And it's progress time again.
Test run 1, update 3[/url], up to the entrance to Magus's Castle. Actual time is 01:58:59, with the official game clock at 01:51. Again, a tad longer than I had hoped, but not by much.. the dialogue (especially the cutscenes with Frog) was a bit longer than I thought it would be.
A save state is included (slot 0), which is saved at the beginning of the End of Time. Be sure to rename it to whatever the name of your ROM is.
Notes on this version:
- I'll definitely need to check sooner or later on how much I can cheat on walking around the walls of Spekkio's room.. though I don't think it'll be all that much.
- I'm pretty sure I avoided all enemies that were avoidable from the End of Time up to this point (with the possible exception of the Reptite Lair), but I don't want to wait for the EvilWeevils to drill holes in the ground, and it'd probably be slower to wait anyways.
- I put a little bit less care into my movements in this version, so you might see the occasional sloppy corner turn here and there, a couple slowdowns as I slip up on state saving, etc. Not much of a big deal, really.
- Just to clarify, the two items I spend about 15-20 seconds going well out of my way down the waterfall in the Denadoro Mountains to get are a SilverStud (-50% MP cost) and a SilverEarring (+25% max HP).. these will definitely be worth it shortly..
- Getting magic for Frog: While it would definitely make it interesting if I totally skipped getting magic for Frog (at least until after the first trip to Zeal or so), I'm not sure how much I'll be relying on it in the upcoming section of Magus's castle, so I went and got it anyways. I expect to abuse Ice Water on most regular enemies, and will likely use SwordStream and maybe Heal against Magus as well, and skipping magic for Frog will make him almost entirely dead weight throughout most of the castle. Though, he might be pretty much dead weight anyways against stuff that won't die to Ice Water.. he's hideously underleveled (only lv12!).. I'll have to wait and see while I progress through the castle.
I'll probably be taking a bit of a break from the run now to do a bit of investigating for the last section of the game.. mostly to determine the M.Def threshold to survive Doors of Doom (Lavos 2's opening attack), Shadow Doom Blaze, and Dreamless at 999 HP with an OmegaFlare party of Magus/Robo/Lucca. Right now I'm hoping it'll be between 70 and 80, and I'll be at around that level at level 40.. I expect to be between 30 and 35 by the time of the Ocean Palace disaster, and so it shouldn't take more than 2-4 trips through the Geno Dome conveyor belt to have all the levels I need. If it's above 80, though, I won't bother stacking Robo with M.Def raising equipment and will just Revive him after any of the above attacks smite him dead. If it's above 85-90, though, I'm pretty much going to throw the OmegaFlare tactic (and any other offense-based tactics) out the window and just shoot for Lifeline, as it'll take far too much time to acquire the levels to be able to ride the attack out.
Next update, when I get going again, will be after Lavos wipes the floor with me in the Ocean Palace.
Questions/comments? Fire away!
(Edit: Oops! This is what you get when you copy/paste XD Link fixed.)
Joined: 8/25/2004
Posts: 44
Location: St. Louis, Missouri, USA
Edit: Link fixed, still love the run ^_^
Edit 2: Question time... Why don't you have Crono use his slash or cyclone technique against the giant skeleton guy at the end of the bridge? Does it just not do as much damage as normal attacks? It seems as though you were trying to save your character's MP, but if one of them gets drained of it at the end of the battle anyway, and if it's possible to manipulate who gets drained, what's the point of saving it all up (if that's what you're doing in the first place)? Thanks ^_^
0_o, i see many could be improved.
I hope you have not gone too far (to much effort) in that 3rd update.
1. 2300 AD - (race) Bike race, miss knock 3 or 4 times, try no miss.
2. 2300 AD - (factory) You do not need to thru entire factory for password (pw always X A B Y)
3. 600 AD - (bridge) I dont think you need to speak to golden knight to meet his bro (chef), see chef first? (I could be wrong - forgot to try this one out)
4. 600 AD - (bridge) I dont think you need to kill skeleton (not boss) to move on, kill Ozzy first will destroy skeletons also (I could be wrong - forgot to check this one out)
5. 600 AD - (masamune mountain) 2 Practicing Outlaw can be avoided
*edit, deleted old #1*
*edit2 - #2 and #5 with SMV link now*
4. 600 AD - (bridge) I dont think you need to kill skeleton (not boss) to move on, kill Ozzy first will destroy skeletons also (I could be wrong - forgot to check this one out)
This can indeed be done, Ozzie's loses control of the deceased if you attack him a few times. However, if I'm correct that doesn't work on the second instance you fight Ozzie & deceased.
Still looking nice, but I wonder would using fire whirl be faster against Zombor than fire punch (or something)? Also Volt Bite works wonders against Nizbel, but maybe that would take too many battles to obtain.
"Kids! Bringing about Armageddon can be dangerous. Do not attempt it in your home."
( Pratchett & Gaiman: Good Omens )
Edit 2: Question time... Why don't you have Crono use his slash or cyclone technique against the giant skeleton guy at the end of the bridge? Does it just not do as much damage as normal attacks? It seems as though you were trying to save your character's MP, but if one of them gets drained of it at the end of the battle anyway, and if it's possible to manipulate who gets drained, what's the point of saving it all up (if that's what you're doing in the first place)? Thanks ^_^
Cyclone is a very time consuming attack (not worth it for the slightly higher attack power vs only one enemy), and Slash is thunder-elemental, which the top part of Zombor absorbs.
ventuz wrote:
3. 600 AD - (bridge) I dont think you need to speak to golden knight to meet his bro (chef), see chef first? (I could be wrong - forgot to try this one out)
I tried avoiding this - you MUST talk to the knight captain first in order to advance the plot.
ventuz wrote:
4. 600 AD - (bridge) I dont think you need to kill skeleton (not boss) to move on, kill Ozzy first will destroy skeletons also (I could be wrong - forgot to check this one out)
How many times must I hit him? If it's more than 3-4, it'll be slower than just taking out the skeletons as I did in the run.
ventuz wrote:
5. 600 AD - (masamune mountain) 2 Practicing Outlaw can be avoided
I'd love to see this - I tried several methods of avoiding this fight, and was unsuccessful.
Tombad wrote:
Still looking nice, but I wonder would using fire whirl be faster against Zombor than fire punch (or something)? Also Volt Bite works wonders against Nizbel, but maybe that would take too many battles to obtain.
Flame Whirl is slightly slower than Fire Punch (Cyclone is a very time consuming move), does quite a bit less damage (Crono's attack is lower than Robo's, and it's based on Flame Toss rather than Fire, which is weaker), and with Robo being the odd man out, he has very little he can use to damage the bottom portion of Zombor (it absorbs Shadow damage, and is resistant to physical attacks).
Volt Bite would take too long to learn. Ayla's skill setup is Kiss (which I learn just before Nizbel) -> Rollo Kick -> Cat Attack, which is what Volt Bite is based off of. I'm still not even sure I'll have Volt Bite before Nizbel II if I run straight through, but I might go ahead and fight just enough battles on the way to pick it up, because I'll likely be in trouble if I don't have a halfway decent lightning attack by that time.
(Edit for ventuz's #2: That's really odd.. must be another of those weird changes made between the Japanese and American versions of the game. When I tried it, if I tried to input the XABY password without learning it in the other section of the factory first, the computer would boot up and then shut down without giving me an opportunity to input the password.)
ah, i have included SMV prev post, if u missed it.
for robo part, i dont know, maybe you didnt get chance to input from using right elevator. (i dont know, never had no-input on america, not sure bout japan's)
for 2 practicing outlaws, walk diagonally sharp
I tend to not keep up with the more in depth threads until I watch the game, so most of the notes I jotted down were referenced by you previously.
The most consistent questionable area is defiintely the critical attacks. Is this still a test movie for you? If so, you should test out every little possibility of this area before the next movie. I know you've tested it a lot, but some other things to keep in mind may be a) when the battle begins, b) if you wait to let an ally move before the one you want to crit, c) if you wait to let an enemy move before the one you want to crit, d) party order, e) moving the cursor around before attacking, ex. not just waiting to select the target.
They are even seldom used when unnecessary. For example, on one of the first imps you fight you crit when it's overkill. Perhaps if you tested what causes crits to NOT happen rather than happen, it may lead you on the right path.
In the forest coming back from 600AD castle, was lucca's shot during the first fight necessary? Could you wait for them to reposition to become affected by the cyclone?
You covered leveling at the bush. I figured it was anticipating the nagas but wasn't sure.
I'm glad to hear you won't be collecting the out of the way items in jail.
The race: did you conclude if you can use L/R the first time around? You mentioned you weren't going to let him pass you in the final version. If you manage this, I'd suggest that you do let him pass you at the last moment, so you can surprise the viewer by boosting by him at the last second.
Agreed that the multiple acid/alkaline fight can be improved. In fact at some point, you have chrono attack a green one(I think these are the acids) when it is at 6 damage. You take some health off, and then robo hits him for 6 anyway. Chrono's attack could have been avoided.
I feel like I remember reading your reasoning for doing this, but couldn't find it. You use the sight cap, right? Why?
That's all I had for questions. This looks great, I only wish it was in English so you could follow the fantastic storyline as well. I think you have a good eye for things which can be more entertaining but are unnecessary, such as running through the two imps kicking the rolypoly rather than around. I also never knew you could run between the masks(two-face is it maybe?) in the prison.
Ice water really crushes everything in Magus' castle, I don't know what you refer to it not working against other than bosses. As long as you hit the jugglers with chrono before casting it, you shouldn't have any problems. Though it really is a huge time difference to get frog to be able to cast water... I guess it's something to test for the final version.
The most consistent questionable area is defiintely the critical attacks. Is this still a test movie for you? If so, you should test out every little possibility of this area before the next movie. I know you've tested it a lot, but some other things to keep in mind may be a) when the battle begins, b) if you wait to let an ally move before the one you want to crit, c) if you wait to let an enemy move before the one you want to crit, d) party order, e) moving the cursor around before attacking, ex. not just waiting to select the target.
They are even seldom used when unnecessary. For example, on one of the first imps you fight you crit when it's overkill. Perhaps if you tested what causes crits to NOT happen rather than happen, it may lead you on the right path.
This is still a test movie. My main goal on this movie is more to make sure that my strategy works and to get an idea of where problem areas are located and what can be improved on, and not necessarily to make it look pretty or to flow perfectly. I'm playing things a little bit safe, as well, and I'm fighting pretty much any fight that can't be avoided and takes a lengthy amount of time to run from. I'm not paying a whole lot of attention to optimization of fights, both regular fights and boss fights.. I won't be spending a whole lot of time on that, either, until I get to the final run.
I've done extensive testing on critical hits, and here's what I know about them so far:
- Things that I know do influence critical hits: Differing order of ally attacks, waiting to let an enemy attack you
- Things that I know do NOT influence critical hits: Time (either by waiting differing lengths of time to start battle or to attack), moving cursor around or entering/cancelling out of menus before attacking, pausing during battle, acquiring chests, performing story-related events in a different order or skipping them entirely
- Sampyla says talking to non-story related NPCs messes with the critical hit formula, but so far I've yet to see anything which suggests that that is the case.
- I've yet to extensively test whether performing different commands in battle influences critical hits, but again, everything I've seen points toward "No".
- Other things I've noticed about critical hits: If the next attack is going to be a critical hit, whoever attacks next gets the critical, and the order in which critical hits occur carries between battles.
I unfortunately don't have the assembly knowledge to go dissecting the ROM, but the best theory I can come up with is that critical hits, damage, etc is based off of a random number list, where each action taken by either yourself or an enemy draws a number from this list. There seems to be very little I can do to alter this list or where this list is accessed.. as much time and headaches I'll save if I am able to manipulate critical hits at will, I don't see the possibility of being able to manipulate luck in order to throw critical hits on every single attack happening in this movie.
Blechy wrote:
In the forest coming back from 600AD castle, was lucca's shot during the first fight necessary? Could you wait for them to reposition to become affected by the cyclone?
Yes, it was necessary, to preserve the rather nice order of criticals I got from the first movie. It may or may not be gone in the final version, depending on the extent that I can manipulate critical hits.
Blechy wrote:
You covered leveling at the bush. I figured it was anticipating the nagas but wasn't sure.
Yeah, those two fights were there to get Flame Whirl so I could take out the Naga-ettes and other monsters in the Cathedral much faster.
Blechy wrote:
The race: did you conclude if you can use L/R the first time around? You mentioned you weren't going to let him pass you in the final version. If you manage this, I'd suggest that you do let him pass you at the last moment, so you can surprise the viewer by boosting by him at the last second.
Nope, you can't use L/R to change perspectives the first time around. Also, my plan for the final movie is to obtain a perfect score of 2370.. if I can pull off both, I'll do it, otherwise I'll probably be taking the perfection over the suspense.
Blechy wrote:
Agreed that the multiple acid/alkaline fight can be improved. In fact at some point, you have chrono attack a green one(I think these are the acids) when it is at 6 damage. You take some health off, and then robo hits him for 6 anyway. Chrono's attack could have been avoided.
I feel like I remember reading your reasoning for doing this, but couldn't find it. You use the sight cap, right? Why?
As mentioned earlier, I'm not spending a whole lot of time optimizing fights in this version - you'll probably see plenty of mistakes similar to that throughout this version of the run. Right now while going through I'm taking the first version of a fight that looks halfway decent and doesn't leave me too scarred for the next fight - this will be corrected in the final version.
Sight cap? I don't have that yet. I'm getting that near the end of the game so I can be protected against Lavos's Chaos attacks.
Blechy wrote:
Ice water really crushes everything in Magus' castle, I don't know what you refer to it not working against other than bosses. As long as you hit the jugglers with chrono before casting it, you shouldn't have any problems. Though it really is a huge time difference to get frog to be able to cast water... I guess it's something to test for the final version.
Sorcerers absorb Water, and Ice Water won't kill Jugglers outright (even though their shield pattern starts on physical, it simply won't do enough damage to knock off all 400+ HP they have).. but after going through a quick non-recorded trip through Magus's castle, I found they're weak enough against physical attacks for Frog to kill them afterwards anyways with the Masamune. But yeah, Ice Water completely destroys everything else in there that's not a boss, and the tech's far too valuable to go without, since there's far more monsters in there that absorb Shadow (and thus Rocket Roll).. I'll definitely be getting Frog magic in the final version.
Anyways, if any of you've got any more questions, keep firing away.. the more I figure out with this test version, the better the final run is going to look.
Alright, it all sounds great. I understand about not optimizing fights due to a test run, I'd do the same.
I improperly named an accessory. By sight cap, I meant the accessory that Lucca comes with which allows you to see enemy HP. I remember seeing the HP for some time, but you may taken it off once you got a later accessory, so disregard that.
Can't wait for the next update.
Oh, that.. the SightScope was still there since I had nothing else better to put in its' place. It will eventually be removed and replaced with something else - at the very latest, it'll be replaced with Crono's SilverStud after the Ocean Palace, so that OmegaFlare doesn't instantly chew through a large portion of Lucca's MP supply.
Alright, I'm finished with my testing.. and I've got my plan for the entire rest of the game all worked out.
Lavos is very easily and very quickly beatable at lv40.. Doors of Doom, Shadow Doom Blaze, and Dreamless all have about the same attack power, and I take ~500-600 damage from each with 80 M.Def.
My equipment for the final battle will be as such:
Magus: DoomScythe/Gloom Helm/Gloom Cape/Blue Rock
Robo: Crisis Arm/Vigil Hat/Moon Armor/Wall Ring
Lucca: Whatever/Sight Cap/ZodiacCape/Gold Stud
This will get everyone protection vs. statuses and 80+ M.Def at lv40 (Magus will be above the others, at 43-44, since he joins at 37). Lucvca's low HP will be a problem, though - I may wind up dropping her Sight Cap for the Taban Helm, upping her M.Def and speed as a sacrifice for losing Chaos immunity, if necessary (in fact, I just might do this, since Lavos 2's attack pattern after the arms are dead is Obstacle (inflicts Chaos on all) -> Shadow Slay (inflicts poison on all, overwriting Chaos) -> Flame Battle -> Shadow Doom Blaze-> Evil Emanation -> stall -> repeat).
Also, this will require me to travel to a couple more places than I originally thought, so here's my new plan for the game after the Blackbird goes down:
12000 BC:
- Get Magus. Switch party to Robo/Magus/Lucca.
600 AD:
- Get Toma's Pop and talk to the repairman of the Northern Ruins to learn his tools have been stolen.
1000 AD:
- Pour Toma's Pop over his gravestone to open up Giant's Claw.
- Get the Tools.
600 AD:
- Go into Giant's Claw, picking up the Sight Cap, Blue Rock, and ZodiacCape.
- Complete the Northern Ruins subquest (everything there dies to Magus's Fire2) and examine the chest with the Nova Armor in it. Optimally, I'll learn Flare here, allowing me to use OmegaFlare.
- Go into Ozzie's Fort, spam OmegaFlare on Super Slash and Flea Plus, and pick up Magus's best equipment and a Speed Tab (likely going on Lucca).
2300 AD:
- Complete the Geno Dome sidequest, taking as many trips on the conveyor belt that are necessary that, while combined with the EXP I get on all these other sidequests, will wind up with Robo and Lucca at lv40, as well as picking up some speed/M.Def bonuses for Robo, the Vigil Hat, an Elixir and a Megalixir, and his Crisis Arm. This step might be moved around somewhere else, Ill have to think about it.
1000 AD:
- Go back to the Northern Ruins and pick up the Moon Armor for Robo.
- Go into the Black Omen, spamming a couple of OmegaFlares onto Giga Mutant, then going about a third of the way through, picking up about 5-6 Megalixirs (Ayla will wind up Charming one or two off the Ruminators, so I might as well stick with her and pick up a Gold Stud off a Flyclops as well.. I may even get a Speed Tab or two off the Panels).
- Hop into Epoch and take a deep breath.
1999 AD:
- Crash Epoch into the head of Lavos 1, taking it out, then let loose with OmegaFlare on Lavos 2 and Lavos Core.
- Enjoy the ending!
I think I'll be ready to continue the run in a couple of days, once I've more fully recovered, and I'm pretty sure I'll wind up with a final time of 3 1/2 to 4 hours once all's said and done.
Tilus, just a question. Why use the japanese version of the game instead of the US version? Maybe it is something i didnt read or else, but with the japanese version i cant read anything in the game...
I'm using the Japanese version of the game to perform the timeattack. The text does go by significantly faster in the Japanese version, so I think that'll be a major timesaver right there.
Since the movie is aimed for those who already know the game (it would be a big spoiler for others, who might want to enjoy the game themselves), it shouldn't matter that the texts are in Japanese.
I also wrote previously these:
Bisqwit wrote:
- the texts go so fast that understanding is not the biggest problem
- the Japanese font renderer might be a little faster, because it has less work to do (always 12 pixels wide)
- to find and demonstrate which game features were different in USA version
- to make something fun to watch for Japanese people :)
Unfortunately this is not the case - I had heard about this before, and tried it out. I tried accessing Giant's Claw while just obtaining Toma's Pop, and I tried accessing Giant's Claw while just entering Toma's grave without pouring the Pop on his grave, and neither time did I get access to Giant's Claw. You MUST pour the Pop on his grave in order to enter.
I thought that you could still go into Giant's Claw, it's just that the name didn't show up when you walked over the cave. Of course, it could be different in the Japanese version.
Alright, slight update from my camp.. I'm sure you're wondering why it's taking so long for me to put together an update.
You can thank Magus and his nighmarish castle of doom for that. =P
Basically, I have to beat Slash (whose 2 forms combined have nearly as much HP as Magus himself!), Flea (who has 4000 HP of his/her/its' own), gain enough TP to learn Heal with Frog, then take out Magus and his nightmarish 6666 HP.. at level 16.. with no decent single target Lightning or Shadow techs at your disposal.
The battle with Magus has two halves - the first half, when attacked he randomly counterattacks with an element spell, after which he's only vulnerable to magic of that element, and the second half, where he just fires off DarkMatter. The second half will be easy - I can just get into a pattern of repeatedly using FireSword with Crono/Lucca and having Frog heal damage.. it's the first half which has been the greatest annoyance. Right now I've knocked off about a fourth of Magus's HP, or about halfway through this half of the battle, but I'm having to do extensive luck manipulation by performing different orders of actions, in order to not waste time and not let Magus use the Lightning or Shadow spell.
And, I'm hoping this battle won't take too much longer.. I've already spent nearly 30 minutes[/i] in that obnoxious castle already! Knowing this, I am definitely not looking forward to Tyrano Lair..
My apologies for breaking into this discussion with a (sort of) off-topic post, but has anyone found the "secret" game in the Tent of Horrors? Apparently, at some point you can find a 200-point game there, which if won, will get another prize of some sort.
Let's see...
There are no dialog strings in the ROM which would hint towards an unseen game.
But I can check the game code...
As far as I know, there are four games:
- Piette/Vicks/Wedge - find one
- Repeat after example
- Stone the monsters
And
- Repeat after example with revised rules (for Crono's sake)
Edit: I've checked now.
There are no secret games in Norstein Bekkler's lab.
Counting in hex, there are 18 objects in Norstein Bekkler's lab:
00 A subroutine (incorporeal)
- Function 0: Maintenance for variables
- Function 3: Runs the repeating game
01 Crono (if exists)
02 Marle (if exists)
03 Lucca (if exists)
04 Robo (if exists)
05 Frog (if exists)
06 Ayla (if exists)
07 Magus (if exists)
08 Giant blue star (will move party member 2 backwards if hit)
09 Actor of the copy game (player character clone)
0A Subroutines (incorporeal)
- Function 0: Checks input in the repeat game
- Function 3: Runs the soldier shuffle
- Function 4: Rewards the won soldier shuffle with a Poyozo doll or cat food
- Function 5: Rewards with a clone or cat food (max. 200 units)
- Function 6: Animates the monsters in the stone game
- Function 7: Charges for the revised clone game
0B Norstein Bekkler
0C,0D,0E Part of the strength test machine (the rocks you toss at the monsters)
0F,10,11 Kilwala (monsters)
12 Poyozo Doll
13 A cat
14 Vicks
15 Wedge
16 Piette
17 Light green bush
Alright, I've beaten Magus, as well as the Black Tyrano. Indeed, Magus was much easier in the second phase of the battle than the first, and going through the Tyrano Lair was even easier.
Unfortunately, I did have to do a bit of power leveling at the door before Nizbel 2 in order to get Ayla Cat Attack, and thus Volt Bite.. it was only 4 additional battles to do so, and it's a heck of a lot faster than poking away at Nizbel's 7000-ish HP with 300-400 damage Napalms from Lucca.
This leaves four bosses left to beat (the Mud Imp, Giga Gaia, Dalton, and the GolemTwins), before I'll reach the Ocean Palace disaster. And, unfortunately, I'm already rapidly approaching the 3 hour mark on the game, and it'll be highly unlikely I'll beat the game in under 4 hours. 4 1/2 hours is my estimate now, at least on this test run, and that too may be a bit on the low side.. oh well.
