Post by Mlandry

Posted: 1/28/2009 4:16 AM

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Nitrodon

Active player (283)

Joined: 3/4/2006
Posts: 341

Unfortunately, bosses are immune to status ailments, so that strategy won't work. A new partner's level is determined when you recruit him/her/it. He/she/it will always be within +/- 1 level of you at this time.

Posted: 1/28/2009 4:31 AM

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Kirkq

Player (208)

Joined: 7/7/2006
Posts: 798
Location: US

EDITED: I would speculate that any partner we take in Bonro/Zellis should be killed off after Red Pison. We then want to recruit the optimal character for grinding, or perhaps the rest of the run. Theoretically it will take two characters to level up one character to the point where he can grind more efficiently himself. I guess it makes sense to grind Lux up, scrap the character, and recruit a 3rd character after all leveling is complete. For reference:

Nitrodon wrote:

If only one character is alive, that character will receive full experience. Both characters need to be alive to recruit a new character. The new character will replace the old partner, and his/her/its level will be based solely on the main character's level.

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Posted: 1/29/2009 4:45 PM

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Sp00ky

Player (83)

Joined: 8/18/2008
Posts: 80

Thanks again. I came up with another crazy theory. Is it viable to fight a level 6 apprentice for XP in bonro or zellis? According to the xp chart at level 6 an apprentice should give 120 gold and 384 experience, which would be far superior to anything else we can fight at this level and expect to survive until after R-Pison. Lejes in particular would be great as his propensity for defense2 makes him particularly easy to manipuate.

Posted: 1/29/2009 6:13 PM

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Nitrodon

Active player (283)

Joined: 3/4/2006
Posts: 341

That should work. At level 6, Lejes, Valsu, and Esuna will all die to a single critical hit from a level 5 Lux with some luck manipulation for stats and/or damage. (Note that if you fight someone, it is impossible to recruit that person later.)

Posted: 1/31/2009 11:33 PM

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Sp00ky

Player (83)

Joined: 8/18/2008
Posts: 80

Hey Nitrodon, Do you happen to have the memory addresses for the other apprentice responses?

Posted: 2/1/2009 5:50 PM
(Edited: 2/14/2009 4:16 AM)

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Nitrodon

Active player (283)

Joined: 3/4/2006
Posts: 341

Apprentice responses (and critical values for responding to Lux): 7E5002: Kamil (5-14 fights, 40-99 joins) 7E5022: Olvan (10-19 fights, 60-99 joins) 7E5042: Esuna (10-19 fights, 60-99 joins) 7E5062: Wilme (10-19 fights, 60-99 joins) 7E5082: Lux (included for completeness) 7E50A2: Valsu (10-19 fights, 60-99 joins) 7E50C2: Lejes (30-39 fights, 80-99 joins) 7E5120: number of battles until apprentice responses change EDIT: Fixed critical values. I had accidentally interpreted the scale in the wrong direction.

Posted: 2/11/2009 7:20 AM

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Dromiceius

Joined: 10/3/2005
Posts: 1332

Kirkqq: I wrote the script you asked about, minus one or two tweaks, such as dodging enemies on the overworld. You can upload your savestate whenever it's ready. Edit: Curiously, it looks like a different RNG (I seem to recall Nitrodon mentioning an "AI RNG" at some point) is being incremented than the one used in battle damage formulae; the ally's stats are the same from one frame to the next, unless the surrounding NPCs are in different places. Also, in the two seconds of testing I had the bot do, I found that most "fitness" scores* fell in the 50-60 range, while the highest was 95. I don't know how much higher it can go, or how long it might take to manipulate such a roll *Fitness algo I decided to use:

   fitness = memory.readbyte(power)
   fitness = fitness + memory.readbyte(guard)*1.5
   fitness = fitness + memory.readbyte(maxHP)*0.05
   fitness = fitness + memory.readbyte(speed)*0.5

Posted: 2/23/2009 1:34 AM
(Edited: 3/4/2009 9:32 PM)

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Kirkq

Player (208)

Joined: 7/7/2006
Posts: 798
Location: US

Run thus far Fight/Exp/Total Exp Start 30 30 Romus* 528 558 (Level 3) OneFight 66 624 (Level 4) Pison* 264 888 Lejes/Esuna 320 1208 (Level 5, Recruit level 6 Wilme) Red Pison* 2203 3411 (Kill Wilme, pick up M Water, Level 8) PatrofLejes* 832 4243 (Level 9, Wilme still dead from Red Pison.) Red Pison is difficult, but doable with many potions. Lejes is really easy. * = required fight In Bone, it appears to be fastest keeping Lux alive and going to Bonro->Pandam. This bypasses the cave and Dowaine, thus we cannot use the kid to manipulate money (It's not much money per time anyway.). I will investigate if money will be an issue though. Dragon (Sky Rune), Serpent (Moon Rune effectively), and Doros (Light Rune) are the next three bosses. Map: http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/snes/file/563501/35032 I believe the only places we HAVE to visit (I think?) are Pandam, Bilthem, Brush, Serpent Tower, Luze, and [Padal OR Telaine (probably Padal?)]. I would speculate that the Sky Rune being stolen is dependent on what order the bosses are killed in. Dragon probably has to be killed first, but I will investigate this. Regardless of whether we are trying to recruit an apprentice afterwards, there is a 10 second 'fail music' if we don't grab it there. The FAQs seem to recommend Dragon->Serpent->Doros in terms of weakest to strongest. Every boss from now on can be fought with B Power, Star Rune, and B Agility. Mirrors may be helpful for the Dragon and Serpent, and harps may be useful for Doros. (Can mirrors petrify bosses? I doubt it, but I'll check later.) Prosa's task for the moon rune must be initiated (not sure exactly what the trigger is yet) before we kill Serpent. Going to Zellis is a waste of time. Gamefaqs - "Commander Prosa will normally be [in Padal]. He has the Moon Rune and will offer it to you in exchange for a task. His daughter has been kidnapped by the wicked Serpent, so if you free her he'll give it to you (see chapter 5). Prosa will not be here if war is declared or if peace is made. If Belaine and Telaine are at war, find him in Telaine Castle. If peace is made, he'll go home to Polasu (far to the northwest). Also, if you have already defeated Serpent, he will offer you a different quest. He needs you to go find Pegim. Pegim can be found in Zellis." I have a pretty detailed spreadsheet I added onto Healblade's for calculating apprentice stats with the Elnard boost at various levels among other things. Seed Plan: __ = Skip, ?? = Not sure yet. Protect Seeds are EXTREMELY necessary. Power Seeds are Quite necessary. Agility Seeds - I don't really know how much of a difference one seed makes when we do luck manipulation. Vitality Seeds - 4 HP is not much at the end of the game. Magic Seeds - The only time magic will be used offensively is the Monmo fight (B Fires will probably be used as well.) We will see if magic attacks by bosses become worse later in the run though. Intelligence Seeds - MP is not necessary enough to matter most likely. Pr Seed: Search the small nook straight E of the entrance to Rablesk P Seed: Chest in Aran Castle (where Romus is) [~20s] A Seed: Chest in Cave of Earth (where Pison is) Pr Seed: Chest in Melenam P Seed: Search the table in front of the elder in Guntz A Seed: Chest in Cavern under Patrof (on the way to evil apprentice) Pr Seed: Chest in Cavern under Patrof P Seed: Chest in Patrof Castle (where evil apprentice is) A Seed: Chest in basement of NE building in Bone __M Seed: Chest in Grime Tower (Olvan gets this early) __V Seed: Chest in Grime Tower (Olvan gets this early) __A Seed: Chest in basement of Olvan's father's house in Pang V Seed: Chest in Cave to Boere (on the way to Luze) Pr Seed: Chest in Cave to Boere (on the way to Luze) __I Seed: Chest in Cave of Laosu (W of Padal) __I Seed: Chest in Baran Castle (where Serpent is) V Seed: Chest in Bilthem Castle (where Doros is) __A Seed: Chest in North Tower (can go to Grime Tower from here) (Haven't routed beyond here yet. Will update this in the future.) M Seed: Chest in Cave of Kapel (on the way to Bugask) Pr Seed: Chest in Cave of Silence (where M-Pison is) ??P Seed: Chest in basement of present-day Gorfun (where Gariso is) A Seed: Search SE corner of engine room in Airship after crash M Seed: Chest in Barrier Cave (where Saro is) ??P Seed: Chest in Barrier Cave (where Saro is) ??P Seed: Chest in past-day Gorfun (where Gorsia is) Figuring out whether to use seeds on Lux or end game Olvan will be difficult. Goals for now: Figure out what the chain of events is where I get the Sky Rune from the pedestal and Prosa is in the optimal position [Padal or Telaine?]. Figure out if I can feasibly kill S Brains with Lux alone or figure out the optimal method of leveling until Lux can kill them. Figure out what apprentice/s is/are best for this segment and what level is required to fight the last boss in the segment. I'm probably going to want to kill the apprentice and M Water them back at the end of each fight. It saves ~0.75 S Brain fights per boss. I should have a decent amount of money at this point to make a purchasing run for this segment. There are various chests 10 seconds out of the way with over 1k gold worth in them, or I could kill a trick. Nitrodon (or someone else) - Do you have the address for the apprentice holding the Sky Rune, so that I can see when it gets set? If anyone has any ideas feel free to toss them up.

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Posted: 2/23/2009 2:34 AM

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Slotermeyer

Player (97)

Joined: 7/16/2005
Posts: 34

Mirrors do not petrify bosses. I've also literally never gotten the Sky Rune from the Dragon, so I'd love to know what determines that. Be sure to grab the Brown Coat in Melenam for a few extra defense for Lux. I think it's +4, which is as much as a Pr Seed.

Posted: 2/23/2009 9:58 PM

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Kirkq

Player (208)

Joined: 7/7/2006
Posts: 798
Location: US

I just tested about every variation I could think of for the Sky Rune. Lux with Wilme as a partner, no matter what level they are always appear to always get the Sky Rune stolen. Fortunately we don't have to check the altar for the apprentice to have it in their possession, but now we have to manipulate the apprentice somewhere. I tried literally many permutations of Doros, initiating Prosa, killing Serpent, collecting Moon Rune, and then killing the Dragon. I picked up a crystal sometimes, sometimes I didn't. I set my level to 8 and then to 50. The Sky Rune got stolen every single time. I have to try a few more permutations involving the Dragon first to see where Prosa goes. In all the other permutations he starts in Padal then goes to Telaine. To initiate the Serpent quest you must talk to him once (you can say no, it's faster.) It seems faster to talk to him in Padal and then get the rune in Telaine (as opposed to not talking to him, going to Telaine, going to Zellis, and then going to Telaine again.) so to update the locations visited list: Pandam, Brush, Bilthem, Telaine, Padal, Luze, Serpent Tower.

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Posted: 2/24/2009 5:16 AM

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Nitrodon

Active player (283)

Joined: 3/4/2006
Posts: 341

When you defeat the dragon, a randomly chosen apprentice (excluding you and your partner if any) will get the Sky Rune. There's no address for "the apprentice with the Sky Rune", but I have something nearly as good. 7E5018: first item held by Kamil 7E5038: first item held by Olvan etc. (Esuna, Wilme, Lux, Valsu, Lejes) EDIT: I suppose you'll also want apprentice locations eventually.

0737: Bonro item shop 
0738: Bonro weapon/armor shop 
0739: Bonro tavern 
073A: Zellis tavern 
073B: Zellis armor shop 
073C: Zellis inn
073D: Eygus house of healing
073E: Eygus NW house
073F: Eygus inn
0740: Pell outside tavern
0741: Pell W house
0742: Pell house of healing
0743: Guntz SE house
0744: Guntz inn
0745: Guntz outside E house
0746: Patrof inn
0747: Patrof tavern
0748: Patrof weapon/armor shop
0749: Bone item shop
074A: Bone weapon/armor shop
074B: Bone SE house
074C: Dowaine outside SW
074D: Dowaine house of healing
074E: Dowaine weapon shop
074F: Belaine inn
0750: Belaine NW weapon shop
0751: Belaine castle basement
0752: Telaine outside SE
0753: Telaine tavern
0754: Telaine armor shop
0755: Pang SE house
0756: Pang E house
0757: Pang outside SW
0758: Padal outside W
0759: Padal barracks
075A: Padal inn
075B: Polasu item/weapon/armor shop
075C: Polasu inn
075D: Polasu outside NE
075E: Tiffana inn
075F: Tiffana castle E balcony
0760: Tiffana armor shop
0761: Bilthem inn
0762: Bilthem 3F
0763: Bilthem 1F E room
0764: Pandam tavern
0765: Pandam weapon shop
0766: Pandam upstairs in building near dock
0767: Brush outside NE
0768: Brush tavern
0769: Brush item shop

Posted: 2/27/2009 6:59 AM

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eternaljwh

Joined: 3/11/2008
Posts: 583
Location: USA

Kirkq wrote:

I just tested about every variation I could think of for the Sky Rune. Lux with Wilme as a partner, no matter what level they are always appear to always get the Sky Rune stolen. Fortunately we don't have to check the altar for the apprentice to have it in their possession, but now we have to manipulate the apprentice somewhere.

E'en going there before dealing with the Patrof apprentice perhaps? Does Remote Control-boy hand it o'er if Lux is dead, or is that the event that doesn't care? Going that way might be required to get quick Sky...but I'm just brainstorming.

Posted: 2/27/2009 5:54 PM

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Kirkq

Player (208)

Joined: 7/7/2006
Posts: 798
Location: US

eternaljwh wrote:

Does Remote Control-boy hand it o'er if Lux is dead, or is that the event that doesn't care? Going that way might be required to get quick Sky...but I'm just brainstorming.

I was informed that you can't get past Bone until you get both the Water Rune and the Star Rune. I can double check this later. If Lux is dead the partner will get the remote control. Pandam appears to me to be the better starting position than Dowaine, in which case keeping Lux alive is better. Dowaine seems quite far out of the way, I will check this later when it is more pertinent. This route requires Bone -> Bonro -> Pandam -> Bilthem -> Brush and Pandam -> Telaine routing. (Pandam->Bilthem and Pandam->Brush may be slightly faster, haven't tested.) The other route requires Bone->Cave of Milto->Dowaine->Telaine, Telaine to Bilthem, and Bilthem to Brush walks. (Luze is assumed from Telaine, Padal from Telaine, and Serpent Tower from Brush in both cases.) In other news, I'm looking into beating Monmo without magic (B Fires perhaps?, really depends how overleveled we are I guess.), it eliminates the need to talk to anyone in Guanta. We get magic back upon reaching the past in this case. The game froze on me once using the moonlight against gariso having no magic, I'm not sure if it was a game glitch or an emulator glitch. It worked the remaining times though.

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Posted: 3/1/2009 2:55 PM

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eternaljwh

Joined: 3/11/2008
Posts: 583
Location: USA

Questions were more aimed at "odd things to test to see if Sky Rune won't be stolen" than "ways to be faster".

Posted: 3/1/2009 5:27 PM

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Nitrodon

Active player (283)

Joined: 3/4/2006
Posts: 341

eternaljwh wrote:

Questions were more aimed at "odd things to test to see if Sky Rune won't be stolen" than "ways to be faster".

There is absolutely no way to avoid that. The code that is run when you defeat the dragon will always give the Sky Rune to another apprentice, and the text when examining the pedestal does not have any conditional branches. In short, the "Sky Rune was not stolen" scenario does not exist in the game.

Posted: 3/1/2009 6:23 PM

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Slotermeyer

Player (97)

Joined: 7/16/2005
Posts: 34

Re: Monmo, could you wait to switch apprentices until after the cave takes away your magic? I've never tested this, but according to one of the walkthroughs on GameFAQs the new apprentice will not be cursed. In addition, waiting until as late as possible to switch will give you extra Elnard stats for the added partner.

Posted: 3/1/2009 10:47 PM
(Edited: 3/2/2009 1:15 PM)

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Kirkq

Player (208)

Joined: 7/7/2006
Posts: 798
Location: US

Nitrodon and I had a fairly lengthy discussion regarding the money issue. To beat Gorsia with Lux/Olvan required approximately level 25 and 165k gold. I will soon test the possibility of beating Gorsia with Lux/Lejes. It requires approximately 129k. This is assuming max gear minus Lux's weapon purchase in both cases. The reason Lejes may be more useful than Olvan is because the Immo robe gives an extra 20% magic resistance which is the main killer late game. We need to brainstorm how to get money. After Griffan with the current route (including about 35 S Brains to get to level 26 estimated.) we have only 45,000 gold. Good sources of money include tricks (all types.) After Pison it is speculated that we may be able to kill the trick at level 4 with a mirror, which would result in 5k gold (emerald) off the start for all early game B Powers/B Protects. We should be overleveled enough after S Brains to kill all king tricks after that segment (It may require a B Power, not sure.) They can drop emeralds. (5k) Looting the treasure room in Telaine should net a fair amount of money. In Gariso's castle is a FortSW which sells for 12.5k. Olvan and Kamil can be recruited at any point in order to steal their gear. We would need to purchase weak gear to replace it with. Olvan's gear at level 22 actually sells for about 30k, so this is highly useful. Perhaps we could recruit Olvan, recruit Kamil, and then recruit Lejes and be well on our way. I'm thinking a mid-game trip to Lemele/Rablesk/Bonro/Zellis weapon/armor shops will be necessary to purchase this gear. We could restock on B Powers/B Protects before Red Pison anyway. Wind rune from Melenam wouldn't waste much time. I'm thinking in our run we should be liberal with item choices while shopping if necessary. We should minimize the number of shopping trips, but we should forget about optimal points to purchase things early to save a few frames of item selections where the amount needed in the future is unknown. I think that is a corner that needs to be cut to minimize the amount of extra items purchased. Recoveries may be necessary late game. I'm thinking we would need max potion 3, max potion 2, and a number of recoveries in order to beat Goron/Griffan/Gorsia in one trip. Otherwise we would have to talk to Saro, die, buy stuff at the airship and walk back. This may only take 2 minutes though. Collecting 9 recoveries would take about 5 Brain fights and a bunch of sidetracking throughout the game. It may be best to do max potion 3 and make an extra trip back to the airship. This is probably highly worth accurately testing later. Nitrodon also mentioned recruiting the apprentice after being cursed, thank you for making sure it was brought up though, I was not aware of it earlier. Next step: See if Lux/Lejes is more capable, if for only the reason of being cheaper. EDIT: Those items in the post below were mentioned, but the Amulet will be in use by Lejes

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Posted: 3/2/2009 6:43 AM

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Slotermeyer

Player (97)

Joined: 7/16/2005
Posts: 34

Does the 45k include the 16000 from selling the Ring (Pandam inn), Cloak of Ice (Serpent castle) and Amulet (Doros' castle), all of which are on your route? Also, recoveries drop from one of the monsters in Saro's cave. I think it's Undeed, or something like that---the purple zombies. You might be able to manipulate them as needed there, especially if you have Lejes and Vacuum 2. Another point in favor of Lejes is that the Monmo fight may be considerably faster with his magic stats. It's going to be slow going at level 25 in either case.

Posted: 3/4/2009 7:26 PM
(Edited: 12/27/2009 9:42 AM)

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Kirkq

Player (208)

Joined: 7/7/2006
Posts: 798
Location: US

I am going to update this post with new information I find during my quick run through with Lux/Lejes this week. I will test fighting that trick later. It seems fairly important to be able to kill it to have money early game if at all possible. It would replace an apprentice battle. Valsu should be the apprentice, he can be killed with B Power, defend, attack, attack. It does not look feasible to kill him without a B Power unless we can defend, crit, defend crit. No B Protect needed though. The ring in Pandam isn't far off track (6k) The Ice cloak is exactly 20 steps off the path both ways (5k) (640 frames + x) The Telaine treasure room (15s away from the Moon Rune) has 8400 gold in 3 items and an M Water and a few potion 2's (probably not necessary) on top of that. EDIT: Lejes is most certainly the character we want to main. Lux and Olvan are literally unable to survive Gorsia's double hit magic spells at the level required. Strategic F. Shield and M Water is the only way to survive until he runs out of magic. We need 9 potn 3's and at least 3 M Waters to guarantee we can win. The threshold level is around Lux = 23 which requires around 25 S Brains. Hopefully that amount of grinding won't take longer than 15 minutes. I really don't think it should. One short battle takes around 1200 frames = 20 seconds or so. I don't recall if I mentioned that the new plan is to stock up on 9 vacuums in Tiffana 2-3 times. There are S Brains around Luze and S Brains around Brush. I'm not sure how close the ones around Brush extend towards Bilthem. We HAVE to be level 21 to steal gear, perhaps this is the minimum level threshold. Olvan = 32600, Kamil = 26200, Lejes = 14260, Valsu = 14260, Esuna = 19350. This is 92410 if we steal from everyone but Valsu. This puts us quite close to the needed 129k. EDIT2: Old Test Run up to Wind Rune (pretty much) http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1478841859/7th%20Saga%2C%20Lux%20-%20Brantu.smv Huge long Post of Route (Will make into a new post when complete.) Lemele- (Manipulate Wilme to Bonro Weapon Shop) Start - (30 XP, 200 Gold) Collect: Lemele Castle Opal, Mirror Collect: Potion1 in town Purchase 2xB Power (0 Gold) Rablesk- Collect: Potion1 Save at inn Castle Aran- Collect: Opal Die (Must set trick first attack to petrify here.) Rablesk- Collect: Pr Seed Collect: Whistle Sell: 2x Opal Buy: B Protect, 3x Potion1 Gold = 40 Castle Aran- Whistle Romus (Level: 3) Collect: Power Seed (All seeds given to Lux shortly after collection.) Cave of Earth- Collect: A Seed Kill Trick, get Emerald drop (Costs 1xMirror, 1xB Power) (Level: 4) Kill Pison (Costs 5x Potn1, 1 B Power, 1 B Protect)(Level: 5) Bonro- Gain's House House of Healing Tavern Weapon/Armor Shop Recruit Wilme House by Dock Gain's House Collect: Map Zellis- Recruit Brantu in Inn Melenam Cave- Collect: Wind Rune Enter Melenam- Wind Rune Rablesk- Sell: Emerald Sell: Coat Purchase: 2x B Protect (200) Wind Rune Lemele- Purchase: 5x B Power (500) Purchase: 9x Potn2 (900) Purchase: 5x Potn1 (100)(More or less) (Be sure to use ALL of these vs Red Pison) Wind Rune Melenam- Exit out other side. Cave- Kill Red Pison (Use all potions)(Level 8) (Costs 2 B Power, 2 B Protect, All Potions.) Let Wilme Die Collect: M Water Eygus- Set Valsu (Lv. 13) to Patrof as Sage moves. Pell- Step in and out of town. Guntz- Collect: P Seed Talk to elder (Max-1) times. Wind Rune to Pell- Recruit Digger Quose in Tavern. Wind Rune to Guntz- Collect: Water Rune Patrof- Enter Dungeon Patrof Dungeon- Collect: A Seed Collect: Pr Seed Collect: Recovery Patrof Castle- Fight Valsu (Use 1 B Power, 2 remaining) Wind Rune to Entrance Bone- Recruit Perole Collect: A Seed Wind Rune Bonro- Boat to Pandam Pandam- Wind Rune to Entrance Exit Brush- Enter/Exit Tiffana- Purchase 9 Vacuums Wind Rune to Brush- Engage and Vacuum 9 S Brains while walking towards Bilthem (Level = 15) Walk the other 1/2 of the path to Bilthem, Enter town Wind Rune to Tiffana- Purchase 9 Vacuums Wind Rune to Tiffana/Brush- Engage and Vacuum 9 S Brains while walking around Tiffana/Brush (Level = 18) Wind Rune to Tiffana- (Takes as much time as if we walked into town.) Purchase 9 Vacuums Purchase 1 M Water Wind Rune to Tiffana/Brush- Engage and Vacuum 9 S Brains while walking around Tiffana/Brush (Level = 20) Wind Rune to Pell- Kill 2x Brain (Manipulate 2x Recovery) Kill 2x Brain (Manipulate 2x Recovery) *Apprentice Responses Change* (Esuna?/Kamil/Olvan = Join) Kill 2x Brain (Manipulate 2x Recovery) (Level = 21) Somewhere before Serpent ------- Can Recruit Esuna (Lv. 22)* Can Bonro Weapon/Armor Shop* Can Steal Esuna's Gear* Recruit Kamil (Lv. 22) ------- Wind Rune to Pandam- Collect:Ring Wind Rune to Entrance Padal- Purchase: 8 B Agility (to hold spot in inventory later?) Purchase: 7 Potion2 Purchase: 8 B Protect Collect: Recovery (Check which first) Activate Prosa (Say no.) (Check which first) Wind Rune to Tiffana- Exit Baran Castle- Collect: Potion2 Collect: Recovery Collect: Ice Cloak Kill Serpent (Costs 2 B Power.) (Let Kamil Die.) M Water Kamil Collect: Sapphire Wind Rune to Padal- Exit Telaine- Walk to Prosa (Around the left?) Collect: Moon Rune Wind Rune to entrance Cave of Beore- Exit to Luze Luze- Kill Dragon (No items) (Do not check pedestal) Sky Rune must be in Olvan or Esuna's* possession. ------- Can Bonro Weapon/Armor Shop* Can Recruit Esuna (Lv. 22)* Can Steal Esuna's Gear* Recruit Olvan (Lv. 22) Collect: Sky Rune ------- Wind Rune to Bilthem- Collect: Exigate Doros Castle- Collect: Amulet Collect: Star Collect: V Seed Collect: Potn2 Collect: M Water Collect: Harp Kill Doros (Costs 4-5 Potn2, 2 B Agility) (Let Olvan Die.) M Water Olvan Wind Rune Brush- Fortune Teller Rarsa (100 G) Brantu - Flying Machine Valenca - Exit Cave of Kapel - (Loss of Magic) Exit Guanta - Enter/Exit Cave of Silence - Collect: M Water Kill M Pison (costs nothing) (Let Olvan Die.) Collect: Moonlight Exigate M Water Olvan Recruit Lejes Wind Rune Guanta- Exit Gorfun- Kill Monmo (Minimal Cost, lots of time.) Kill Gariso (Costs: 2 B Agility, 4-5 Potn 2) Pharano- Collect: Emerald Collect: Recovery Purchase: 8 B Power Purchase: Max Potion 2 Purchase: Max Potion 3 Ligena: (Manipulate Airship) Melenam: Get Lux a tuneup Exit Palsu: Sell: Lejes’s Gear Sell: Emerald Purchase: Max Gear minus Kryn (129k) Melenam: Tour Lab Talk to one person on the way out. Exit/Reenter Town Kill Foma (costs 2-3 Potn3) Airship: Purchase: Max Potn3 Purchase: 4 B Agility Purchase: 3 M Water Collect: Agility Seed Barrier Cave: Kill Goron Kill Griffan Talk to Saro Death Warp (lose half gold) Airship: Purchase Max Potion 3 Village: Collect Runes Gorfun: Kill Gorsia Sometime after vacuuming S Brains: Wind Rune Bonro- (tested more optimal than purchasing earlier because of item scrolling for vacuums) Purchase: (For Gear Steals) FireAx (70) x2 + PetrST (180) + PsyteAR (700) x2 + SilkRB (800) + XtriSH (70) x2 + scarf (1200) After M Pison *Apprentice Responses Change* (Esuna?/Lejes = Join) List of shops we will make purchases at: Lemele, Rablesk, Rablesk, Lemele, Tiffana, Tiffana, Tiffana, Padal, Bonro (weapon/armor), Pharano, Palsu (Weapon/Armor Shop), Airship (Post Foma), Airship (Post Griffan) Nitrodon - "location changes occur every 4-11 battles (uniformly randomly) plus twice throughout the game Eygus and Pandam/Dowaine depending on character (and possibly North Tower, I haven't checked that)" Value at 5121

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Posted: 4/18/2009 3:20 AM

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fmatthew5876

Joined: 4/17/2009
Posts: 2

As far as Prosa is concerned, the last time I played it I didnt speak to him at all until after defeating Serpent. The prisoner was in the dongeon in Belaine castle, he offered to give me the Moon rune if I would talk to the king about releasing him. The wierd thing about this is he gives you the moon rune right away. After this you can go talk to the king and pay 2000 gold to release him but as far as I can tell this does not seem to do anything since you already have the rune. I did speak to Prosa after killing Serpent. I am not sure if you can skip Prosa all together and go straight to Belaine after killing Serpent. It might be worth checking out. Could avoid going to Padal at all. I don't know why the guide you mentioned said he was in Zellis. Perhaps this could be one of those things that changes depending on which character you are? I was Kamil when I did this. You could test each of these alternatives and see which is faster. Talk to Prosa, kill Serpent, talk to Prosa again to get Moon rune. Kill Serpent, go directly to Belaine and get the the rune from the prisoner Also, the prisoner thing is something I imagine most people who have played this game before have not seen so it might make the video a little more interesting. I forgot to mention, and this might be important. I had stopped the war in Telaine and got the sky rune before doing all of this.

Posted: 4/18/2009 4:22 AM

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Kirkq

Player (208)

Joined: 7/7/2006
Posts: 798
Location: US

Great find. Unfortunately it doesn't appear to be faster. Kill dragon, make peace, kill serpent, go straight to belaine, prisoner gives rune Telaine king + Belaine prison as compared to Padal prosa + Telaine prosa We also need B Agility and B Protect in Padal. Unfortunately the current route seems best.

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Posted: 4/23/2009 9:47 AM

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Sp00ky

Player (83)

Joined: 8/18/2008
Posts: 80

Every now and then I try to motivate myself to pick this back up or at least see if I can find some stuff but it just reminds me how frustrating the manipulation system is.

Posted: 5/20/2009 3:25 AM
(Edited: 5/22/2009 11:16 PM)

Post subject: Routing/Accounting

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Kirkq

Player (208)

Joined: 7/7/2006
Posts: 798
Location: US

In conjunction with the other lengthy post recently, I present the formalized route Nitrodon and I discussed and tested for numerous hours. The Game Plan: Spend extreme amounts of effort optimizing stats, get to Gorsia, hope we've squeezed enough to be able to beat him. With this finalized, I think we will get started soon. Any error in the calculations will cost us 10 seconds or more to find a suitable alternative. I tried to err on the cautious side with the amount of potions available for all boss fights. I will read through all of my notes one more time to make sure everything agrees. If something doesn't look right please tell me before we mess up. Potion1: 1 Collect: Lemele 1 Collect: Rablesk 3 Purchase: Rablesk 4 Used: Pison 5 Purchase: Lemele 6 Used: Red Pison (-160 Gold) Opal: 1 Collect: Lemele Castle 1 Collect: Castle Aran 2 Sold: Rablesk (+200 Gold) Mirror: 1 Collect: Lemele 1 Used: Trick (+0 Gold) B Power: 2 Purchase: Lemele 1 Used: Trick 1 Used: Pison 5 Purchase: Lemele 2 Used: Red Pison 1 Used: Valsu 2 Used: Serpent 8 Purchase: Pharano 2 Used: Foma 2 Used: Goron 2 Used: Griffan 2 Used: Gorsia (-1500 Gold) Pr Seed: 1 Collect: Rablesk 1 Collect: Patrof Dungeon (6s) B Protect: 1 Purchase: Rablesk 1 Used: Pison 2 Purchase: Rablesk 2 Used: Red Pison 8 Purchase: Padal 2 Used: Foma 2 Used: Goron 2 Used: Griffan 2 Used: Gorsia (-1100 Gold) P Seed: 1 Collect: Castle Aran (33s, but worth it.) 1 Collect: Guntz (2s) A Seed: 1 Collect: Cave of Earth (9s) 1 Collect: Patrof Dungeon (3s) 1 Collect: Bone (12s) 1 Collect: Airship (14s) Emerald: 1 Collect: Cave of Earth Trick 1 Sold: Lemele 1 Collect: Pharano 1 Sold: Palsu (+10000 Gold) M Water: 1 Collect: Melenam 1 Collect: Melenam Cave (R. Pison) 1 Used: Wilme's R Pison death before tradeout. 1 Used: Kamil after Serpent 1 Collect: Doros Castle 1 Used: Olvan after Doros 1 Collect: Cave of Silence 1 Used: Olvan after M. Pison 3 Purchase: Airship Post Foma 3 Used: Gorsia (-3600 Gold) Potion2: 9 Purchase: Lemele 9 Used: Red Pison 7 Purchase: Padal 1 Collect: Baran Castle 1 Collect: Doros Castle 4 Used: Doros 5 Used: Gariso 9 Purchase: Pharano 9 Used: Goron/Griffan (-2500 Gold) Recovery: 1 Collect: Patrof Dungeon 4-5 Collect: Brains 1 Collect: Padal 1 Collect: Baran Castle 1 Collect: Pharano Vacuum: 9 Purchase: Tiffana 9 Used: S Brains 9 Purchase: Tiffana 9 Used: S Brains 9 Purchase: Tiffana 9 Used: S Brains (-5400 Gold) B Agility: 8 Purchase: Padal 2 Used: Doros 2 Used: Gariso 2 Used: Foma 4 Purchase: Airship Post Foma 2 Used: Goron 2 Used: Griffan 2 Used: Gorsia (-1200 Gold) Sapphire: 1 Collect: Baran Castle 1 Sold: Pharano (+2500 Gold) Exigate: 1 Collect: Bilthem V Seed: 1 Collect: Doros Castle (3s) Harp: 1 Collect: Doros Castle (2s) Potion3: 9 Purchase: Pharano 2 Used: Foma 2 Purchase: Airship Post Foma 9 Used: Goron/Griffan 9 Purchase: Airship Post Griffan (-7200 Gold (Not Including last 9) ) (((-9960))) For all accounting above here. Garbage Gear (-3860) Rarsa (-100) Game Start (+200) Coat (+1000) Pandam Ring (+6000) Sapphire (+2500) Ice Cloak (+5000) Kamil's Gear (+26200) Esuna's Gear (+19350) Olvan's Gear (+32600) Lejes's Gear (+14260) Lux's Gear(Brwn) (+1500) Monsters before Goron (+34600) Max Gear minus Kryn (-129000) 290 Gold in possession before Goron (+7000) Gold Goron/Griffan (-3645) Gold from Death (-3600) Gold for 9 Potion 3 = +45 Gold Remaining

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Posted: 5/20/2009 8:23 AM

Post subject: Re: Routing/Accounting

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eternaljwh

Joined: 3/11/2008
Posts: 583
Location: USA

Kirkq wrote:

In conjunction with the other lengthy post recently, I present the formalized route Nitrodon and I discussed and tested for numerous hours. The Game Plan: Spend extreme amounts of effort optimizing stats, get to Gorsia, hope we've squeezed enough to be able to beat him.

...Wouldn't it be more sensible to determine what kind of stats you need prior to running up to him?