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GlitchMan's Mega Man 4 in 34:03.38

Main Priorities

  • Aims for fastest time
  • Uses no passwords
  • Abuses programming errors in the game
  • Takes damage (which I did a lot of by the way) to save time
  • Manipulates luck

Emulator Used

I originally used FCEU 0.98.28 at the time I recorded this but then converted it to fm2 format on FCEUX 2.1.2-interim so that I could look at the lag counter and see how much lag each stage had. Luckily for me the conversion worked.

The History of My Speed Run/My History of Mega Man TASing

Being my first Mega Man TAS submission, I decided that I wanted to go over how it all started. Being such a big fan of Mega Man games I came across Mega Man TASing after looking up gameplay movies of it on youtube.com back in mid-2007 which I thought was interesting to watch seeing how fast a game of Mega Man can be beaten. I have been watching those speedruns of Mega Mans 1-6 on vision.ameba.jp (it is so convenient because it has TASes of numerous Mega Man games on there). I TASed NES Mega Man games ever since January 2008 (starting with Mega Man 6) and have just been getting better ever since. I began to TAS this one in the summer of 2008 after seeing the published run the year before which inspired me to do my own run of this game and this run was the result of it. This TAS took me three months to complete and I finished this in November of 2008. I wasn't sure if I should submit it or not but then I decided "You know what? It's been a while since there has been a new Mega Man 4 run. Sure it's not perfect but I'll go ahead and submit it anyway to give them a new and improved Mega Man 4 TAS."

New Glitches/Tricks I Used

I made more use of the chargeable Mega Buster during the stages which helped me to save time in my movie. Another thing I took advantage of is the one frame movement after the boss's gate closes and I noticed that the '06 movie didn't take advantage of this. There is a glitch where after climbing a ladder that is right next to a wall I slide, go the opposite direction for one frame, then start the slide again which saves 1 frame each time and there are many opportunities for this throughout the game.

The Speed Run

I saved exactly 31 seconds off of the June 2006 TAS due to better sliding opportunities and lag reduction techniques along with some other time savers that will soon be explained.

Pharaoh Man

The first two rooms of this stage: I use the Mega Buster in this part because it kills the enemies faster for reduced lag. I also minimized the lag by luck-manipulating the flying enemies into dropping only one bullet on the screen at a time.
From the checkpoint on, I used better sliding techniques to reduce a lot of lag in this stage and killed enemies at the right time so that lag doesn't build up where it can easily be avoided.
I improved the uncharged shot in the boss fight. I missed a glitch that could have saved 70-80 frames which was jumping in the center of the room right when the ending music played.

Bright Man

For this stage I used the same strategy as in Pharaoh Man's stage combined with some new strategies. I didn't switch to the balloon right at the start of the second room because I needed to kill enemies to reduce lag.
For the bossfight I used the Pharaoh Shot glitch where Mega Man charges up a Pharaoh Shot and slides then throws an uncharged Pharaoh Shot as soon as the slide stops. This causes him to have two Pharaoh Shots above his head at the same time (he can have up to three). This saved a lot of time on this boss because there is no waiting time for charging up.

Ring Man

In the ladder climbing section of this stage I used a strategy where I jump off the ladder, throw a balloon, and jump on it to save some climbing time. I kill the enemies after the second miniboss so that I can get in more sliding and reduced lag. I also needed to collect small powerups for my weapon or else I won't have any to use against Ring Man. The Pharaoh Shot glitch is used on Ring Man but I couldn't find a way to position him so that time isn't wasted on the energy balls disappearing off the screen after he is killed.

Dust Man

I discovered a trick where the shield enemies can be killed at the front so I used Pharaoh Shot against them because this type of enemy only requires to shots of it to be killed. I take damage off Dust Man to get him to stop using his vacuum which makes him invincible.

Skull Man

Instead of switching to the Ring Boomerang which I thought was slower, I kept the balloon because not only does it save almost 80 frames but I can save tons of climbing time with the Balloons. I also pulled off a zipping glitch with the Balloon near the end of the first room. In the last room with the big red sky and lava pits below (that's how red it is) I took damage off the last Skeleton Joe (that's actually what it's called; look it up on megaman.wikia.com; too off subject, sorry) at the end but I'm not sure if this saved time or not.
For the boss fight, my main strategy was to luck-manipulate Skull Man into keeping his shield on for the shortest possible amount of time. He responds to B button and left/right D-pad movement. I also needed to get the Dust Crusher particles off the screen as soon as possible so that I could fire another one.

Dive Man

I don't switch to the Flash Stopper in this stage and I figured that would take too much time. I also took a different route at the beginning of the stage while killing enemies which saved some time. I think that taking damage was made up for with the huge amount of sliding frames gained throughout the stage. Boss fight was basically the same as the old run.

Drill Man

I switch to the Balloons to save a lot of climbing time for the first two rooms then I switch to Flash Stopper. On Drill Man, I take damage while sliding during the explosions to reduce lag.

Toad Man

Not really any optimization here other than less lag and better physical movement. Once again, I take damage to reduce lag from the explosion (this time I'm using the weapon so I have control over it).

Dr. Cossack Stage 1

This is where the charging up came in handy (the first room) and because of it I get more frames of sliding speed as opposed to walking speed. The room with the spiked walls sliding up and down the ladders was really difficult because there was so many of them to not take damage from and lag to avoid but I got through it just fine. Not much I could do about the giant robot in the next room. The boss fight was the same only this time I jump during the explosion to reduce lag. Jumping and not moving reduces lag in NES Mega Man games.

Dr. Cossack Stage 2

I make better use of the Balloon item because of the trick I used back in Ring Man's stage where I jump off the ladder to use the Balloon. This came in handy because I was able to climb up the ladders using Balloons.

Dr. Cossack Stage 3

I reduced lag in this auto-scroll stage by having Mega Man jump over the edge of the screen to the point where his sprite disappears. I also didn't switch to Ring Boomerang just to fill up two bars of it. The first time watching the other run when it did that I wasn't sure what happened. The Pharaoh Shot trick once again saves time in this boss fight but only for the first Cockroach Twin (the second one was at the bottom on spikes and there was no way I was going down there!).

Dr. Cossack Stage 4

I found a faster way to maneuver Mega Man through the walls while he is in his sliding mode. Pixelation has to be adjusted then I can alternate left and right every frame which is twice as fast as the previous run. In my battle against Cossack I used the uncharged long-distance shot technique which saved a little bit of time.

Dr. Wily Stage 1

I don't take damage off the Met in the third room like the old run did. At the end of the underwater portion I switch to the Balloons as opposed to the Rush Jet which has the Rush animation you have to wait an additional 30-40 frames for. For the boss fight I tried so many ways to get rid of that long waiting sequence where you have to wait for the Giant Met to pop back up but I couldn't find a way. I even tried using the Pharaoh Shot glitch but the weapon kept bouncing off its helmet unless it was up in the air.

Dr. Wily Stage 2

Same as the old run but with improved movement and cutting back on the lag.

Dr. Wily Stage 3

This time I stick with my regular weapon instead of switching to Drill Bomb because I wanted Pharaoh Man to be killed first so that I don't have to waste a weapon switch by going to another weapon then coming back to it. This helps because I don't waste any weapon HP. I took this route for boss re-fights: Pharaoh-Toad-Dive-Skull-Drill-Bright-Ring-Dust. During Dust Man's fight I made use of a Ring Boomerang twice which saves me from having to get a small power-up for this weapon; I do the same for the first form in the Wily boss fight.

Dr. Wily Stage 4

Nothing to mention about this stage except that I charge up on some of the caterpillar enemies so that I can get more sliding time in. The Pharaoh Shot for the boss in this stage is used differently in this run than the 2006 run. I defeat Dr. Wily right in the center of the screen which reduces time even after the movie! Not sure if that matters or not but I just thought I would add that... :)

Possible Improvements

  • Using 4 uncharged shots against Pharaoh Man instead of just 1 could save time because it takes 92 frames for each charged shot and this means I need no more than 30 frames to make an uncharged shot to charge back up.
  • Instead of going to Bright Man after Pharaoh Man, I should consider going to Drill Man instead so that I get the Rush Jet. Using it in Skull Man's level would save about 4 seconds off of this run. Also, using charged Pharaoh Shot on Drill Man does the same amount of damage as his actual weakness and because I have the Pharaoh Shot glitch it won't lose me that much time.
  • Maybe I should have switched straight to Dust Crusher instead of the Mega Buster for the boss fight in Wily Stage 1 (weapon switches cost nearly 80 frames).
  • It could probably be faster to switch straight from the Mega Buster to Rush Jet in Wily Stage 2 (another weapon switch saved).
  • Place the bosses closer to the center when killing them in order for the energy balls to disappear off the screen faster.
  • Jump in the center after defeating a boss when the ending music plays. This trick can save 30-40 frames in six stages and 70-80 frames in Pharaoh Man's stage.
  • Use Pharaoh Shot on the Pharaoh Man boss re-fight in Wily 3.
  • Find more ways to minimize lag and discover more glitches and newer techniques.
  • Find a way to get past long "waiting points" such as the second hippo in Ring Man's stage, the boss in Cossack 2, and the Giant Met in Wily 1.

Special Thanks/Closing Remarks

I want to thank everyone on this board for providing many cool glitches and movies of glitches of their own, finding my 34-minute "WIP" on microstorage ^_^", and your support and encouragement in helping me make this TAS. This is my first official Mega Man submission and it has been an amazing experience TASing this game!
Suggested frame shot: frame 122603 which is the last frame of the movie! :D
Edit: Okay, maybe that wasn't the exact screen shot I was talking about but the other one in Bright Man's stage looks better.
I think I have pretty much covered everything that needs to be said about this run.
Enjoy the speedrun!!!
Nach: I enjoyed watching this run. However, some of it looked a bit sloppier than it should have been, and I think this run can be improved quite a bit. Possibly even more time can be shaved off of this run than this run did to the existing one. I look forward to your next submission for this game, which I understand is already in the works. I am rejecting this run as per Judges' Guidelines: "However, if the submitted movie is clearly improvable as well, it (usually) should be rejected just as a non-published submission might be".
Nach: Here's the video to watch directly: (Flowplayer module removed)
Nach: Being an enjoyable run to a popular game, this was a great run to force us to reexamine our rules. The decision on this is now pending our judges coming up with a new set of rules. Hopefully the new rules will allow this run to be published.
Nach: We have a new clause in our rules. This run is now accepted as an excellent improvement to an already published run.

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Posted: 1/2/2010 1:58 AM
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moozooh
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adelikat wrote:
Might be worth pointing out that this movie is known to be improvable by at least 30 seconds due to new glitches, routes, optimizations. It is actually in the rules that such a movie should be rejected despite being an improvement to an existing movie. I didn't write this rule, but I assume it is there to prevent many small improvements to the same movie from clogging the queue. I've always been on the fence about this rule though and have many times opposed the rejection of such movies. I think the line should be a subjective one. If the movie is a significant improvement (not just about completion time, but as far as having new tricks/glitches/etc) that perhaps it warrants publication despite known improvements.
It might also be worth pointing out that, by the time this movie was created, it would have been considered optimal by general standards. For a not-so-well-versed person who doesn't know about recent MM4 developments this is as good as it gets. What I want to say is that there is no sloppy play, and it makes this case notably different from, for instance, OoT any% submissions that omitted the tricks known at the time due to various reasons that can be combined under an umbrella term "sloppy play".
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Posted: 1/2/2010 1:59 AM
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GlitchMan
Experienced player (634)
Joined: 8/28/2008
Posts: 443
Time/SpaceMage wrote:
Still watching, but something caught my eye. In Ring Man's stage on the screen before the spring miniboss, you slide off the edge to drop onto that screen. Is it faster than jumping off in that situation?
Yes. I even compared it to normally jumping off and it is faster.
Posted: 1/2/2010 2:02 AM
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GlitchMan
Experienced player (634)
Joined: 8/28/2008
Posts: 443
t3h Icy wrote:
I don't mean to be rude in asking, but when should we be expecting a fully optimal run?
Sometime by this coming up summer! If not that, then by the following autumn/fall break! :)
Zurreco wrote:
t3h Icy wrote:
I don't mean to be rude in asking, but when should we be expecting a fully optimal run?
I mean, you could just copy/paste the majority of this run into a new run that uses up to date tricks if you really wanted. But that's besides the point...
I'm not sure. There might be a chance that the movie would randomly desync due to frames of lag if it is copy/pasted. That's why I'm not big on that.
Posted: 1/2/2010 1:39 PM
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Kirkq
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Joined: 7/7/2006
Posts: 798
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I do agree with moozooh's last post for the most part. I just want to clarify one thing. Is this run faster or equal to the published run in all comparable segments, boss fights, boss fadeouts etc? If there are parts improved and parts that obviously lost frames by not using tricks from the published version, I will have to vote no. The run shouldn't take a step backwards. If this run is entirely a step forward from the published run based on the knowledge available in 2008, I vote yes. I think publishing this with the explicit statement that it was created in late 2008 should rid any stigma from the publication. I'm sorry your hard work is providing controversy, Glitchman. Your run is good, and we all appreciate seeing it, we just have to form standards to publish runs by. This run is a bit of a strange circumstance, because no one (to my knowledge) has ever submitted a run so late from creation after so many new techniques were discovered. Regardless of whether or not this is accepted, we're all looking forward to more of your work in the future.
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Posted: 1/2/2010 1:53 PM
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Bisqwit
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NitroGenesis wrote:
And I think that it's a rule or something that if you know your TAS can be improved not to submit it.
This is just my opinion, but I think someone a long time ago said that TASVideos is about publishing TAS entertainment, or something to that effect. Is this movie not entertaining to watch? A movie is better than no movie. The only circumstances where I think it is reasonable to reject a movie for it lacks the use of a known trick but is still quite entertaining, is if A) it harms the entertainment greatly (such as failing to run, -cough-), or B) a replacement movie is not too big effort to create (i.e. it could be expected to be finished in another week).
Posted: 1/2/2010 3:47 PM
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p0rtal_0f_rain
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Voting yes, indefinitely. I like the glitches, they always catch my attention. ^_^
Posted: 1/2/2010 4:18 PM
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NitroGenesis
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We all like it GlitchMan so don't cancel it. It does improve on the current movie, so it should be published. But it would be great to see one with the glitches & tricks GlitchMan noted + the ones that were discovered after.
YoungJ1997lol wrote:
Normally i would say Yes, but thennI thought "its not the same hack" so ill stick with meh.
Posted: 1/3/2010 2:36 AM
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TASVideosGrue
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Posted: 1/3/2010 6:37 AM
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GlitchMan
Experienced player (634)
Joined: 8/28/2008
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Ooh...Okay I guess that wasn't a good enough improvement. :O I knew I should've submitted this sooner or improve the boss route. That's it!!! I'm definitely going all out on finding Mega Man glitches!! As Mega Man would say, "I'm going to defy the laws of physics!"
Posted: 1/3/2010 10:11 AM
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Nach
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Excellent :) I believe the boss route needs improvement. Also, in Cossack's stages, there were more places where you could've taken advantage of the balloon or rush coil than you did. Obviously this has to be carefully planned with refills, but I think the situation can be improved. Takes ~21:55 as an example. I didn't test this, but if you were damaged and were able to walk on spikes, could you get past the whales in Dive Man's stage sooner?
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Posted: 1/3/2010 10:52 AM
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Baxter
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Joined: 5/31/2004
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TAS of 2013 SNES TAS of 2013 Speedy TAS of 2007 Innovative TAS of 2007
I think this run shouldn't be rejected: - The technical quality is very good - It is a significant improvement over the previous movie - It will take quite a lot of time before an improvement is finished 27 yes votes, 1 meh and 0 no votes also should have to count for something.
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Posted: 1/3/2010 12:03 PM
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Raiscan
Joined: 11/11/2006
Posts: 1235
Location: United Kingdom
Bisqwit wrote:
NitroGenesis wrote:
And I think that it's a rule or something that if you know your TAS can be improved not to submit it.
This is just my opinion, but I think someone a long time ago said that TASVideos is about publishing TAS entertainment, or something to that effect. Is this movie not entertaining to watch? A movie is better than no movie. The only circumstances where I think it is reasonable to reject a movie for it lacks the use of a known trick but is still quite entertaining, is if A) it harms the entertainment greatly (such as failing to run, -cough-), or B) a replacement movie is not too big effort to create (i.e. it could be expected to be finished in another week).
I agree completely with this. As such I also agree with Baxter. I'd also like to add my personal feelings on the matter of rejecting an improvement to a published movie. TASvideos strives on improvement and obsoletion in order to better itself. The fact that we have entertaining, faster runs being rejected because improvements may or may not be possible is a sad state of affairs, particularly if it results in leaving a much slower run up. That said, I do disagree with publishing submissions that are clearly unoptimized all over..
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Posted: 1/3/2010 8:19 PM
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GlitchMan
Experienced player (634)
Joined: 8/28/2008
Posts: 443
This run was pretty out of place and it did look sloppy at points. At the time I didn't have the lag counter so it was hard to tell whether something saved more time or not and where frames of lag were even though I had frame by frame motion but I could have skipped over that frame of lag and it could remain unnoticed. I did read the comments at the end of my movie summary. This could have qualified as being better but it didn't differ enough from the old run and it became blatantly obvious that time could be saved. There was too much pressure in whether I should submit my run or not. At least they enjoyed watching the movie. :)
Posted: 1/3/2010 9:12 PM
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True
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The facts, however, that * an inferior run is what is currently now visible to the public * it is unknown the wait time before a significantly superior run is available * an old but recently submitted run that beats it by a fair amount of time and does show off new tricks mean that this is rejected? And that's natural here? Looks "sloppy?" All of the other improvements thrown away, because it "looks sloppy?" Hm...
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Posted: 1/3/2010 9:54 PM
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Bablo
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Joined: 10/17/2005
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I don't agree with Nach here. This really shouldn't be rejected. While it lacks some new techniques to make it faster, it is an entertaining and very well optimized run. The quality is higher than a lot of published TASes. Eventhough it could be improved, we aren't exactly going forward for not publishing this. There is still a slow mm4 TAS published on the site that really begs for an obsoletion. Also it's not like we would get a new mm4 TAS anytime soon; it might take a long time, as Glitchman is known to have other projects too. A lot of people will miss out on ever seeing this run if it gets rejected. Publishing it, however, gives our general viewers new content and a fantastic run over an old and 30 seconds slower TAS. It's a pretty popular game(series) too, and deserves an update.
Nach wrote:
However, some of it looked a bit sloppier than it should have been, and I think this run can be improved quite a bit. Possibly even more time can be shaved off of this run than this run did to the existing one.
I dare you to spot sloppiness in this TAS.
Nach wrote:
I believe the boss route needs improvement.
Posts like this shouldn't be made unless you actually give some information on how to improve it. Also if you haven't got information, which I believe is the case here.
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Posted: 1/4/2010 2:22 AM
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GlitchMan
Experienced player (634)
Joined: 8/28/2008
Posts: 443
I know...I don't get how it was sloppy either. :( I spent three whole months on this and this is what it gets. I knew what I was doing (except in some lag issues). Maybe I should've thought twice before using "convert to fm2" option in FCEUX 2.1.2-interim.
Posted: 1/4/2010 2:26 AM
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GlitchMan
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Oh sure! NOW SOMEONE VOTES NO AFTER IT GOES IN THE GRUEFOOD PILE!!! >:(
Posted: 1/4/2010 2:26 AM
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adelikat
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GlitchMan wrote:
quaddruple posting
Sometimes the sight runs slow, or even gives an error code. In all cases, your post likely went through and the error was in displaying it. Please quit posting over and over in this situation. Wait, then check to see if your post went through. kthx And for the record, I don't agree with this rejection either. And for another record, why does converting it to .fm2 have anything to do with anything? O_o
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Posted: 1/4/2010 2:30 AM
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GlitchMan
Experienced player (634)
Joined: 8/28/2008
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adelikat wrote:
And for another record, why does converting it to .fm2 have anything to do with anything? O_o
Maybe they could have thought "You know, it's on a newer NES emulator. Why couldn't this TAS look better than it already does?"
Posted: 1/4/2010 2:33 AM
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adelikat
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GlitchMan wrote:
Maybe they could have thought "You know, it's on a newer NES emulator. Why couldn't this TAS look better than it already does?"
Well, that' snot what happened. And the emulator used should not effect things like that anyway. Also, the reason it was rejected is because of the rule quoted in the rejection comment. Known improvements are grounds for rejection. It isn't like this was a hidden rule nor a rarely used one (I've seen it employed many times). However, it is a rule that I think it worth taking a 2nd look at.
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Posted: 1/4/2010 5:31 AM
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mmbossman
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GBx TAS of 2008
This type of decision is the essence of what drives away promising TASers. I have not watched this, but the fact that it is a major improvement to a published movie that isn't OoT means that it can't be as sloppy as claimed by Nach. EDIT: The longer I'm a judge, the more I learn to distrust statements containing phrases like "this *should* be faster" without an accompanying proof of concept. Particularly when it's used in such a discouraging manner as this situation.
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Posted: 1/4/2010 6:51 AM
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True
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mmbossman wrote:
This type of decision is the essence of what drives away promising TASers.
On the contrary - I am working on one TAS now and will probably start on a couple more, and any time I can, I'll make them look as "sloppy" as possible, whatever that means. The sloppier, the better. As has been stated, maybe there's a problem with that rule when an inferior run can stay published, a superior run can get rejected, and a far superior run is possibly a year or more in the future. But no, the rules are words of your deity! How many judges does it make it now that don't like this decision? Welcome to NachVideos.
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Posted: 1/4/2010 1:39 PM
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moozooh
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Drang Nach TASVideos!™ The "known improvements" rule should be abolished as a rule because at least 90% of the published movies have had known improvements at the time of submission. It fails as a rule, and this submission is a testament to its failure. Another point to consider is that controversial rejections should be handled by judges who know at least something about the stuff they reject. "I think I see an improvement here" is such a poor excuse I don't even know what to say about it.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Posted: 1/4/2010 5:10 PM
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FatRatKnight
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I will add my voice against this rejection as well. The one this run should obsolete, by all intents and purposes, has more "known improvements" than this run. And proven by this run that the older one has possible improvements, by virtue of this run being faster. And by a significant margin. Why invoke the rule? Why should the rule apply to this run and not the old one? And how do you know there's going to be, within a reasonable time-frame, that an improvement will come? Why invoke the rule? If it's formality, then it's not a good form if it's bringing up this sort of storm on this forum. Rules can always change. Why should the rule apply to this run and not the old one? If your answer is knowledge, the fact that no one knew of improvements back then, then why should a factor outside of either run call for a rejection? And how do you know there's going to be, within a reasonable time-frame, that an improvement will come? I don't honestly expect a good answer unless the author knows himself or herself well. Or you, the judge, work on the run yourself. If the moment the next run will be submitted is indefinite, then what are we doing without the best run in the meantime?
Posted: 1/4/2010 5:56 PM
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Derakon
Joined: 7/2/2007
Posts: 3960
All I care about here is that the run looked good and was faster than the old one. What more do we need? If there was a reasonable expectation that a new run would be done in a week, then I could see holding off on publishing, because that's getting into framewars territory. But I don't see any reason to not publish this.
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