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Posted: 2/21/2009 12:52 AM
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petrie911
Joined: 7/16/2006
Posts: 635
I can do it in 25, but that seems to be the minimum. You need not worry about this Swordless. We already have the maximum number of chus for Stone Tower, so it can't affect the route.
Posted: 2/22/2009 12:16 AM
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MrGrunz
Experienced player (599)
Joined: 2/8/2009
Posts: 656
Nintendo 3D TAS of 2014 N64/Wii TASer of 2011 TAS of 2011 N64/Wii TAS of 2011
ZFG mentioned, that there are enemys to the left and right of the sun block in the mirror room, that drop bombs, so we could use it did anybody try ESS after recoil flip yet? all you need for ESS is speed, so it should work
Posted: 2/22/2009 12:37 AM
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Slowking
Joined: 12/6/2008
Posts: 1193
I'm away for a few weaks and new major glitches get discovered. typical. XD I know my ideas didn't work that well in the past, but there is a german saying "Auch ein blindes Huhn findet mal ein Korn" (everybody has got to be right sometimes), so I'll try again. :D I'm not sure if this will really save time, probably not, but it could and then I would feel bad for not mentioning it before the run, so here it goes: -- First cycle -- as normal -- Second cycle -- get zora mask activate observatory owl activate zora owl get from great bay fairy to inkana activate owl jump into the river with the zora mask swim to the witches and get their bottle proceed as normal saves: way to inkana way to the swamp ads: 1-2 warps money gathering for bombs/chus and buying them hoover time
Posted: 2/22/2009 2:15 AM
(Edited: 2/23/2009 12:44 AM)
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petrie911
Joined: 7/16/2006
Posts: 635
Huh...I didn't think of that. Well, let's see how it stacks up. Getting rupees wouldn't take too much time, as we'd nicely pass the Zora Pots game on the way to the fountain, immediately paying for the bombchus used to hover. Of course, we lose 2 warps (1 into Ikana and 1 back into the Great Bay) and the time it takes to get from the GBT owl statue to Ikana, plus the time it takes to do that stuff in Ikana (probably :30). So I'm estimating time loss of about 3:30. Going to Ikana takes a good 2:00 at least, and going to the swamp is about 1:30. So we're about even here. However, we also save 10 bombchus by not hovering over the skull kid cutscene. Also, the above times were gathered from Mukki's run, which had the Goron Mask, which made these particular areas faster. Using this alternate route, we get... First cycle stuff (220r) Buy bomb bag +20c (20c) (90r) Get into North Bay (19c) Get Zora Mask, hit Owl statue, go to South Bay Zora Pot game, Song of Double Time (180r) Go to Fairy Fountain Hover to Ikana (4c) Hit Ikana owl, go to witches' hut Get bottle Kill Big Octos with Zora boomerangs Get Sonata Get Song of Soaring Get Bow (0c) Warp out to CT Buy 10c, head to Ranch (10c) (140r) Get Ranch Bottle (6c) *Song of Double Time when dawn comes* Warp to North Bay Get Hookshot+2 Zora Eggs (2c) Warp back and deposit them at the laboratory Go back for the other 2 Zora eggs (240r) (0c) Warp back to CT Buy 20c more (160r) (20c) Warp to Woodfall Wrong Warp to Snowhead (5c) Complete Snowhead Warp to CT, buy 20c more (80r) Warp to Ikana, climb Stone Tower Warp to CT, buy 20c more (0r) Warp to Stone Tower, complete temple, get a lot of rupees while in there *Warp to CT, buy 20c more* Warp to Woodfall, complete temple Warp to CT, buy 20c more, Warp to North Bay Do Pinnacle Rock Get NWBN Go to South Bay Do GBT Back to CT, Moon starred line depends on whether we do the Woodfall boss key skip or not, and thus determines how many rupees to get in STT. So, if 220r is significantly faster than 270r in the first cycle, perhaps we should use this? Ugh, I hate trying to figure out whether massively different routes that differ by seconds in total time are faster or not. The second Song of Double Time could be held off to immediately after night of the second day or immediately after dawn of the third day. It's best to play it in a place where the "dawn/night of the x day" message doesn't cause a cutscene. EDIT: As ZFG so kindly reminded me, since we have the Zora mask, we can just boomerang the Big Octos.
Posted: 2/22/2009 2:51 AM
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snorlax
He/Him
Joined: 5/20/2007
Posts: 174
Location: Wisconsin
I was thinking of something like this when the fairy fountain warp was discovered, but I think I just assumed you didn't think it was worthwhile. It also seems possible to me that having the Zora Mask earlier could save time and bombchus, but I don't know if it would be useful anywhere.
Posted: 2/22/2009 9:29 AM
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petrie911
Joined: 7/16/2006
Posts: 635
Well, as long as we're discovering things, I found the speed addresses in MM. X velocity: 00CD38C0 Y velocity: 00CD38C4 Z velocity: 00CD38C8 Note that Y is the vertical direction. You are facing in the X direction when your yellow map arrow points right, and in the Z direction when the map arrow points down. Notable things to come of this are speed values. I'll make a full report later, but the most important thing is this Goron Spike Roll: 27 Superslide: 27 fascinating, isn't it? Now, it should be noted that these addresses give merely a readout of the velocities. I have yet to locate the actual velocities in memory. So you won't be able to, say, make a levitation cheat by locking the Y address above to +27. Modifying the addresses seems to have no effect on Link.
Posted: 2/22/2009 12:18 PM
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MrGrunz
Experienced player (599)
Joined: 2/8/2009
Posts: 656
Nintendo 3D TAS of 2014 N64/Wii TASer of 2011 TAS of 2011 N64/Wii TAS of 2011
You forgot to think about one thing when we would go to the GB fountain, we wouldn't have the hookshot, what forces to hover and bomb long jump ;) I'll have a look on how many explosives we need there
Posted: 2/22/2009 3:02 PM
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Slowking
Joined: 12/6/2008
Posts: 1193
I thought about it, it was just includet in the "hoover time". :D But on the other hand: You should be able to water-jump with the Zora to the nearest platform and from there it shouldn't take to much bombs. Maybe you can even staricase your way with normal bombs.
Posted: 2/22/2009 4:46 PM
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Comicalflop
Editor, Experienced player (730)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Speedy TAS of 2009
petrie911 wrote:
Well, as long as we're discovering things, I found the speed addresses in MM.
Now are those for normal mupen or for the antiDS mupen? I've found that when it comes to MHS, the two different mupen versions have different memory addresses (since they are different programs.)
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Posted: 2/22/2009 7:15 PM
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petrie911
Joined: 7/16/2006
Posts: 635
they're for rerecording-v2. But it's not hard to find the Y velocity. Just have link jump off a high cliff and let him reach maximum speed. then have MHS search for the float value -30. The X and Z velocities should be next to it.
Posted: 2/22/2009 7:28 PM
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Mitjitsu
He/Him
Banned User, Experienced player (532)
Joined: 4/24/2006
Posts: 2997
TAS of 2007 N64 TAS of 2007
You might want to look for Z-position coordinate, it's very useful for bomb hovering.
Posted: 2/22/2009 8:05 PM
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Mukki
Skilled player (1090)
Joined: 8/26/2006
Posts: 1139
Location: United Kingdom
GBA TASer of 2012 GBA TAS of 2012 Lucky TAS of 2011 Gameboy TAS of 2011 N64 TASer of 2007
That value is stored at 00CEBD3E unsigned short, or at least it was on the mupen I recorded my run on and it is very useful for bomb hovering. I gave my memory watch list to Swordless a while ago.
http://tasvideos.org/Mukki.html
Posted: 2/22/2009 10:05 PM
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petrie911
Joined: 7/16/2006
Posts: 635
Slowking wrote:
I thought about it, it was just includet in the "hoover time". :D But on the other hand: You should be able to water-jump with the Zora to the nearest platform and from there it shouldn't take to much bombs. Maybe you can even staricase your way with normal bombs.
The platform seems a bit to high for the High Grab. But I have a better method which requires no hovering or long jumps. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wos34DfSPI
Posted: 2/22/2009 11:08 PM
(Edited: 2/22/2009 11:22 PM)
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MrGrunz
Experienced player (599)
Joined: 2/8/2009
Posts: 656
Nintendo 3D TAS of 2014 N64/Wii TASer of 2011 TAS of 2011 N64/Wii TAS of 2011
nice, petrie I'll make a non-TAS speed test soon the time differences for both methods should be always pretty much the same for the routes wheter it's tool-assisted or not oh, and we're going to use my inverted stone tower skip now, I think. should save about a minute or something I know, even more boring hovers, but our aim is to get the best time in the end ;)
Posted: 2/22/2009 11:09 PM
(Edited: 2/22/2009 11:28 PM)
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Slowking
Joined: 12/6/2008
Posts: 1193
Very nice. This would require no explosives at all. In this case you probably wouldn't activate the Zora owl however, as it would be to much of a detour, which reduces the time-gain a little, as you will have to make the way from the observatory to the zoras once more, once you are going to the water tempel... Edit: Hmm after checking again I'm not even sure anymore if activating the Zora owl will give you a significant speed advantage. You have to get there and you have to get back and you can't collect more rupees at the Zora game on the way to the tempel if needed... But if it would be faster maybe you could use the head of the sleeping turtle to activate the glitch?
Posted: 2/22/2009 11:26 PM
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MrGrunz
Experienced player (599)
Joined: 2/8/2009
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Slowking wrote:
Very nice. This would require no explosives at all. In this case you probably wouldn't activate the Zora owl however, as it would be to much of a detour, which reduces the time-gain a little, as you will have to make the way from the observatory to the zoras once more, once you are going to the water tempel...
what has to be timed next is, what of those 2 routes are faster: - observatory to turtle owl and back to fountain - observatory to fountain and later in the run obersavtory to turtle owl because of petrie's new trick, the second one should be faster now ;)
Posted: 2/22/2009 11:35 PM
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Slowking
Joined: 12/6/2008
Posts: 1193
Well later in the run you won't have to activate the turtle owl as you can go straight to the temple and don't have to return there ever. But I know what you mean. Well at least we should be able to time this one pretty fast. It might also come down to if we need more rupees, at the point when we are ready to enter the water tempel, or not. If we do the fastest way is to play the zora-bottle-gae and thus not activating the owl it is. Btw. might it not be a good idea to get the beaver bottle as the 3rd bottle after you got the hookshot or am I missign something? Edit: I edited my last post a little, not knowing that I allready had an answer, sorry.
Posted: 2/23/2009 12:00 AM
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MrGrunz
Experienced player (599)
Joined: 2/8/2009
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Nintendo 3D TAS of 2014 N64/Wii TASer of 2011 TAS of 2011 N64/Wii TAS of 2011
I tested dampe's bottle already and made a video about it and it was faster than ranch the bottle. the problem is, that dampe's bottle is only faster if we combinate it with ikana access, but we wouldn't have the hookshot at this point, so no dampe's bottle the beavers bottle seems to be a great idea I'll time it soon woha, a lot of testings left for us.....
Posted: 2/23/2009 12:35 AM
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Slowking
Joined: 12/6/2008
Posts: 1193
You only have to check the way to get there. petrie allready tased the race itself. It's fastest on the second day: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0omtBaA37A
Posted: 2/23/2009 12:42 AM
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petrie911
Joined: 7/16/2006
Posts: 635
I doubt the Beaver races will come out faster, but you're welcome to try. They're slower than the extra trip to Pinnacle Rock, though, and I'd bet they're slower than the Ranch, too. Yeah, we probably wont bother with the Zora Cape Owl statue. Too much of a detour, as mentioned.
Posted: 2/23/2009 12:50 AM
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MrGrunz
Experienced player (599)
Joined: 2/8/2009
Posts: 656
Nintendo 3D TAS of 2014 N64/Wii TASer of 2011 TAS of 2011 N64/Wii TAS of 2011
petrie911 wrote:
I doubt the Beaver races will come out faster, but you're welcome to try. They're slower than the extra trip to Pinnacle Rock, though, and I'd bet they're slower than the Ranch, too. Yeah, we probably wont bother with the Zora Cape Owl statue. Too much of a detour, as mentioned.
compared to my non-TAS run, I was about 25 seconds slower with beavers compared to the ranch bottle :( what's the 6th bottle of majora's mask we didn't mention yet?
Posted: 2/23/2009 12:58 AM
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petrie911
Joined: 7/16/2006
Posts: 635
Madame Aroma's bottle. You have to do most of the Kafei/Anju sequence for that, so it's not really practical.
Posted: 2/23/2009 2:37 AM
(Edited: 2/23/2009 2:56 AM)
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Slowking
Joined: 12/6/2008
Posts: 1193
Oh right you only have an additional trip to the pinnacle rock, not the Gerudo fortress. In this case the bottle probably would be slower... Why did you guys used to get 3 bottles anyway. Wouldn't a second trip to pinnacle rock allways been faster than the Romani bottle?
Posted: 2/23/2009 2:53 AM
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MrGrunz
Experienced player (599)
Joined: 2/8/2009
Posts: 656
Nintendo 3D TAS of 2014 N64/Wii TASer of 2011 TAS of 2011 N64/Wii TAS of 2011
I'm just testing the new route and it's 10 pm, when I arrive at the ranch....
Posted: 2/23/2009 2:58 AM
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Slowking
Joined: 12/6/2008
Posts: 1193
that's "a little" early. Did you play the song of double time at the point where petrie listed to play it? And did you make a video? I would like to see it in action.
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