Joined: 2/28/2006
Posts: 2275
Location: Milky Way -> Earth -> Brazil
"Genuine self-esteem, however, consists not of causeless feelings, but of certain knowledge about yourself.
It rests on the conviction that you — by your choices, effort and actions — have made yourself into the
kind of person able to deal with reality. It is the conviction — based on the evidence of your own volitional
functioning — that you are fundamentally able to succeed in life and, therefore, are deserving of that success."
- Onkar Ghate
Bisqwit wrote:
Joined: 2/28/2006
Posts: 2275
Location: Milky Way -> Earth -> Brazil
If you stop babbling about stupid terrorists, maybe.
"Genuine self-esteem, however, consists not of causeless feelings, but of certain knowledge about yourself.
It rests on the conviction that you — by your choices, effort and actions — have made yourself into the
kind of person able to deal with reality. It is the conviction — based on the evidence of your own volitional
functioning — that you are fundamentally able to succeed in life and, therefore, are deserving of that success."
- Onkar Ghate
Bisqwit wrote:
Joined: 2/28/2006
Posts: 2275
Location: Milky Way -> Earth -> Brazil
Idem.
EDIT: And as far as I can read on this page, I'm on topic.
"Genuine self-esteem, however, consists not of causeless feelings, but of certain knowledge about yourself.
It rests on the conviction that you — by your choices, effort and actions — have made yourself into the
kind of person able to deal with reality. It is the conviction — based on the evidence of your own volitional
functioning — that you are fundamentally able to succeed in life and, therefore, are deserving of that success."
- Onkar Ghate
Bisqwit wrote:
Freedom fighters are good. Terrorists are evil. Perspectives on what is good and what is evil are very subjective, there isn't really an objective opinion on this.
The Bible teaches us that we shouldn't kill. It doesn't say we may kill for revenge or to protect our country. The Qur'an is a bit ambigious on that topic afaik, but Muslims seem to be less restricted from killing other people.
This could of course be bad propaghanda from our countries so we have less of a bad conscious for killing those evil men or propaghanda from their countries to motivate their people to kill - or both.
Anyway, Christians just seem to ignore the Bible whenever at war, and hope that God may bless their actions. Doesn't really sound all that Christian to me, they just distort their religion to justify war. I'm almost sure Muslims do the same.
In that regard, I'd say all of them are evil.
Of course they wouldn't. Because rational thinking can lead to results such as "it's good for us to invade all countries with enough resources to make it profitable as long as they can't fight back and we can make up an excuse that will be accepted by most other people".
I've long been of the opinion that there's something inside sane people's minds that makes them not want to commit such acts. But apparently that routine seems to be missing in some individuals.
All these problems would of course be solved by removing religion and just thinking rationally.
All the problems? I don't think so.
A lot of atrocities committed in the history of humanity, even today, have been committed for reasons which had nothing to do with any religion. Sometimes it's about money and resources, sometimes it's about greed or prejudice, sometimes it's simply because people are dicks to each other.
For instance, AFAIK the Rwandan genocide was more politically and racially motivated than religiously. Drug wars around the world (but especially in central America) are motivated by greed. Heck, the two world wars were politically, not religiously, motivated. (Also many atrocities in the second war were racially motivated rather than religiously.)
Of course they wouldn't. Because rational thinking can lead to results such as "it's good for us to invade all countries with enough resources to make it profitable as long as they can't fight back and we can make up an excuse that will be accepted by most other people".
I don't think we agree on what rational is.
Maybe I said the wrong word. Logical? Reasoned?
I don't think so. You can think rational/logical/reasoned while still caring about others, but it also works if you think very selfishly. Thinking logical doesn't prevent you from commiting crimes you won't be punished for, but are to your own benefit. That would require an additional component and that's to care for the rest of humanity too.
I'd say that's an emotional thing or maybe I just don't know why people who think only logically wouldn't do such things. Can you explain it only using logic? "If all people would act that way" doesn't work as an argument in that case imo. Because a logically and selfishly thinking individual could still abuse others without them noticing, knowing it won't influence their behavior at all. He could still play the good guy.
Kuwaga wrote:
I've long been of the opinion that there's something inside sane people's minds that makes them not want to commit such acts. But apparently that routine seems to be missing in some individuals.
Can you explain why rational means fair by default?
I think you refer to a rational ideology that all people should have, and everybody should carry the same one. If that's the case, then I kind of agree. But it's very idealistic. There might still be people who succeed at abusing such a system to their own benefits.
Joined: 11/30/2008
Posts: 650
Location: a little city in the middle of nowhere
A bunch of faggots came to my school last month with the same views as you. Naive and highly optimistic. The bullshit they were feeding us was ridiculous. Apparently we're going to have this massive paradigm shift and we're all going to live happily ever after in an ecologically sustainable world. The truth is that's bullshit. Crime is not suddenly going to erase itself. People will still be greedy and teenagers will still commit acts of vandalism. Although humanism (and religion) is a step you can take to better yourself and the world, your views are not going to be the same as everyone else's, and there is bound to be some conflict. I think we should just be thankful for the world that we're in instead of whining about how it could be better.
Have you considered if preventing immoral individuals or other people who fail (for a lack of smartness) to come to that logical conclusion from passing on their genes would be a valid act of bettering our society?
Their main target was not the civilians, that's the point.
Yeah but if we are honest. They are so bad at what they do they might as well be... A lot of civilian deaths over there could have been prevented if the training of your army was better...
andymac wrote:
A bunch of faggots came to my school last month with the same views as you. Naive and highly optimistic. The bullshit they were feeding us was ridiculous. Apparently we're going to have this massive paradigm shift and we're all going to live happily ever after in an ecologically sustainable world. The truth is that's bullshit. Crime is not suddenly going to erase itself. People will still be greedy and teenagers will still commit acts of vandalism. Although humanism (and religion) is a step you can take to better yourself and the world, your views are not going to be the same as everyone else's, and there is bound to be some conflict. I think we should just be thankful for the world that we're in instead of whining about how it could be better.
Well I can only speak for Germany and the USA, but crime rates have been steadily declining over the past few decades. It's just that you see a lot more in the media now adays because of the 24 hour news channels...
Kuwaga wrote:
Have you considered if preventing immoral individuals or other people who fail (for a lack of smartness) to come to that logical conclusion from passing on their genes would be a valid act of bettering our society?
First of all that would be imoral (moral is nothing religeon has exclusive rights on). But second of all we really don't have to. Like I said crime rates are declining and people are getting smarter (1 IQ point every ten years) all by themselfs.
That there are certain genes that make you evil has been pretty much debunked anyway. First and foremost it's circumstance. The less chance you have in life, the more likely it is that you will become a criminal.
That's why you have a lot more in the USA than in european countrys. The land of the free doesn't really treat the weak members of society well...
Joined: 11/30/2008
Posts: 650
Location: a little city in the middle of nowhere
What I don't like hearing about here is that people are all assuming that everyone will change and that everyone will have the same moral values. There are always exceptions, whether you like it or not. And when there are exceptions to ideals and moral values, there is crime. Although I don't like to think of it that way, It's the truth. There is this minority, who commit atrocities, such as murder, and given a large enough population, there will be a small few people who do not hold the same ideals as everyone else. Think about it. Most people believe in the ideals you presented, I agree with them, yet there is still crime. But I guarantee, for another million years at least there will still be one person willing to commit those horrible acts.
Yeah ofcourse. But we can hope and work towards, that the number of people that commit crimes is as low as possible.
There will always be murders out of passion for example. But we can work towards that murders out of compulsion or need for money decline.
Murders out of compulsion stem from a screwed up psyche. When we start to prevent violence against childreen those numbers will go down.
Murders for money stem from the unfair distributing of resources. Once we distribute them fairer those murders will decline.
The world will never be an utopia, but we can work towards making it as good as we can.
