Post by zdude255

Posted: 5/25/2009 1:39 AM

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Derakon

Joined: 7/2/2007
Posts: 3960

In the grand scheme of things, 30-40 seconds is not a huge deal. Good luck with the run!

Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.

Posted: 5/25/2009 2:44 AM

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Well that sucks. It probably desynchs because it resets the emulator and not the rom, wich is probably the reason why we have the rule in the first place. If you reset the emulator you can't reproduce the result every time, let alone on different computers. But good to hear that everythign else works. I hope you get the rupee run through termina field hexed in. Good luck.

Posted: 5/25/2009 2:01 PM

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Slowking

Joined: 12/6/2008
Posts: 1193

Yeah MM is a pain. But it's probably still it :p Think about it. The rom in the emulator runs in a fixed enviroment that never changes. Thus every input you make can be reproduced exactly through an input file. The emulator however runs on a computer. A lot of things change all the time. Maybe another programm takes slightly less resources than before or a windows function. Now the reset of Mupen takes a quater of a second longer and viola you have a desynch. And it will only get worse on different computers.

Posted: 5/25/2009 3:51 PM

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Bag_of_Magic_Food

He/Him

Active player (277)

Joined: 5/29/2004
Posts: 5712

But why should the movie file include the time it takes for your system to reload the program? Shouldn't the timing pause then, so the reset can be considered instantaneous?

put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude

Posted: 5/29/2009 3:24 AM

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Comicalflop

Editor, Experienced player (730)

Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA

So yeah, this run of Stone Tower by MrGrunz is the most ninja display of skills I have ever seen Link perform.

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Posted: 6/3/2009 2:50 AM

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RingRush

Experienced player (511)

Joined: 4/14/2009
Posts: 116

Anybody who has been in the #zelda irc knows that a major MM trick was discovered today, via a PM to grunz. We've spent all day (mostly unreal and grunz, with a few others helping) researching, and this is what we've found. First the glitch: 1. Go to the Curiosity shop. 2. Go through the dialogue, selling an item, until you get the point where you can either confirm or deny the sale. 3. Confirm the sale and then immediately press start (mash start if on console). You will open up your start menu. Select any item and place it in the slot of the item you are selling. 4. The item you swapped will now become a bottle. So, what can you do with this? 1. After woodfall, bottle dupe over deku nuts, deku mask, and bow. You now have four bottles, and only have to make one trip each to Pirate's Fortress and Pinnacle Rock. You can also skip the ranch completely. As you still have the quiver, you can still fire arrows, you just need fire arrows (haha...or light arrows). 2. When you perform this glitch, the item you were selling remains in the original bottle, yet you still get rupees for it. For a 100% run, get Gold Dust and perform this trick, switching to an empty bottle every time. You'll get very, very fast rupees, and are conveniently right next to the banker. 3. Turn the ocarina into a bottle. The game now thinks you are on the first cycle. If you head into the field, there will be no enemies or music, just like the first cycle. Useless, but it gives us a look into the checks the game uses to determine cycle. 4. Instead of pausing, if you mash a button for a transformation mask or the ocarina, you will transform / pull out the ocarina instead. This will turn whatever item you chose into a bottle. If you do this with every mask, you can even have yourself permanently stuck as a transformation. We put a lot of effot looking into ways to dupe eggs or rba/ba, but no luck so far. Anyways, the route will have to change slightly, and grunz and slowi will probably do that soon. Lucky for swordless, it seems the first cycle and the first part of the second cycle will not change.

Posted: 6/3/2009 3:45 AM

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Derakon

Joined: 7/2/2007
Posts: 3960

Oh my. This does sound handy. The detours to pick up extra bottles always did annoy me. Would it be worth trying to grab a different item to replace instead of the bow? Pick up a magic bean, maybe, or a convenient mask? I can't remember if the current route calls for firing normal arrows at any point without having wiped out your magic meter first (i.e. for the ST boss). What happens if you dupe a bottle to a bottle? I assume from your last bit (trying to dupe eggs) that the contents don't get transferred. Can you do a similar trick other times you're prompted for items? For example, when giving medicine to Koume (or is it the other sister?)? Or is the curiosity shop special in some way? What happens when you Song of Time after transforming items to bottles?

Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.

Posted: 6/3/2009 7:49 AM

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Slowking

Joined: 12/6/2008
Posts: 1193

Derakon wrote:

Would it be worth trying to grab a different item to replace instead of the bow? Pick up a magic bean, maybe, or a convenient mask? I can't remember if the current route calls for firing normal arrows at any point without having wiped out your magic meter first (i.e. for the ST boss).

We never need the bow that's why picking up an extra item would only cost us time. The only time we need arrows is Odolwa (that's before changing the bow into a bottle) and twinmold (that's done with empty magic and fire arrows).

What happens if you dupe a bottle to a bottle? I assume from your last bit (trying to dupe eggs) that the contents don't get transferred.

Like it was said in the post above. You'll end up with one empty bottle and one with the item. handy as you'll still have the item and get the money for it but it can't duplicate something.

Can you do a similar trick other times you're prompted for items? For example, when giving medicine to Koume (or is it the other sister?)? Or is the curiosity shop special in some way?

That's actually not a bad idea. Would be worth a try... But it's probably not going to be worth it in any run. You can only do it once and then she's off. Since we need 4 bottles we would have to go to the curiosity shop later anyway...

Posted: 6/3/2009 4:25 PM

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Derakon

Joined: 7/2/2007
Posts: 3960

Thanks for answering my questions. For the witch, I was mainly just curious if there was something special about the curiosity shop. Since (IIRC) we don't need to talk to the witch anyway to get to the Deku Palace, she'll not be making an appearance in the run.

Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.

Posted: 6/3/2009 5:15 PM

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Azorae

Player (98)

Joined: 9/27/2007
Posts: 103
Location: Florida

I was playing through the current any% route with the new bottle duplication trick. Everything is great except that if we dupe over the bow and the deku mask, we cannot drop the bee's nest and can't get the hookshot. We need to keep at least one (the bow obviously), so we need to find a different item or mask to get a fourth bottle. Possibly Kafei's Mask?

Posted: 6/3/2009 6:18 PM
(Edited: 6/3/2009 6:44 PM)

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Slowking

Joined: 12/6/2008
Posts: 1193

Oh ok good thinking there. So I think we have a few options: You can actually clone a bottle on an empty C-Slot but that would mean that you couldn't have an item there before or after creating as long as you want to use that bottle. That would lead to a lot of item switching so i think it's out of the question. Other: Great Fairy Mask: probably to long since we would need to watch the NCT introduction scene that we skipped in the first cycle Bremer Mask: If we play SODT at the beginning of cycle 2 that one should be pretty fast to get. Especially since the laundry pool doesn't have an introduction scene Kafeis Mask: Like you said one should also be pretty fast but I don't know when Madame Aroma is there. And the Bremer Mask should be slightly faster. Gibdos Mask: You can glitch into the building and play song of healing. Still laundry pool should be faster. Deku Stick: You could overwrite them and buy them back later. But that would require money and buying 4 sticks probably takes more time than jsut getting the Bremer Mask.

Posted: 6/3/2009 6:32 PM

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Derakon

Joined: 7/2/2007
Posts: 3960

Are magic beans out of the question? We should come fairly close to them while getting the song for the swamp palace, right?

Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.

Posted: 6/3/2009 7:02 PM

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Slowking

Joined: 12/6/2008
Posts: 1193

They are on the other side of the Deku palace. Would take forever to get those.

Posted: 6/3/2009 7:05 PM

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Azorae

Player (98)

Joined: 9/27/2007
Posts: 103
Location: Florida

alright, Bremen Mask seems to be fastest. Here's what I think we have now: First Cycle get 2R in pre-Clock Town area (2/0R) Grandma's Stories to Day 3, Dance with Scarecrow to Night 3, deposit 2R (0/2R) To ECT, do a full run through termina field to WCT (99/2R) Deposit 99R, go to ECT, get Stray Fairy, run through Termina Field to NCT, get 99R, get Magic Meter, deposit 99R (0/200R) Backflip to Clock Tower, get Ocarina and SoT, Play Song of Time Second Cycle Play SoDT, hit Clock Town Owl, get Bremen Mask Withdraw 200R, Buy Bomb Bag + 20 Chus (20B) (20C) (70R) Exit to West Termina Field, ISG-ISS to Fence, Pull out bomb while Sliding, hover over fence with bomb and chu, Slide to GB (17B) (19C) ISS to water, hit Owl, get Zora Mask, Leever Slide to South Bay (16B) (19C) Flying Zora to Fountain, blow up rock with chu, Fairy Fountain warp to Ikana (12B) (10C) Slide to and hit Owl, 5 Bombs from Plant, Recoil Flip with bomb down to water, swim to Swamp and enter Lost Woods (15B) (10C) Get 10R and ISS from Bombchu, Get Bottle (15B) (9C) (80R) Zora ISS to Octorok, sidehop to Deku Palace (take 1 and 1/2 HP Damage) (14B) (9C) ISG-ISS past guards and climb the Palace, Get Sonata + SoS (11B) (9C) Get 4 Deku Sticks on the way to Woodfall Temple and enter Superflip Hover past Gap, Kill Lizarfos with Jumpslash Strat, Get Bow (9B) (8C) Recoil Flip to get OoB, 8 Superflip hovers to boss room, Kill Odolwa (1B) (0C) Warp to CT, Duplicate bottle over Deku Nuts, Deku Mask, and Bremen Mask and sell Red Potion (160R) Buy 20 Bombs and 20 Chus (20B) (20C) (20R) Warp to GB, Swim to Pirate's Fortress Superflip past gap, Get Hookshot and first Zora Egg, bombchu recoil flip to second Zora Egg (18B) (18C) Hookshot to target, jump around slope to third Zora egg, hookshot to target and skip the Pirate Battle for the fourth Zora Egg, warp to Great Bay (15B) (14C) Deposit Eggs, swim to Pinnacle Rock and get the last 3 Zora Eggs Warp to Great Bay, deposit Eggs for NWBN and swim to South Bay Play Zora Pots Game once, go to South Bay Owl, Get 5 Bombs, and enter GBT (120R) (20B) (14C) Superflip past gap and ISS to Flywheel Room (17B 13C) Boss Key Skip, Kill Gyorg, get 5 Bombs from pot (18B) (10C) Zora Grab Ledge and Hookshot to Fairy Fountain, Fairy Fountain Warp to Snowhead (14B) (2C) ISG-ISS up to Snowhead Temple (13B) (2C) Block Skip, Bomb Long Jump in Bridge Room (1/2 Damage) and kill Freezard with sword (12B) (2C) Scarecrow's Song Skip, 2 Bomb recoil Flips to Wizrobe, Beat Wizrobe using Infinite Deku Stick from Bomb Damage, Get Fire Arrows, Hookshot to torch (9B) (2C) Hookshot other torch, superflip hover to snowballs, ISS through the snowballs with a bomb (6B) (1C) Superflip hover to Boss Door, Boss Key Skip, Kill Goht with Superslide into cutscene (2B) (0C) Get 5 Bombs from plant, Warp to CT, Buy 10 Bombs and 20 Chus (17B) (20C) (0R) Warp to Ikana, Pull out Bomb while walking to plant, Get 5 Bombs, ISS up to Stone Tower (20B) (20C) Climb Stone Tower with Mega Flips, enter ST (11B) (13C) HISS over to door, Bomb Staircase + Sidehop strategy past Sun Block (8B) (9C) Get small key and minimize Magic Meter to 4 Fire Arrows and 1 Light Arrow Bomb Staircase + Zora Grab past Sun Block, Get 10 Bombs from Nejirons and take 1/2 Heart of Damage (16B) (6C) Recoil Flips in Updraft Room, Kill Garo's Master with Infinte Deku Stick from Bomb, get Light Arrow and deathwarp (13B) (5C) Invert Stone Tower with Bombchu Recoil Flip and enter Inverted Stone Tower (13B 4C) Bomb Long Jump past first room, Boss Key Skip (8B) (1C) Kill Twimmold with Fire Arrow Strat Warp to CT, Clock Tower early (5B) (0C) Slide to Majora Kid, kill first two cycles of Majora normally, kill 3rd cycle with Infinite Deku Stick from Bomb (3B) (0C) MrGrunz and Slowking, if you want to look this over and correct mistakes, feel free.

Posted: 6/3/2009 8:14 PM

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Slowking

Joined: 12/6/2008
Posts: 1193

could you bold the changes? I'm not able to compare the old and the new route without any clues today. to tired. :D

Posted: 6/3/2009 8:40 PM
(Edited: 6/13/2009 10:09 PM)

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Azorae

Player (98)

Joined: 9/27/2007
Posts: 103
Location: Florida

First Cycle get 2R in pre-Clock Town area (2/0R) Grandma's Stories to Day 3, Dance with Scarecrow to Night 3, deposit 2R (0/2R) To ECT, do a full run through termina field to WCT (99/2R) Deposit 99R, go to ECT, get Stray Fairy, run through Termina Field to NCT, get 99R, get Magic Meter, deposit 99R (0/200R) Backflip to Clock Tower, get Ocarina and SoT, Play Song of Time Second Cycle Withdraw 200R, Buy Bomb Bag + 20 Chus (20B) (20C) (70R) Exit to West Termina Field, ISG-ISS to Fence, Pull out bomb while Sliding, hover over fence with bomb and chu, Slide to GB (17B) (19C) ISS to water, hit Owl, get Zora Mask, Leever Slide to South Bay (16B) (19C) Flying Zora to Fountain, blow up rock with chu, Fairy Fountain warp to Ikana (12B) (10C) Slide to and hit Owl, 5 Bombs from Plant, Recoil Flip with bomb down to water, swim to Swamp and enter Lost Woods (15B) (10C) Get 10R and ISS from Bombchu, Get Bottle (15B) (9C) (80R) Zora ISS to Octorok, sidehop to Deku Palace (take 1 and 1/2 HP Damage) (14B) (9C) ISG-ISS past guards and climb the Palace, Get Sonata + SoS (10B) (10C) Get 4 Deku Sticks on the way to Woodfall Temple and enter Superflip Hover past Gap, kill Lizalfos and get Bow (8B) (9C) Recoil Flip to get OoB, 8 Superflip hovers to boss room, Kill Odolwa (0B) (1C) Warp to CT, ISS to Bremen Mask, Duplicate bottle over Deku Nuts, Deku Mask, and Bremen Mask and sell Red Potion (0B) (0C) (160R) Buy 20 Bombs and 20 Chus (20B) (20C) (20R) Warp to GB, Swim to Pirate's Fortress Superflip past gap, Get Hookshot and first Zora Egg, bombchu recoil flip to second Zora Egg (18B) (18C) Hookshot to target, jump around slope to third Zora egg, hookshot to target and skip the Pirate Battle for the fourth Zora Egg, warp to Great Bay (15B) (14C) Deposit Eggs, swim to Pinnacle Rock and get the last 3 Zora Eggs Warp to Great Bay, deposit Eggs for NWBN and swim to South Bay Play Zora Pots Game once, go to South Bay Owl, Get 5 Bombs, and enter GBT (120R) (20B) (14C) Superflip past gap and ISS to Flywheel Room (17B 13C) Boss Key Skip, Kill Gyorg, get 5 Bombs from pot (18B) (10C) Zora Grab Ledge and Hookshot to Fairy Fountain, Fairy Fountain Warp to Snowhead (14B) (2C) ISG-ISS up to Snowhead Temple (13B) (2C) Block Skip, Bomb Long Jump in Bridge Room (1/2 Damage) and kill Freezard with sword (12B) (2C) Scarecrow's Song Skip, 2 Bomb recoil Flips to Wizrobe, Beat Wizrobe using Infinite Deku Stick from Bomb Damage, Get Fire Arrows, Hookshot to torch (9B) (2C) Hookshot other torch, superflip hover to snowballs, ISS through the snowballs with a bomb (6B) (1C) Superflip hover to Boss Door, Boss Key Skip, Kill Goht with Superslide into cutscene (2B) (0C) Get 5 Bombs from plant, Warp to CT, Buy 10 Bombs and 20 Chus (17B) (20C) (0R) Warp to Ikana, Pull out Bomb while walking to plant, Get 5 Bombs, ISS up to Stone Tower (20B) (20C) Climb Stone Tower with Mega Flips, enter ST (11B) (13C) HISS over to door, Bomb Staircase + Sidehop strategy past Sun Block (8B) (9C) Get small key and minimize Magic Meter to 4 Fire Arrows and 1 Light Arrow Bomb Staircase + Zora Grab past Sun Block, Get 10 Bombs from Nejirons and take 1/2 Heart of Damage (16B) (6C) Recoil Flips in Updraft Room, Kill Garo's Master with Infinte Deku Stick from Bomb, get Light Arrow and deathwarp (13B) (5C) Invert Stone Tower with Bombchu Recoil Flip and enter Inverted Stone Tower (13B 4C) Bomb Long Jump past first room, Boss Key Skip (8B) (1C) Kill Twimmold with Fire Arrow Strat Warp to CT, Clock Tower early (5B) (0C) Slide to Majora Kid, kill first two cycles of Majora normally, kill 3rd cycle with Infinite Deku Stick from Bomb (3B) (0C)

Posted: 6/4/2009 12:17 AM

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Kirkq

Player (208)

Joined: 7/7/2006
Posts: 798
Location: US

Slowking wrote:

Deku Stick: You could overwrite them and buy them back later. But that would require money and buying 4 sticks probably takes more time than jsut getting the Bremer Mask.

Could you just keep one bomb or bombchu and overwrite that before buying more?

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Posted: 6/4/2009 8:05 AM

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bkDJ

Joined: 7/26/2006
Posts: 1215

Kirkq wrote:

Could you just keep one bomb or bombchu and overwrite that before buying more?

That would be perfect since the route states there's exactly 1 bomb left over after Odolwa, so no need for the Bremen mask.

Posted: 6/4/2009 11:08 AM

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MrGrunz

Experienced player (599)

Joined: 2/8/2009
Posts: 656

only thing we could do would be to overwrite bombchus and then buy 20 chus afterwards. that means, that you have 20 chus in your inventory and a equipped bottle but then again, you would be forced to complete the whole fortress without bombchus, what could cost some time again, but if I think about it, maybe we can complete PF only with bombs and never go shopping again afterwards edit: I had a look at our route and overwriting the chus should be the quickest way. it would add only 3 more bomb hovers edit 2: argh, it doesn't work if you use the bottle, the slot gets a bottle again edit 3: it seems to be a millions times quicker to me just to buy a deku stick later in the run instead of getting the bremen mask ;)

Posted: 6/4/2009 2:34 PM

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Azorae

Player (98)

Joined: 9/27/2007
Posts: 103
Location: Florida

The thing is, we have exactly 0 extra rupees. After getting the bottle, we need to use Deku Sticks on Wizrobe 1 and the Garo Master, plus th extra for Infinite Deku Stick, so we need to get 30 more rupees.

Posted: 6/4/2009 4:41 PM

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Derakon

Joined: 7/2/2007
Posts: 3960

Well, according to the route we're selling a red potion, which could be duplicated for more rupees. Do we have the wallet space to be able to use them without making another trip to the banker?

Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.

Posted: 6/4/2009 6:27 PM

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Azorae

Player (98)

Joined: 9/27/2007
Posts: 103
Location: Florida

The Bremen mask takes an extra 35 seconds to get (including SoDT). The only time you can get a Deku Stick without wasting this much time is after Snowhead when you go on the bomb run before STT. So duplicating over the deku stick would be: - An extra Red potion sale for money - A longer Wizrobe 1 fight in SHT - Entering the general store and buying two Deku Sticks after buying bombs and chus for STT. If that combined takes less than 35 seconds, duplicating over the Deku stick is a better choice Also, this is definately important: If we get the Bremen Mask, you need to have 204 rupees in the bank due to the nighttime withdrawl fee. Either that or withdraw 196 at the beginning and collect 4 more rupees somewhere in the route.

Posted: 6/4/2009 10:52 PM

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snorlax

He/Him

Joined: 5/20/2007
Posts: 174
Location: Wisconsin

If you get the Bremen Mask, isn't there a bush with 5 rupees in the Laundry Pool?

Posted: 6/5/2009 10:21 PM

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Slowking

Joined: 12/6/2008
Posts: 1193

Yeah we are not going to use the bremer mask or the deku stick. Both takes too long and with the bremer mask we probably won't make it in time for the curiosity shop. So we are going with empty-C. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjmGT--mOvk&fmt=18 I think getting the route ready will take a little. Grunz is in charge of counting explosives and he found a few savers, but he's on vacation for one week. So next week then. :D