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Tub wrote:
meh, I'd do the same, and I'm not finnish.
I think it was discussed here before (Ask Bisqwit thread?): generally, Finns are socially shy and they seem to prefer silence and solitude to noise and large amounts of people gathered in one place. That's why the urge to minimize questions is normal to expect from them. Russians, however, usually seem to ask the prices even if they're listed right under their noses, or not pay any attention to them at all until the check-out.
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Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
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Tub wrote:
Might be out of habit, because over here shops are required by law to list prices. A shop trying to hide their prices would seem suspicious to me.
Yeah, I think the law is the same in Finland in that regard. Today diary so far: -- I woke up early and planned to go get a ticket for that Conan O'Brien thing, but I arrived 10 minutes late at 9:08 am and there were no available tickets anymore. Better luck tomorrow! -- Then I went to Best Buy and returned that memory card I last mentioned buying yesterday; I said it's defective, and they took it back, no questions asked, VISA refunded. At least that part was good about them. -- Finally I had remembered to take the passport with me so I went to a bank to exchange some EUR for USD. I tried Citibank and Chase. Both had crappy rates, 1.49 USD per EUR (it should be around 1.57) (and they took a $5 of handling fee), but seems I had no choices, so I took that. So much for the theory that it's cheaper to purchase local money with foreign money than to purchase foreign money with local money. Never again will I deal with either bank. (It was a challenge by itself to find a bank that even does foreign exchanges; most banks outright said they don't do that.) -- Asteron had kindly invited me to Google for lunch! I met him at Google and had lunch with him. He also showed the Google office around for me, playing rooms and all. It was very nice meeting him, though I was less than verbose a companion to talk with. Damned us Finns :) The only bad thing (besides spilling a glass full of ginger ale) was that I had planned to take some Finnish chocolate for him as souvenir, but I forgot to bring it with me from the hotel. Too bad. Well, the next Tasvideos person to meet me will have it :) (I also have salmiak candies for the adventurous!)
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moozooh wrote:
Bisqwit wrote:
At Best Buy, I bought a 1 GB MiniSD card […] ($27) It's actually a MicroSD card with an adaptor.
Doesn't sound like a "best buy" to me, lol. Out of curiosity, how much does the same kind of card cost in Finland? Cause I know I can (and did) get 4 GB for the same price here in Moscow quite easily.
I don't know about MiniSDs or MicroSDs. Regular SDs are quite cheap, around 7-10 euros for 1 GB. Actually now that I searched, I found a Finnish webstore where one can get a 1 GB MiniSD for 10 euros ($15).
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moozooh wrote:
Doesn't sound like a "best buy" to me, lol. Out of curiosity, how much does the same kind of card cost in Finland? Cause I know I can (and did) get 4 GB for the same price here in Moscow quite easily.
The about electronics retail stores in North America is that you will get a terrible deal from them. Here is a random example using microSD cards in Canada: Online $14 for 2GB (Note certain online sites have sales too) Boxstore sale for $29.99 regular 48.99 Note: I used Futureshop because apparently BestBuy Canada doesn't seem to carry the popular brands of SD cards on it's online store. However, Futureshop is owned by BestBuy, and prices tend to be pretty even between the stores. Now, it's possible that is just a sale price that will last forever (that tends to happen at the boxstore's online store here for some reason), but even with that sale price it's more than twice the price than online. For the smaller 'mom & pop' stores prices tend to be more inline with the online stores, but the average person just goes the the boxstore out of ignorance so they tend to die out... As for the currency exchange thing. Yeah... that does suck, normally it's that the banks use figures from a few weeks ago rather than current ones. Though I guess maybe in the States they just take a larger cut for themselves? Not sure there.
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Hey Bisqwit. It was fun meeting you :) It's definitely surreal to put a face on the various avatars I am used to dealing with. Good luck on getting the Conan tickets. If there are any other peeps here in NYC we should have another get together :)
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Today diary... -- Smartened from yesterday, I went to the NBC rainbow room entrance at 8.30 am waiting for a ticket to Conan O'Brien's Late Night Show filming; they would start giving those tickets out at 9.00 am. However, at 8.30 am there was already a line with 90 people before me, and they would only give 75 tickets. Another no-win situation. ---- I also overheard that of those 75, probably only the 30 or 40 first have actual chance of getting in at 4.00 pm. The first ones arrived at 5.30 am. If I want to still pursue this, I should probably go queuing at 7.00 am tomorrow... Maybe I'll just give up. Yes, Finns have been showing up noticeably often at Conan's audience, but not all Finns visiting NYC are that desperate to get there. If they don't want us, then that'll they get. -- Then I strolled through the Central Park from south to north (last time, I stropped the same distance from north to south, but most of it on the Fifth Avenue instead of in the park). In the process, I got minor sunburns in my shoulders and arms. -- Later at the evening, I checked out the WTC construction site. It looks pretty much like any construction site; the only sign of that it was not planned to be like that is the great effort by which traffic, including pedestrian traffic, is redirected around the block, and the number of securitymen around the perimeter. -- I bought a camera. Recalling reading someone's writing that one should buy those stuff from little stores instead of the big ones, because the big ones have twice the prices of their Internet prices but the little ones have reasonable prices, I went to a little store. However, I was somewhat unprepared for the way they deal business. I'll describe it like this. ---- They don't have any prices listed. Instead, you tell what you want to buy, and they tell the price. ---- After you agree to have made a purchase decision, the price suddenly inflates by a factor of ~200% because they invent various taxes and stuff. At that point, you are supposed to start bargaining to get the price down. However, I was somewhat unprepared for this process so I didn't get the price much down (only $20 from their initial offer) and didn't get the gear in my brain running that would have made me calculate exactly what kind of "tax" they were applying. Nevertheless, the price is not considerably less than or greater than that which it would have been in Finland, so I'm not complete unhappy. Just mostly. ---- They also tried to make me buy a 1 GB memory card for the camera. Their memory card box contained a whopping $119.90 price tag. Their initial offer was $59. After I refused numerous times, the price had dropped to $39, but it was still way too high for even be in the realm of possible purchases. And they drove me through the guilt trip for not purchasing it even though they cut open that box and all. -- I also checked out Brooklyn, just so that my entire perception of New York is not made only about Manhattan. ---- I only checked a few blocks, so it's hardly a balanced opinion, but the impression I got that it's more busy than Manhattan, and more youthful. Curiously, on one of those streets, literally every second shop offered sneakers. As in, they explicitly advertised doing that in particular. More observations about NYC in general: -- Women have big tits. This may sound weird coming from me, but really, compared to Europeans, women in NYC have bigger tits. Though in all fairness, they have larger asses too. Nevertheless, even though I'm not a person to stare at women's breasts (in fact, I'm less interested of that particular section in woman anatomy than an average male is), I can't help but be unsettled when I notice a young (black) woman whose chest around the breasts is literally twice as big as it's 15 cm down from that section. I wonder how she manages her life. She must be stared at a lot. -- [EDIT 2008-07-20]: {placeholder for more observations I had in mind but can't remember right now} I remember now. Emergency vehicles here sound really weird. They don't produce a continuous biibaa/biiubiiubiiu signal, but instead, they sound like this: "biuuu. bauuu! baupoubiuuuuu. biuuu! biubauuuuu." and so on. With occassional uses of a nasty sounding horn.
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Bisqwit wrote:
---- They don't have any prices listed. Instead, you tell what you want to buy, and they tell the price. ---- After you agree to have made a purchase decision, the price suddenly inflates by a factor of ~200% because they invent various taxes and stuff. At that point, you are supposed to start bargaining to get the price down. However, I was somewhat unprepared for this process so I didn't get the price much down (only $20 from their initial offer) and didn't get the gear in my brain running that would have made me calculate exactly what kind of "tax" they were applying. Nevertheless, the price is not considerably less than or greater than that which it would have been in Finland, so I'm not complete unhappy. Just mostly.
Wow. How absurd. Here (other side of the country, much smaller city), prices are usually listed next to the item. Of course, taxes do kick in (usually 8% here, so $100 becomes $108) but it's just something normal. But arguing over price? What a mess NYC must be.
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Bisqwit wrote:
-- I bought a camera. Recalling reading someone's writing that one should buy those stuff from little stores instead of the big ones, because the big ones have twice the prices of their Internet prices but the little ones have reasonable prices, I went to a little store. However, I was somewhat unprepared for the way they deal business. I'll describe it like this. ---- They don't have any prices listed. Instead, you tell what you want to buy, and they tell the price. ---- After you agree to have made a purchase decision, the price suddenly inflates by a factor of ~200% because they invent various taxes and stuff. At that point, you are supposed to start bargaining to get the price down. However, I was somewhat unprepared for this process so I didn't get the price much down (only $20 from their initial offer) and didn't get the gear in my brain running that would have made me calculate exactly what kind of "tax" they were applying. Nevertheless, the price is not considerably less than or greater than that which it would have been in Finland, so I'm not complete unhappy. Just mostly.
That's the thing. With these little stores, you can find generally higher quality products, and more variety than, say, Best Buy. However, you never really know if you're getting a good deal, or the owner/whatever is trying to rip you off (and, as you experienced, they'll try to throw in tons of other stuff). With somewhere like Best Buy, your choice is much more limited, but the number on the price tag is what you pay, and there's generally no messing around. Also, if they offer you something else to go with it, as soon as you reply negatively they can't really ask you again or push you to get it.
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Xkeeper wrote:
Of course, taxes do kick in (usually 8% here, so $100 becomes $108) but it's just something normal.
In Finland, taxes are always included in the price, unless you represent a company or you are purchasing from a dealer that primarily deals with companies and entrepeneurers. In fact, most people don't even need to know what the value added tax (i.e. sales tax) percentage is. The amount of tax you paid is mentioned in the receipt, but you don't need to care, unless you bought something that can be reduced from your own income tax.
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Err, sorry to have caused you grief with the camera Bisqwit. Reading what I typed out again it could have been clear. I should have said that it's possible to get a better deal at smaller shops because the owners tend to be much more flexible and customer friendly. They are often willing to spend some time and make a deal, rather than just having the sticker price in stone. HOWEVER, your mileage will vary on this from location to location and owner to owner. Giving a best offer for something like a TV at a smaller store isn't overly rare, but there is still normally a price listed in some form. It's not normally full on haggling. Doing something like doubling the price by adding a bunch of taxes on an item which had no price makes it sound like he was trying to take advantage of you for being a tourist... Again, i'm very sorry about the whole thing.
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Today, I slacked off and mostly just sat in the Central Park reading a book in a shadowy place. It was actually a not overly hot day (a perfect Finnish summer day), but the sun is still shining from almost the zenith, and it can burn pretty quickly if you stay in the same spot for a long time. I also found out that in the Central Park there's a free WLAN where outstandingly SSH is allowed. Most "free WLANs" I have ever come across outright block any traffic that is not HTTP, and even the HTTP traffic is redirected to some registration page until you register. So a pleasant surprise overall. -- Yesterday when I visited Brooklyn, I went by the A and 2 trains. Today, I went there again, and I came back with the Q train. Surprisingly, that train surfaced in the daylight, crossing the Brooklyn river through a bridge instead of tunneling below it. -- I went to the Times Square Church. I actually messed up a bit: I only remembered that it is on the Times Square, so I came from the subway to the 42nd street. After 15 minutes of wandering, I finally found it at the 49th street (where I had already been a couple of times earlier the past few days). It was really crowded at the Times Square at 7pm. ---- I was a bit disappointed. I was expecting a good old church service for adults, but instead, there was some youth session with lots of praise songs and some multimedia. Another case of "misunderstanding" I guess. The schedule on the wall outside the church doesn't exactly make clear which ones of the 7pm events for Friday are happening on which Fridays; are they all, or what. Miscellaneous notes: -- I have yet to see a single "goth" style dressed person or an "manga" style dressed person. You see plenty of those in Helsinki. -- I noticed that for the little thinking I do here, I do it almost all in English here. More often than not though, I don't think in any particular language, but I may suddenly stop to think of the pronounciation of some particular word which wakes me up to notice the language aspect. Smell. I have been thinking for a long time to write something of the smell. -- The first few days I were here, I recognized some weird scent; it seemed to me as if every single person in New York uses the same deodorant brand, because it was smelling everywhere. Later, I came to realize that it's my own deodorant, which is completely defeated by my excess sweating, and flows everywhere and delivers its smell to the air. -- However, today it was a day where I didn't sweat almost at all, so I came to notice more smells I had previously ignored. Indeed, there seems to be some kind of pervasive smell about New York. I am yet to find out what to compare it to. It may be a mixture of a myriad of various things; such as decomposing trash. ---- It was actually a surprise to me seeing people take their trash out to streets! Indeed, in New York, it looks like people put their trash in a plastic bag, and just place it on the street right in front of their house. The garbage trucks will collect them from the streets. Yuck.
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Bisqwit wrote:
-- I have yet to see a single "goth" style dressed person or an "manga" style dressed person. You see plenty of those in Helsinki.
It wouldn't suprise me if this is due to a certain response people have here... anything not normal is shunned. This attitude disappates somewhat, but it's still very pervasive.
-- It was actually a surprise to me seeing people take their trash out to streets! Indeed, in New York, it looks like people put their trash in a plastic bag, and just place it on the street right in front of their house. The garbage trucks will collect them from the streets. Yuck.
That is how it is most places. Some areas (e.g., Spokane, Washington) require special containers, but most of the time it is still done by setting it onto the sidewalk. There just doesn't seem to be a better way that it can be done for most people...
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In Finnish cities, every building has a designated garbage area; more often than not it is a separate shed where large garbage containers are placed; those garbage containers are of standard type that contain wheels so they can be moved around by the garbage truck staff, and they can be lifted and folded by the mechanism in the back of the garbage truck, even though they are heavy and contain dozens of trash bags. They are usually emptied every few days, maybe even once a week, and they contain the garbage produced by the households of the entire building. The garbage containers also shield the environment from the smells of the garbage within them. Nowadays, the shed is usually locked (so as to avoid small children from entering there getting accidentally rat-poisoned, and to prevent other buildings' people using it). The garbage truck services are usually ordered by the housing company, I suppose. They also provide the staff with the keys and instructions for getting to the containers in the shed.
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Oh. Our apartment complex has those, but it seems to be limited mostly to businesses/apartment complexes. For single houses, it's usually just "set trash out every x days". I suppose it isn't much different after all.
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Bisqwit wrote:
---- They don't have any prices listed. Instead, you tell what you want to buy, and they tell the price. ---- After you agree to have made a purchase decision, the price suddenly inflates by a factor of ~200% because they invent various taxes and stuff. At that point, you are supposed to start bargaining to get the price down. However, I was somewhat unprepared for this process so I didn't get the price much down (only $20 from their initial offer) and didn't get the gear in my brain running that would have made me calculate exactly what kind of "tax" they were applying. Nevertheless, the price is not considerably less than or greater than that which it would have been in Finland, so I'm not complete unhappy. Just mostly. ---- They also tried to make me buy a 1 GB memory card for the camera. Their memory card box contained a whopping $119.90 price tag. Their initial offer was $59. After I refused numerous times, the price had dropped to $39, but it was still way too high for even be in the realm of possible purchases. And they drove me through the guilt trip for not purchasing it even though they cut open that box and all.
All of those would be completely unacceptable and probably even illegal in Finland. I understand that kind of commerce in places like China or Thailand, but the US?
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Bisqwit wrote:
---- They don't have any prices listed. Instead, you tell what you want to buy, and they tell the price. ---- After you agree to have made a purchase decision, the price suddenly inflates by a factor of ~200% because they invent various taxes and stuff. At that point, you are supposed to start bargaining to get the price down. However, I was somewhat unprepared for this process so I didn't get the price much down (only $20 from their initial offer) and didn't get the gear in my brain running that would have made me calculate exactly what kind of "tax" they were applying. Nevertheless, the price is not considerably less than or greater than that which it would have been in Finland, so I'm not complete unhappy. Just mostly.
This sounds like it might have been a pawn shop -- a place where people sell their used goods for money, and other people buy things at an attempt to get cheap prices. I'd guess he realized Bisqwit was a foreigner who wouldn't know what a reasonable price was in the US, and decided to raise the price. I've heard that all shops in Mexico do the same. Though, if it was selling goods that appeared to be new, then it sounds like something pretty suspicious was going on...
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upthorn wrote:
Though, if it was selling goods that appeared to be new, then it sounds like something pretty suspicious was going on...
The stuff indeed seems brand new for what I can tell. For the record, those who want to avoid that place, the address is 1632 Broadway, called Digital Depot. Even more suspiciously, the receipt says "all sales final - no refunds - no refund on layaway deposits - exchanges within 7 days"
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upthorn wrote:
I've heard that all shops in Mexico do the same.
Only in Tijuana, Rosarito, and Cabo San Lucas. Even then, only certain merchants will act this way (think flea markets or sidewalk salesmen).
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Bisqwit wrote:
upthorn wrote:
Though, if it was selling goods that appeared to be new, then it sounds like something pretty suspicious was going on...
The stuff indeed seems brand new for what I can tell. For the record, those who want to avoid that place, the address is 1632 Broadway, called Digital Depot. Even more suspiciously, the receipt says "all sales final - no refunds - no refund on layaway deposits - exchanges within 7 days"
I really hate to say this, but you may have accidentally chosen a particularly bad store. Really; this kind of thing has happened to me on several occasions.
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mr_roberts_z wrote:
I hate to say this, but you may have accidentally chosen a particularly bad store.
Ok. Bad luck. But it is good to know that not all salesmen in NYC are like that. Any other purchases I have made so far have been entirely good in all aspects (the MicroSD wasn't, but they let me refund it so it was good; the currency exchange at Chase was not good). Today I was about to buy four LR6 batteries in Radioshack for a total price of $3.99. However, the clerk suggested a better deal: sixteen batteries for $10. That's what I like. (Plus tax.) (Then again, it is a little suspicious that the Ah rating is not given for these batteries.) (For the record, the average price for four LR6 batteries in Finland would be around 5 €, incl. tax.)
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mr_roberts_z wrote:
I really hate to say this, but you may have accidentally chosen a particularly bad store.
This kind of saddens me. People are using internet to tell everyone they've been ripped off, but fail to use it to choose and/or inquire the prices of potentially expensive purchases. Even more ironically, they unsuspectfully make the purchase first, and look it up only afterwards. :\
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Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
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Today miscellaneous comments: -- Why are all children playgrounds here, including schoolyards, surrounded by high metal grid fences? -- I wonder if those "ice cold water!" street entrepeuners pay any taxes. There's suspiciously many of them. People lugging some makeshift cold storage wherefrom they sell ~0.4l water bottles for $1 each. Some of them sell Gatorade instead. -- Speaking of which, Gatorade and other drinks normally expensive in Finland in general seem very cheap around here. ---- The bottle sizes are big too. I bought a 2.5l bottle of ginger ale for $1.13 yesterday. -- "No trespassing" signs abound. Weird. -- In was in Bronx today. It's the first time I noticed signs of anything recycling related in the NYC. And I noticed plenty of it. -- I was also in Chinatown today. What's so China about it? The architecture is exactly as bland as in everywhere in the NYC. Only the people seem to be Chinese! One would expect to see pagodas, but there were none to be found.
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Bisqwit wrote:
Today miscellaneous comments: -- Why are all children playgrounds here, including schoolyards, surrounded by high metal grid fences?
To deter child kidnappers and other criminals.
-- I wonder if those "ice cold water!" street entrepeuners pay any taxes. There's suspiciously many of them. People lugging some makeshift cold storage wherefrom they sell ~0.4l water bottles for $1 each. Some of them sell Gatorade instead. -- Speaking of which, Gatorade and other drinks normally expensive in Finland in general seem very cheap around here. ---- The bottle sizes are big too. I bought a 2.5l bottle of ginger ale for $1.13 yesterday.
$1 is about the normal price. I doubt the street vendors even report their sales at all.
-- "No trespassing" signs abound. Weird.
It's to deter crime.
-- In was in Bronx today. It's the first time I noticed signs of anything recycling related in the NYC. And I noticed plenty of it.
We're big on recycling and eco-friendliness. It's a new trend over here, trying to reduce global warming.
-- I was also in Chinatown today. What's so China about it? The architecture is exactly as bland as in everywhere in the NYC. Only the people seem to be Chinese! One would expect to see pagodas, but there were none to be found.
It's called Chinatown because many, many Chinese immigrants live around there.
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Apo123 wrote:
-- In was in Bronx today. It's the first time I noticed signs of anything recycling related in the NYC. And I noticed plenty of it.
We're big on recycling and eco-friendliness. It's a new trend over here, trying to reduce global warming.
"We're" as in The Bronx is? Because that's the only place where I have seen any signs of recycling.
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Today I visited a Baptist Church at Convent Avenue. It was nice. I also explored the Chinatown a bit more, and went seeing the Statue of Liberty. However, I had trouble figuring out where to buy ferry tickets, and I satisfied with just photographing the statue from the Manhattan island. On my way back to the South Ferry subway station, I found a ticket vendor but I didn't care anymore. Miscellaneous notes: -- Somehow, every single white American boy of certain age looks like the boy from Home Alone to me. Younger ones than that look like Dennis [the menace]. -- For my next travel here (if ever), I think I'll need a compass. When I exit a subway station I haven't explored before, I am still getting lost, without exception. I just can't figure out which direction corresponds to which direction on the map, without walking at least a block to see which way the street/avenue numbers grow. And if they aren't numbered, I won't find out even that. Luckily, there are subway stations everywhere, so I can just go walking in a random direction without worrying about my bearings, and see whatever interesting comes across. When I want to return, I just continue walking and see whenever I can spot a subway station. ---- Speaking of subway stations, I found it funny that at Times Square, which is full of blinking banners and lights and video screens, even the "subway" sign is animated with flashing lights. Everywhere else, they are just painted signs on black metal.
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