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Joined: 5/19/2008
Posts: 12
I say Mega Punch since it has more PP. Mega Punch is strong enough to OHKO with critical hits. Lucky Egg will help you level up faster so you can do more damage on everyone. And definitely Quick Claw because your rival's pokemon the second time you fight the E4 are in the 70s, so no way Blastoise would be faster.
The kombucha mushroom people... Sitting around all day...
N._Harmonik
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Joined: 8/27/2006
Posts: 502
Location: Canada
Come on, kirbymuncher, have mercy on us! Where did you go? On a side note, I wonder if the fossilized Pokemon will get sent to your PC automatically when you receive them?
Why, oh, why do I even <i>try</i> to understand my own species?
Player (36)
Joined: 10/8/2006
Posts: 284
Ack, the computer with the rom on it died and had to have a memory wipe, and I forgot totally about the run I was planning to do. If anyone feels like doing it, they can, but I'll probably continue it eventually. Sorry.
Joined: 5/19/2008
Posts: 12
Um, I can try to do the speed run (since I made a list and all that). I've never recorded anything on an emulator... so, if anyone is willing to have me PM a bunch of n00b questions at them, let me know. :)
The kombucha mushroom people... Sitting around all day...
arflech
He/Him
Joined: 5/3/2008
Posts: 1120
c02y wrote:
Um, I can try to do the speed run (since I made a list and all that). I've never recorded anything on an emulator... so, if anyone is willing to have me PM a bunch of n00b questions at them, let me know. :)
Here's some stuff I picked up from rummaging through the forums... This site has all of the best emulators for creating TASes and playing back the existing ones (VisualBoyAdvance 1.7.2 v19.3 is recommended): Raiscan's BlueToaster Emulation. You can also find encoders (if you want to make an AVI of your work) and some tools to further assist your speedrun, courtesy of the expert coders at this forum. The main tasvideos site (accessible from the graphic at the upper-left of the forum) has a useful FAQ, and among the pages that may help you are: A specification of the VBM input-file format used by VisualBoyAdvance How to do important routine tasks in the major TAS emulators Opening a ROM (image file containing game data from the Read-Only Memory chip used in the cartridge): File>Open ROM Replaying a VBM file, after loading the corresponding ROM: Tools>Play>Start playing There are 10 slots for savestates (images of the contents of the emulated RAM). Save state: Shift+F1 to F9. Load state: F1 to F9. Out-of-order loading is supported. Of course the big question is how recording is resumed, and Bisqwit's* FAQ explains this well too:
The general case is that in order to resume recording, load the ROM, pause emulation, play back the movie that exists so far then load your current savestate. If you happen to accidentally erase your savestates for any strange reasons, play the movie and when you reach the point where you want to resume recording, pause emulation, create a save state and load it soon after. P.S. If you don't pause emulation before playing the movie, be sure to load the saved state before the movie is done playing. If the state is loaded after the movie is done playing, it will load the state, but will not resume recording. That means to resume recording from the very end of a movie, you must pause the emulator right before the movie ends, then save and load, then unpause. Also, you must be playing the movie back in non-read-only mode or it will rewind instead of recording.
Alternative method for VisualBoyAdvance: Play the movie back, get to the point where you'd like to resume recording, and select Tools>Play>Continue recording from here. If that option is disabled, select Tools>Play>Read-only mode first to enable it. Slowing down the movie: - lowers the speed. + raises the speed. Can configure in Tools>Customize... Frame Advance (preferred over merely slowing down): Pause with Pause or Ctrl P. Press \ or Ctrl N to advance to next frame. (Or configure it in the Tools>Customize... menu.) Supports holding for multiple frame advances. Generally, you hold the button(s) you want pressed the next frame, and then tap the frame advance button. Frame Count: Press the . key. Can configure in Tools>Customize... Input Display: Press the , key. Can configure in Tools>Customize... Autofire (mostly obsoleted by frame advance): Press Alt 1 to Alt 0 to autofire different buttons. Alt ~ clears all autofired buttons. Can configure in Tools>Customize... Some emulators (such as VBA, Gens, and Nitsuja's modified Snes9x) also support similar hotkeys called "auto-hold", which simply hold down a key (or multiple keys) for you. This is useful if your keyboard can only register a limited number of keypresses at once, or if you don't want to manually press down the "run" button for hours on end, and is especially helpful for making 1-person-controls-2-players runs. Fast-Forward: Press the Tab key. Can configure in Tools>Customize... *Well okay, Bisqwit merely owns the site, while he is just one of the many people who edit the wiki, and basically all of the power-players on the forum have contributed to the FAQ.
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Joined: 8/8/2008
Posts: 14
c02y wrote:
I say Mega Punch since it has more PP. Mega Punch is strong enough to OHKO with critical hits. Lucky Egg will help you level up faster so you can do more damage on everyone. And definitely Quick Claw because your rival's pokemon the second time you fight the E4 are in the 70s, so no way Blastoise would be faster.
With the lucky egg, you're going to be a high enough level to where you should be faster than their pokemon. Remember, I got a level 65 Blastoise without the lucky egg...now imagine the combination of lucky egg thru over half of the game, plus candies...you should be between 80-85 if I were to guess right...making you faster than the E4 round 2 pokes without the picking up or use (and text box) of quick claw. EDIT: I want this tested...let me know all the trainers you fight for reference in a segmented non TAS run, if you could please.
Chamale
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Player (182)
Joined: 10/20/2006
Posts: 1355
Location: Canada
But with all the leveling up sounds, and the time it takes for the experience bar to move, is it possible the lucky egg could be slower?
Joined: 8/8/2008
Posts: 14
Chamale wrote:
But with all the leveling up sounds, and the time it takes for the experience bar to move, is it possible the lucky egg could be slower?
Shouldn't be...you can massively speed up the exp bar if you hit the button at the right time, and it only takes a split second to exit from the stats minimenu that pops up. The word boosted before exp each fight is probably the slowest thing that'll happen, and it is going to cost you like 5-10 seconds thru the run...at the gain of many many more (any battles that you cannot critical hit OHKO without lucky egg experience...gyarados, for example)
Joined: 8/8/2008
Posts: 14
The run is up over at SDA. Check it out if you're so inclined. http://speeddemosarchive.com/PokemonFireLeaf.html
Joined: 5/19/2008
Posts: 12
hey, finally started something with the TAS. Played up to Blaine but it's late and I just started messin around. So I'm not posting my time. :P Questions about the list I should get out of the way: --Why aren't you stone evolving more pokemon? Though catching a pkmn and the whole evolution animation are both roughly 30 seconds, most of the stone evolving pokemon are either: a) out of the way of a time efficient path b) in the water. We're not fishing, takes too long c) in the safari zone, and we want to avoid going inside pkmn centers as much as possible. --No in-gametrades? The in-game trade pokemon would be in my PC and I wanna avoid the PC. I could keep Spearow in my party for the beginning (to trade for Farfetch'd), but I want room for Sandshrew and Abra, so Spearow is going to end up being sent to the PC in the end. --$500 Magikarp ftw? I want to avoid pokemon centers --Eevee in Celedon? I have to stray off course, which I don't need to do if I stick with the list. Anyways, updated list based on what I played: Updated Oct 16, 6:55 pm PST -Pallete Town- 1. Squirtle -Route 1- 2. Pidgey -Viridian Forest- 3. Pikachu -Route 3- don't look -Mt. Moon- 4. Clefairy 5. Clefable (via moonstone) -Route 4- 6. Sandshrew 7. Wartortle (should be evolved by now) Sandshrew doesn't have a quickclaw in FR/LG. WHYYYYYYY??? -Route 24/25- 8. Abra (gonna use teleport after Lt. Surge battle) 9. Weedle 10. Kakuna 11. Caterpie 12. Metapod When searching here, you go into the patch of grass closest to the hiker. Then do that "safari zone trick" where you press the directional pad back forward to get the RNG going. -Route 6- 13. Bellsprout 14. Meowth -Route 9- 15. Voltorb 16. Spearow -Rock Tunnel- ::1st/2nd floor:: 17. Machop 18. Zubat 19. Geodude 20. Onix :: 3rd floor :: repel -Route 8- none -Pokemon Tower- 21. Ghastly 22. Cubone 23. Haunter 24. Blastoise (from Wartortle) -Cycling Road- 25. Snorlax When you get to Fuchsia City, go to your PC real quick and deposit Clefable -Safari Zone- :: Entrance/Center:: 26. Chansey (with Lucky Egg) 27. Pinsir 28. Venonat :: Area 1:: 29. Exeggcute 30. Paras 31. Parasect 32. Nidoran M 33. Nidorino 34. Nidoran F 35. Nidorina 36. Doduo 37. Kangaskhan :: Area 2:: 38. Rhyhorn 39. Venomoth 40. Tauros -Route 21- 41. Tentacool 42. Tentacruel -Cinnabar Mansion- 43. Vulpix 44. Koffing 45. Grimer 46. Muk 47. Ratata 48. Raticate 49. Ditto (on second floor) Gamefreak moved Magmar from the mansion to Mt. Ember. Clever... -Island 3 forest area- 50. Slowpoke 51. Drowzee 52. Hypno 53. Weepinbell 54. Pidgeotto -Silph Co.- 55. Lapras -the route before victory road- 56. Fearow -Victory Road- 57. Graveler 58. Machoke 59. Marrowak 60. Golbat ----------------------------- Does anyone know a good way to manipulate catch rates besides resetting over and over hoping you catch a pokemon? That would really help this run. thanks! Also, Lucky Egg may not make a difference in this run as long as you have Quick Claw and X-item yourself. Assuming you're level 70 vs. Rival's level 70 pokemon, you can X-item/crit hit people. may possibly be faster to do this do to amount of text?
The kombucha mushroom people... Sitting around all day...
Joined: 5/19/2008
Posts: 12
Sorry for the double post. Just an update for people to ponder about. I got to the first round of the E4 with Blastoise lvl 55 I think? In the end he was 59. Then doing the Sevii Island quest, I only leveled up 3 times. So I go fight E4 a second time with my level 62. Blastoise!! The E4 is eassssssssyyy!!! One X-item and then crit hit them all. Your Rival, however, is all in your face and he thinks he's all gangsta, word, dawg, etc. He will take the most luck manipulation. Luckily, he starts out with Heracross and abuses Megahorn (which has 80% acc.). Two x-Items, then you crit hit all of Rival's pkmn. End :EDIT - 10/19: Forget what I said before. After rethinking it, Lucky egg would be faster. By a couple seconds I think, but still faster!! Though, getting a lucky egg without using action replay codes is a pain. :P
The kombucha mushroom people... Sitting around all day...
Joined: 11/11/2007
Posts: 242
Location: the 1950s
c02y wrote:
Sorry for the double post. Just an update for people to ponder about. I got to the first round of the E4 with Blastoise lvl 55 I think? In the end he was 59. Then doing the Sevii Island quest, I only leveled up 3 times. So I go fight E4 a second time with my level 62. Blastoise!! The E4 is eassssssssyyy!!! One X-item and then crit hit them all. Your Rival, however, is all in your face and he thinks he's all gangsta, word, dawg, etc. He will take the most luck manipulation. Luckily, he starts out with Heracross and abuses Megahorn (which has 80% acc.). Two x-Items, then you crit hit all of Rival's pkmn. End :EDIT - 10/19: Forget what I said before. After rethinking it, Lucky egg would be faster. By a couple seconds I think, but still faster!! Though, getting a lucky egg without using action replay codes is a pain. :P
Don't Chanseys have a chance of holding a lucky egg?
Currently working on: -Possibly the Wily Tower (Mega Man the Wily Wars)
Joined: 5/19/2008
Posts: 12
yes. it's why it's a pain. :P
The kombucha mushroom people... Sitting around all day...
Joined: 6/27/2007
Posts: 137
Location: Germany
Hmm... I watch currently the new Run from speeddemosarchive (5:16 http://dl.speeddemosarchive.com/demo.pl?PokemonFireRed_E4R2_SS_516) Wondering if the TAS is still active?
Joined: 8/8/2008
Posts: 14
It is my understanding that the guy who was going to do it abandoned the project. Is someone else willing to step up to the task?
Active player (279)
Joined: 4/30/2009
Posts: 791
I've been doing some experimenting in FR lately, and I believe I can manage this TAS. First thing is that the ID/SID is set when you choose your character's name, which means the starting Pokemon's IVs can be manipulated at this point. However, FRLG has a random seed each time you start up, so it will be relatively tricky to manipulate a good starter, but not impossible. Second thing is that wild encounters are impossible to manipulate away, unlike RSE. It appears that after each battle ends, the number of steps before a wild encounter is determined, and once you reach the threshold of steps through grass, an encounter occurs. I do not know if it is possible to change the number of steps though. This will mean that, even in a TAS, Repels will need to be used in some places (like caves, and some grassy areas). On the upside, it seems critical hits are a simple matter of just hitting the correct frame. So the battles themselves will go by just as fast as in the Sapphire TAS. In order to get the 60 Pokemon needed for the National Dex and the Rainbow Pass, there will have to be a fair bit of planning. I know UD has a list from his real-time run, so that will give me a good basis. Rare Candies are few and far between, so I will be relying on Pick Up (via Meowth) ability (5% chance) to get more. It should save time having to capture more wild Pokemon at least, and I will have to aim for getting those that are 1-2 levels away from evolving. Which means I will have to learn how to manipulate Rare Candy, possibly find out how to extend my step count through grass (if possible), and perhaps even learn how to manipulate starter IVs to get the best I can. There are some people at Smogon looking into the IV generation side of things, so I can possibly get some insight there. All in all, this will be a big project, and I am not yet ready to manage it, but I am definitely willing to work on it soon! Once the IV generation side is more understood I should be able to get started at least.
N._Harmonik
She/Her
Joined: 8/27/2006
Posts: 502
Location: Canada
Toothache wrote:
I've been doing some experimenting in FR lately, and I believe I can manage this TAS. First thing is that the ID/SID is set when you choose your character's name, which means the starting Pokemon's IVs can be manipulated at this point. However, FRLG has a random seed each time you start up, so it will be relatively tricky to manipulate a good starter, but not impossible. Second thing is that wild encounters are impossible to manipulate away, unlike RSE. It appears that after each battle ends, the number of steps before a wild encounter is determined, and once you reach the threshold of steps through grass, an encounter occurs. I do not know if it is possible to change the number of steps though. This will mean that, even in a TAS, Repels will need to be used in some places (like caves, and some grassy areas). On the upside, it seems critical hits are a simple matter of just hitting the correct frame. So the battles themselves will go by just as fast as in the Sapphire TAS. In order to get the 60 Pokemon needed for the National Dex and the Rainbow Pass, there will have to be a fair bit of planning. I know UD has a list from his real-time run, so that will give me a good basis. Rare Candies are few and far between, so I will be relying on Pick Up (via Meowth) ability (5% chance) to get more. It should save time having to capture more wild Pokemon at least, and I will have to aim for getting those that are 1-2 levels away from evolving. Which means I will have to learn how to manipulate Rare Candy, possibly find out how to extend my step count through grass (if possible), and perhaps even learn how to manipulate starter IVs to get the best I can. There are some people at Smogon looking into the IV generation side of things, so I can possibly get some insight there. All in all, this will be a big project, and I am not yet ready to manage it, but I am definitely willing to work on it soon! Once the IV generation side is more understood I should be able to get started at least.
You can also get rid of tall grass by using Cut. It might be worth it to use it instead of wasting a repel sometimes. On the other hand, with inevitable encounters, you could take advantage of them by catching the Pokémon you encounter to help you get the Rainbow Pass. Don't forget about the seven hidden Rare Candies at Cerulean City, Route 6, Route 9, Route 17, Route 12, Pokémon Mansion and Cape Brink. I hope somebody decides to do HGSS too...
Why, oh, why do I even <i>try</i> to understand my own species?
Active player (279)
Joined: 4/30/2009
Posts: 791
Getting rid of grass using Cut is probably a waste of time, because the step counter only changes when you are stepping INTO a patch of grass. When you leave the grass it doesn't advance, so if you cut away one square where an encounter will occur, it will just happen on the very next square.
Active player (279)
Joined: 4/30/2009
Posts: 791
Wild encounter manipulation is doing my head in. I am no closer to finding out how they work than I was a week ago. One thing of particular concern is that there appears to be no change in RAM when you change direction in grass, yet you can still trigger a wild encounter this way. Long story short - help! I need someone with familiarity with RPG internals to help find how wild encounters work better, and hopefully if there is any way to manipulate them. A free Rare Candy to anyone who helps!
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Joined: 9/17/2009
Posts: 4986
Location: ̶C̶a̶n̶a̶d̶a̶ "Kanatah"
Toothache wrote:
Wild encounter manipulation is doing my head in. I am no closer to finding out how they work than I was a week ago. One thing of particular concern is that there appears to be no change in RAM when you change direction in grass, yet you can still trigger a wild encounter this way. Long story short - help! I need someone with familiarity with RPG internals to help find how wild encounters work better, and hopefully if there is any way to manipulate them. A free Rare Candy to anyone who helps!
Wow, what wierd timing. I was reading on a forum post about Leafgreen/Firered encounter RNG just moments ago. I hope you can find it useful for your run. You can view it here.
Active player (279)
Joined: 4/30/2009
Posts: 791
Lol if you notice carefully, I've posted quite a few times in that thread alone. And I'm a mod at Smogon so I'm well aware of the efforts they are going through to understand FRLG better. But thanks for the suggestion :-)
Active player (279)
Joined: 4/30/2009
Posts: 791
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gBkheUj8KE Small update. I knew about the seed generation already, but here's a video demonstrating when it occurs. I can give you precise frame timing for it (since the seed is set when the cutscene fades, not when you press start at Charizard/Venusaur). Seed generation moves at 256 Hz
GoddessMaria
She/Her
Reviewer, Experienced player (868)
Joined: 5/29/2009
Posts: 519
Location: Hell...
Interesting.. Maybe I should take a look at which seed provides the better results...
Current projects: failing at life
Editor, Expert player (2081)
Joined: 6/15/2005
Posts: 3284
I'm late to the party, I guess. I have done some studying of how the RNG in this game works. It seems that, in addition to the normal RNG used in battles that is similar to Ruby/Sapphire/Emerald, there is a second RNG used only to determine wild encounters. The normal RNG ("RNG 1", address 0x3005000 for U version, 0x3004FA0 for J version), if you remember, uses the formula:
val <- val*0x41C64E6D + 0x6073
The second RNG ("RNG 2", address 0x20386D0 for U version, 0x203861C for J version), uses this formula:
val <- val*0x41C64E6D + 0x3039
In addition, RNG 2 only ever advances if you step in grass/cave/water. This verifies pretty much what everyone is saying about encounters. RNG 2 is seeded in a strange way. This occurs right after the Charizard screen clears in the intro. First, RNG 1 is seeded with the 16-bit entropy address 0x4000104. Then RNG 1 is advanced twice. Then the top half of RNG 1 is used to seed RNG 2, which is thereafter used in the game. Note that RNG 1 is seeded again at the naming screen, so the first seeding of RNG 1 is only used to seed RNG 2, and nothing else. I can't really clarify the entropy address (it is very sensitive to timing and even moving around the naming screen), so it may have to come down to trial and error. What I do know is that, from running some C++ programs, I found that there are a few RNG 1 seeds that generate RNG 2 seeds with as few as 3 encounters within 74 advances of RNG 2. (I pulled the number 74 from an estimated minimum number of advances before you reach Pewter City and get Repel.) There are some things that delay the advancing of RNG 2, but it seems only to be the first 6 grassy steps after a battle or when entering a new area. By the way, the encounter rate in grass is 21.5%. If top half of RNG 2 mod 1600 is less than 344, you get an encounter. I used the debugger VBA-SDL-H to help with my analysis. It wasn't too hard for me; just - find RNG 1 and 2's addresses, - construct a scenario, with help of Lua scripts to analyze, where their behavior is interesting, - reconstruct the scenario in official VBA (because savestates are compatible with VBA-SDL-H), - set a read/write breakpoint on them in VBA-SDL-H, and - disassemble away. Of course, having a lot of context helps. I don't have to examine all the opcodes to do a verification; I just need a clue to the likely formulas. Once I have that, the analysis takes care of itself.
Editor, Expert player (2081)
Joined: 6/15/2005
Posts: 3284
Here is a combination script I made for 3rd generation Pokemon games: http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?wdcglc1sddk36qq It has the following functionality: * You can specify the game. Games supported are Ruby/Sapphire U, Emerald U, Fire Red U, Ruby/Sapphire J, Emerald J (partially), Fire Red J. * There are 3 main modes, player Pokemon stats, enemy Pokemon stats, and RNG stuff. The first key, "9", switches between these modes. * Player Pokemon stats and enemy Pokemon stats lists things like stats, IVs, EVs, and how nature affects the stats (either "+" or "-"). The keys "7" and "8" switch between Pokemon in the party. Due to a bug, Pokemon numbers 7 and 8 are available even though they are meaningless. Only Pokemon numbers 1-6 are intended. * RNG stuff consists of some RNG data in my earlier script, as well as a graphical RNG table. This part of the script looks at future RNG values and colors in the squares corresponding to desired values (such as for critical hits). The arrow points to the square in the upper left corner corresponding to the current RNG value. * Currently supported are tables for critical hit, 95% miss, 90% miss, and Quick Claw, with each one having both a multiple-of-2 background shading, and a multiple-of-3 background shading (this is because in Pokemon Fire Red, some areas scroll 2 RNG values per frame in battle, and some other areas scroll 3 RNG values per frame in battle. * One can switch between tables using the keys "7" and "8". Note that critical hit tables have different coloring of critical hits corresponding to the amount of damage inflicted. That functionality only has meaning for multiple-of-3 mode. I've mostly been using this for a Fire Red hack. But it works for other games too. It could still be improved, though.
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