicing and getting good. You will even see posts every now and again by one of them lamenting a loss to someone who chose a "bad" character and beat them.
Priority only exists for projectiles and ground based attacks. In the air, it's all about the size and duration of your hitboxes.
As far as I know, Street Fighter 3 is currently the only game with actualy priority. Smash has always been about hitboxes (like most games). If that's changed in Brawl, then excuse my ignorance.
Yes, the Bucket is way better in Brawl. The collecting range is ridiculously huge. You can Bucket stuff that is way above, below, or behind you. Fox lasers get you a KO at about 60%. D-throw Techchasing into a Spill is godly. Pair up G&W with Zelda and turn on friendly fire, you get a team combination that is broken because Din's Fire gives 1HKO Buckets (yep, kills at 0% ftw. Watch this vid too. The guys playing kinda were a little Oil Panic greedy, but it was ownage. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48cDctKCOm8 ).
What the...
Quite a power boost.
Interruptible As Soon As frames are a feature that has existed since Melee if I recall. Take Marth's D-tilt, you can repeatedly use the attack before the entire animation ends. It has an IASA window that starts on frame 20, so while it takes about twice as long for the entire attack to end, you can use 3 D-tilts in one second (Marth can also interrupt his D-tilt with other attacks too if I recall). Also in Melee, this was noticeable on G&W because he could spam Smash attacks without ever leaving the attack stance.
This works just the same in Brawl on various things. Ganondorf has many IASA frames on like his U-smash, Jab, and F-tilt that actually make him usable in Brawl. G&W has the same stuff on his attacks like he did in Melee which owns. Marth still has his D-tilt, yeah. I think when you take knockback, there are also IASA frames for air dodging out of knockback before you can perform other actions. All in all IASA frames are not quite the same as having low lag attacks, but are really nice options for working around the lag of attacks.
Oh yeah, that thing. Never heard it have a common name, seen everything between "fake lag" to "visual stuttering". Bowser and G&W had loads of it back in Melee.
Twelvepack wrote:
Or would tournament results tell you what characters the better players chose to play?
The bottom line is that discussing what characters are "good" in brawl is pointless, because better players will win games, even if their choice isn't top "tier".
Remember that the people who make charts like that are the exact type of people who will spend more time analyzing the game then actually practicing and getting good. You will even see posts every now and again by one of them lamenting a loss to someone who chose a "bad" character and beat them.
Mostly both.
The tier lists are influenced heavily by what characters are currently kicking ass in tournaments. The best example of this would be Marth going from high tier to top tier during Ken's 40 tournament winning streak with him.
SWF makes their tier lists from a simple voting process of people admitted into the Smash Back Room, which is split pretty much equally between theory fighters, tournament players and people who bought their way in.
Joined: 5/2/2006
Posts: 1020
Location: Boulder, CO
Justification bias. The tiers are based on what wins tournaments, and the tournaments are populated by people who read the charts (at least somewhat). It makes the tiers look right even when they are wrong.
As far as I know, Street Fighter 3 is currently the only game with actualy priority. Smash has always been about hitboxes (like most games). If that's changed in Brawl, then excuse my ignorance.
If I recall, there is some trend that determines whether attacks on the ground clank or if one overrides another. Projectile priority there are cases where some projectiles get destroyed or not by whatever attacks. When an aerial attack is used, attacks never clank. That's what I vaguely remember.
All in all IASA frames are not quite the same as having low lag attacks, but are really nice options for working around the lag of attacks.[/quote]
The bottom line is that discussing what characters are "good" in brawl is pointless, because better players will win games, even if their choice isn't top "tier".
Yeah. That was almost completely true in Melee. Not so much in Brawl which is less balanced despite the efforts to remove 0 to death combos (when ironically new ones came about that were just more character specific. <<).
G&W actually isn't placing quite as well in tourneys as I think he should be. I think part of the reason is because the top level players we know of are all jumping onto Snake and MK, so there are more scrubs like me jumping onto G&W in comparison (I'm not actually a tourney player see?).
But oh well I can't really argue against the fact MK and Snake are the top two. MK is too fast, too good at approaching, kills at much lower percents than he should, has no trouble with diminishing returns, and is extremely good at gimping with many attacks with horizontal knockback. Snake on the other hand is the complete antithesis of MK, as he has the best defensive game with grenades, tilts with as much disjointed range as Marth's sword if not more, and tons of ways to control the opponent's movement.
The guy who gets 3rd place is debatable right now but I lean towards G&W hehe.
Justification bias. The tiers are based on what wins tournaments, and the tournaments are populated by people who read the charts (at least somewhat). It makes the tiers look right even when they are wrong.
I'd rather think of tiers as something like a self fulfilling prophecy. If more people play the character its meta game will be better developed, making it a better choice amongst new players, as they can profit from all the ones who developed its meta game further. Picking lower tiers has the advantage that your moves will be more unexpected, which will often throw off unexperienced players who pick top tier characters quite easily.
The concept of tiers trusts in the fact that the top players will also try to pick less popular characters, win with them and thus making them more popular, so that tier lists should get more accurate for any game over time.
If I recall, there is some trend that determines whether attacks on the ground clank or if one overrides another. Projectile priority there are cases where some projectiles get destroyed or not by whatever attacks. When an aerial attack is used, attacks never clank. That's what I vaguely remember.
(All Melee, I got no idea about Brawl) Nope, just hitboxes. Falco's phantasm just as often clashed as got mauled by Marth's forwardsmash, all depending on timing. Of course, disjointed hitboxes never could trade, only clash at worst, so they naturally seemed to have more priority.
Some projectiles can cancel or "eat" other projectiles without diffusing, but solid projectiles were treated exactly the same way as physical attacks (Samus' blast and Mewtwo's ball were counted as solid in how their hitboxes interacted, but energy by Magnet). With timing, you could hit most solid projectiles to destroy them (best results achieved with disjointed hitboxes; Else, expect pain). True energy projectiles (PK Flash, blasters, Kirby's wave) acted differently and weirdly.
But, in the end, no such thing as "A always beats B because it has more priority". Only "A most often beats B because it got a giant hitbox, is invincible and has cooler animation". This is unlike Third Strike, where supers > everything and specials > normals, all the time (it's also the reason Chun Li is top tier, because for some bizarre reason, several of her normals count as specials).
The bottom line is that discussing what characters are "good" in brawl is pointless, because better players will win games, even if their choice isn't top "tier".
Yeah. That was almost completely true in Melee. Not so much in Brawl which is less balanced despite the efforts to remove 0 to death combos (when ironically new ones came about that were just more character specific. <<).[/quote]
Wait, what?
Just picking Fox over Samus gave you a large advantage. Picking Falcon or lower nearly guaranteed you wouldn't get over 7th place. Melee is probably one of the most extreme examples of "PICK THIS CHARACTER OR LOSE" games, just beneath Marvel vs Capcom 2.
Better players will win against bad players, yes. Better players won't win against good players. Tier difference in Melee could easy make up for being a notch beneath in skill. No idea on how it is in Brawl, but it's safe to say that picking Snake seems to make stuff a good bit easier then picking Samus.
