Post by Samsara

Posted: 9/16/2006 1:06 PM

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Saturn

Player (209)

Joined: 2/18/2005
Posts: 1451

Thanks for the hints Catastrophe. I'm not sure if I will ever TAS this game but if I do I will probably pick the non Enbu Pike route and try to manipulate luck to get best possible damage of the weaker weapon in this time which I think shouldn't delay that part by more than 2 min that are required to get Enbu Pike. Unfortunately I won't be able to find time TASing it this - and probably next year so it would be great if somebody else with enough Terranigma knowledge would do it by his own in that time.

See my perfect 100% movie-walkthroughs of the best RPG games on http://www.freewebs.com/saturnsmovies/index.htm Current TAS project (with new videos): Super Metroid Redesign, any% speedrun

Posted: 9/17/2006 7:18 AM

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Dromiceius

Joined: 10/3/2005
Posts: 1332

Damn... I'm really tempted to give this a go. Saturn's real-time movie has killed many an inconvenient afternoon for me over the last year, so it would be satisfying to see it get smashed. I remember either Saturn or Nitsuja did a WIP of the five towers at some point. Anybody know where that is?

Posted: 9/17/2006 7:42 AM

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nitsuja

Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1300)

Joined: 12/21/2004
Posts: 2687

Try: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/281/Terranigma (E) [!].smv It's full of mistakes mistakes though. Should have renamed Ark A, done the first dungeon room much faster, advanced the dialog faster, not randomly paused on the overworld, not died after the last tower, etc. And some understanding of how to manipulate damage and criticals would make the fights a lot smoother. By the way, there is a hack that sets the game back to NTSC mode while keeping the dialog from the PAL version, basically creating a Terranigma (U) ROM. I haven't looked into it much, but it's not a fan translation, it might be allowed.

Posted: 9/17/2006 8:42 AM

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Dromiceius

Joined: 10/3/2005
Posts: 1332

Thanks for the advice. I found the patch on Zophar. Huzzah. I also found a topic on SDA, but *yawn* I'll have to trawl through all that tomorrow.

Posted: 9/17/2006 11:19 AM

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Saturn

Player (209)

Joined: 2/18/2005
Posts: 1451

Dromiceius: If you really plan to start a TAS on it I will definitely support you. Feel free to ask me anytime if you have questions or problems. Also posting WIPs frequently would increase the chance to find route mistakes or unoptimal leveling-up locations in time. I'm not sure if there are many Hex Adresses that are worth to watch (except the individual Bosses HP) but here is the only Adress I found to be of use (only tested on the original Terranigma (E) PAL version): 7E062E (3-bytes): In-game seconds For some reason I couldn't find a correct In-Game "Frame Counter" Adress so simply watch the realtime Frame Counter (while recording a movie) along with it to see the frames. Another strange thing is that the in-game seconds increase after every 60 frames and not 50 as it should be in PAL which is the reason why the in-game time is always lower than the realtime in this game (for comparison: I did a ~4:40 run though the realtime was 6:01 hours). PS: The NTSC patch is great. I didn't know something like this existed before. :-) I think it's definitely worth a exception to accept even if it's not a official one because NTSC is so much better and cleaner to playback on this game.

See my perfect 100% movie-walkthroughs of the best RPG games on http://www.freewebs.com/saturnsmovies/index.htm Current TAS project (with new videos): Super Metroid Redesign, any% speedrun

Posted: 9/18/2006 5:22 AM
(Edited: 9/25/2006 7:43 AM)

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Dromiceius

Joined: 10/3/2005
Posts: 1332

Fabulous! Thanks Saturn. I think it'll be awhile before I have any WIPs to post. I'll be reading tonight, in the couple hours I can set aside for this project. After that, I'm going to want to figure out how to manipulate the level-up stat increases, if it's at all possible. Seems as good an excuse as any to learn more ASM, which I've been meaning to do for ages. :D Edit: Found a chart just now. Seriously? The bonuses aren't random at all? Edit: Referrer link blah blah...

Posted: 9/18/2006 5:08 PM

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Saturn

Player (209)

Joined: 2/18/2005
Posts: 1451

Yep, all the stats and level up bonuses are fixed and there is nothing you can do about it. At east this allows you to exactly calculate all the experience progress far ahead when testing things for the later TAS. I also recommend to check the following sites: http://www.terraearth.com/terranigma http://www.rpgclassics.com/shrines/snes/terranigma They have alot of useful information especially about Enemies - like how much HP they have, how much Exp. you get and how much money they drop. I can't guarantee that the values are correct though, so best is to check them in the game when TASing one more time to be sure. Also the Armor/Weapon Guides may be useful as they state all the bonuses of them, the location to find/buy and the price.

See my perfect 100% movie-walkthroughs of the best RPG games on http://www.freewebs.com/saturnsmovies/index.htm Current TAS project (with new videos): Super Metroid Redesign, any% speedrun

Posted: 9/20/2006 4:57 AM

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Dromiceius

Joined: 10/3/2005
Posts: 1332

Thanks for the info. I'm still digging through it. I was experimenting today with manipulating critical hits, and possible L+R glitches. ...And now I've tracked down Lunar Address. Good for me! I'll let you know if I find anything juicy.

Posted: 2/20/2009 2:16 PM

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Randil

Skilled player (1886)

Joined: 4/20/2005
Posts: 2160
Location: Norrköping, Sweden

I'd be pretty interested in this, it's been a while since I last played through it though. How long do you think the run will be? (if that's not a secret)

Samsara wrote:

The rules say that you should really use the U version unless there's a good reason not to. With that said, good luck, and welcome to the forums! :)

My own page on this site.

Posted: 2/20/2009 2:18 PM
(Edited: 2/20/2009 3:26 PM)

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Samsara

She/They

Senior Judge, Site Admin, Expert player (2122)

Joined: 11/13/2006
Posts: 2794
Location: Northern California

Randil wrote:

There's no U version. Everything posted in this topic used the E version. There's a patch that turns the E version into a mock U version, but I'm waiting for a decision before I switch to it. EDIT: I'm estimating the movie file's gonna be the longest on the site thus far. I say somewhere around 5 hours.

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warmCabin wrote:

Posted: 2/20/2009 2:19 PM

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Cpadolf

Skilled player (1432)

Joined: 7/15/2007
Posts: 1468
Location: Sweden

Samsara wrote:

Unless there is a very good reason to choose the E version over the U version (like a major timesaving glitch/trick) I suggest that you change to the latter, otherwise I think that you'll risk rejection when submitting the run. As for the game itself, it seems interesting enough, and as far as know it's fairly well known, so I'm sure there are plenty of people who are interested in seeing a TAS of it. EDIT: Oh, if the E version is standard then you should probably use it.

Agare Bagare Kopparslagare

Posted: 2/20/2009 3:52 PM

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Samsara

She/They

Senior Judge, Site Admin, Expert player (2122)

Joined: 11/13/2006
Posts: 2794
Location: Northern California

http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1333580515/Terranigma(E)[!].smv I feel obligated to have some sort of WIP up. It's really short, but it's enough to show off the most important trick, something I like to call the Diagonal-boost, or D-boost. From what I understand, it works the exact same way as arm-pumping in Super Metroid, or the wobble trick in A Link to the Past. Whenever Ark moves diagonally, he's shifted forward a bit. Alternating between pressing down and pressing either down+left or down+right will cause him to move down at a faster speed than if you were to just hold down. Same with all the other directions. It saves a frame per use, I believe, and with all the dungeon and town crawling you do in this game... And before you ask, alternating diagonals every frame doesn't make any difference (again, like in SM). Comparing this to nitsuja's WIP, I saved 145 frames (2.9 seconds) total. I lost 7 at the beginning from renaming Ark to A (the naming screen is awfully slow), so I'm only 138 frames (2.76 seconds?) ahead at the end of this WIP. It took about 2 hours. EDIT: The rest of the time saved comes from the dialogue. Holding A during dialogue allows it to advance as soon as possible, as long as you release A and hold it again for every line that comes up. Shortening Ark's name also saved a couple frames. I could save a couple more frames from perfecting the routes, so I think I'll pull my first of several hundred restarts when I get some free time today.

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warmCabin wrote:

Posted: 2/20/2009 4:23 PM

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Cpadolf

Skilled player (1432)

Joined: 7/15/2007
Posts: 1468
Location: Sweden

That's a pretty nice trick, In a long run like this that will surely add up to a lot of time saved :) And a tip for viewers, if you increase the speed once it will run in 60 fps, making the video look much smoother (at least on my computer running PAL games in the standard 50 fps makes it very "hacky"), and you'll still have no problem following the run as the increase in speed is very slight.

Agare Bagare Kopparslagare

Posted: 2/23/2009 10:35 PM

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Samsara

She/They

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Joined: 11/13/2006
Posts: 2794
Location: Northern California

http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/47218054/Terranigma%20WIP%202.smv New, but unfortunately still rather short, WIP. It goes up to leaving Crysta, so it's still not anything too exciting. So far I'm 375 (7.5 seconds) frames ahead of nitsuja's WIP. Next WIP will be through Tower 3, expect it within a week or two.

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warmCabin wrote:

Posted: 2/23/2009 11:46 PM

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Cpadolf

Skilled player (1432)

Joined: 7/15/2007
Posts: 1468
Location: Sweden

Good to see that progress is being made, although not that interesting this far because of 80% being talking and tutorials :) Also I checked because of interest, and it seems the running trick saves ~60 frames per 200 frames running. This is a lot...

Agare Bagare Kopparslagare

Posted: 7/14/2009 11:54 PM

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Samsara

She/They

Senior Judge, Site Admin, Expert player (2122)

Joined: 11/13/2006
Posts: 2794
Location: Northern California

Well, it's been a week or two, hasn't it? ._. To be honest, I kinda... um... forgot I was doing this. But I remember, now, so progress begins anew. Wish I could post a WIP, but my file hasn't been touched for the past... oh... five months or so, so instead I'll talk about some stylistic choices. Speed/Entertainment Tradeoffs Anyone who's played the game knows that it's very, very dependent on grinding. One or two extra strength points is the difference between doing hardly any damage to a boss, and doing massive damage to a boss, which could end up saving a *lot* of time if the amount of grinding is minimized effectively. On top of that, there are... I believe four STR Potions scattered throughout the game, each one permanently raising your STR by one. I intend to pick them all up, since the detours I need to take to get them are nothing compared to how much I have to grind for those extra STR points. I'm going to safely assume that the lot of you would not be entertained by the amount of grinding one would normally need to do to advance in this game. There's a few choices I could make here: 1. Do as little grinding as possible, but spend a lot more time fighting the bosses/necessary enemies. While it'll cut down on repetition, it'll be rather boring to watch several minute long boss fights due to having a low STR stat. 2. Say "Screw entertainment!" and grind normally. The boss fights will be entertaining, but there will be a lot of repetition during the grinding phases. 3. Blend the two above choices in the best way possible, making some speed/entertainment tradeoffs. This is the choice I'm going with. Both real-time runs (the segmented SDA run and Saturn's single-segment emulator run) strayed toward the second option, but they both used the quickest sections to grind in, and I can honestly say I'll be there myself, though I'm keeping my time there as short as possible by taking some extra time to kill some slightly out-of-the-way enemies. Aye, that was a long sentence. >_> The EnbuPike It seems to be that the detours I need to take to get the EnbuPike would outweigh the time it saves, although it seems to me that taking the EnbuPike would end up saving a good chunk of time in the long run. I'll test both "routes", so to speak. Sure, it may seem like a LOT of hassle, but there are some workarounds. I'll have an answer as soon as possible, it really shouldn't take longer than a couple days to figure out. A Bit More on Grinding Most speedruns just blindly plow through the towers, but I'm taking a couple strategic moments to grind early on, in hopes that it'll reduce grinding time later in the game. The room in the first tower with two Living Statues is my first quick-grind area. 10 EXP a pop, so I'm using it to level a bit early. One of the earlier places where I'll be grinding is on the Parasite boss. One of his attacks is throwing out 6 small enemies that combined, give you 66 EXP. Parasite can be manipulated to throw these out more often, so if you notice a few odd movements or hits during that battle, chalk it up to manipulation. I'm getting a bit wordy, so I'm gonna stop and plan my Towers grinding. I'll have a WIP up (seriously this time) in a week or two, even if I'm not done with the Towers.[/list]

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warmCabin wrote:

Posted: 7/15/2009 12:10 AM

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Dromiceius

Joined: 10/3/2005
Posts: 1332

Samsara wrote:

That's probably how I'd have done it, had I continued. The problem is that you might end up slower than the SDA time. Kinda puts you between a rock and a hard place, and for that reason I'm not really sure this game is worth TASing. My negative-nancyism aside, has the RNG been decoded to any extent? That's another thing that stymied me when I tried this- figuring out how to get criticals at will. Of course, I didn't know jack about disassembly back then. Figuring that out could give you a serious edge.

Posted: 7/15/2009 2:56 AM

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Samsara

She/They

Senior Judge, Site Admin, Expert player (2122)

Joined: 11/13/2006
Posts: 2794
Location: Northern California

Dromiceius wrote:

The d-boosting trick should put me ahead of the SDA time no matter what (I expect it to save about an hour total), but I do see your point. I'm just going by what I remember reading on the forums back in the past: If you want to see a run done, do it yourself. I honestly don't mind if I end up submitting this and it gets rejected, as long as I'm happy with the result.

Dromiceius wrote:

I'll work on decoding it once I get into TASing the Towers. I know that waiting some frames can manipulate a critical, but there has to be a faster way.

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warmCabin wrote:

Posted: 11/2/2009 7:03 PM

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Eratyx

Active player (254)

Joined: 12/3/2008
Posts: 61

I am also interested in this run. Terranigma was a fun, balanced game for me. Looking over the thread, I can only say that if posterity finds you chose a bad route, the only people who will care are the ones who will obsolete you. Go for the Enbu Pike, or don't; grind for STR, or don't. Test as much as you're willing and able, but don't let it destroy your motivation to finish.

Posted: 11/2/2009 8:02 PM

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Samsara

She/They

Senior Judge, Site Admin, Expert player (2122)

Joined: 11/13/2006
Posts: 2794
Location: Northern California

Thanks for the support, and good timing on the post, seeing as how I recently picked this back up after a huge burst of personal problems. About the EnbuPike: I will be getting it. I haven't done the extensive testing I wanted to do, but I really am certain it'll save time. I'm close to the end of Tower 3, and right now I'm about 1300 frames (26 seconds in PAL time) ahead of Nitsuja's WIP. I'll post my progress WIP once I enter Tower 5, which should be in a few hours. Not a few months, like I usually take. >_>

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warmCabin wrote:

Posted: 11/3/2009 2:38 AM

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Eratyx

Active player (254)

Joined: 12/3/2008
Posts: 61

Haha wow, 59 minutes before post after four months XD

Posted: 11/3/2009 3:04 AM

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Samsara

She/They

Senior Judge, Site Admin, Expert player (2122)

Joined: 11/13/2006
Posts: 2794
Location: Northern California

I was gonna post about it today, anyway. :3 I hit a bit of a snag (and by that, I mean "I played a lot of Rock Band" ._.), so I'll just post what I have so far. Sorry, it's still not all that exciting, but it's better than nothing. EDIT: It's most of the way through Tower 3, and I'm 1291 frames ahead of Nitsuja's test run.

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warmCabin wrote:

Posted: 11/21/2009 2:01 AM

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Samsara

She/They

Senior Judge, Site Admin, Expert player (2122)

Joined: 11/13/2006
Posts: 2794
Location: Northern California

Speaking of hitting a snag, I'm still working on figuring out how to manipulate the RNG. I haven't found out much yet... it seems like each room is set when you enter it, and delaying for quite a few frames before entering is the only way to change the manipulation. I got sick of trying to figure it out, so I redid Tower 2 from the four-switches room and saved 14 frames. Not entirely sure why I took that odd route after I'm working my way back up to the High Cadet battle (which is what's stopping me from continuing), and hopefully I'll have a WIP through all 5 Towers finished by the end of the month... though with my schedule, it may be more like mid-December by the time I put something up. Oh, and I uploaded Tower 1 and the old Tower 2 to Youtube.

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warmCabin wrote:

Posted: 11/21/2009 5:20 AM

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Nitrodon

Active player (283)

Joined: 3/4/2006
Posts: 341

The RNG has no source of entropy, so it can only be manipulated by using it. The value at 7E0417 increments every time the RNG is used, so you can watch that to keep track of whether the RNG changed. (If you want technical details, the RNG is a 128-bit big endian LCG, where 7E0417 is the least significant byte.)