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Posted: 1/11/2010 4:42 AM
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Mr._Kelly_R._Flewin
Joined: 5/29/2004
Posts: 757
FinalFighter, Shinryuu... um.. did either of you guys work for Capcom or something? The way you both are absolutely picking through this game, it was almost as if you guys helped code it. :) Absolutely incredible findings as always! And if you guys don't work for Capcom.. they should be coming for you both to test Mega Man 10! Mr. Kelly R. Flewin
Mr. Kelly R. Flewin Just another random gamer ---- <OmnipotentEntity> How do you people get bored in the span of 10 seconds? Worst ADD ever.
Posted: 1/11/2010 3:38 PM
(Edited: 8/26/2010 5:07 PM)
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finalfighter
Active player (276)
Joined: 4/20/2004
Posts: 219
Location: Japan,Tokyo
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I found the super glitch for MM1. :P If it succeeds, this technique will become a very big saving. What is it? It is "DelayStageClear"! The true colors,Level-end(Object75orF5) is called. http://www.yuko2ch.net/rockman/rockman-13-clear.avi The probability might be the highest low. Perhaps, it is not possible to use it in all stages. It should be a stage to which the enemy changes since the bank is changed. It might be possible in BombmanStage, Wily1, and Wily2.
Posted: 1/11/2010 3:39 PM
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Bisqwit
Editor, Active player (297)
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Location: Arzareth
In other words, you are nearing the situation where the game is completed right after the title screen, right? ;)
Posted: 1/11/2010 4:27 PM
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Bablo
Player (224)
Joined: 10/17/2005
Posts: 399
Oh hahahahahahaha. Words... Not found.
<adelikat> I've been quoted with worse
Posted: 1/11/2010 4:31 PM
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Baxter
Skilled player (1409)
Joined: 5/31/2004
Posts: 1821
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Whoah! If that can be used in most stages, it will probably not add to the entertainment value of the movie... would this mean two categories?
http://tasvideos.org/Baxter.html
Posted: 1/11/2010 5:35 PM
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Noxxa
They/Them
Moderator, Expert player (4108)
Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4089
Location: The Netherlands
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Baxter wrote:
Whoah! If that can be used in most stages, it will probably not add to the entertainment value of the movie... would this mean two categories?
"Extremely Glitched" and "Even More Extremely Glitched"?
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa <dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects. <Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits <adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
Posted: 1/11/2010 6:14 PM
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finalfighter
Active player (276)
Joined: 4/20/2004
Posts: 219
Location: Japan,Tokyo
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Thanks to everyone. It is the current investigation :P ElecMan glitch can not use. IceMan DelayWaterCurrent FireMan glitch can not use. BombMan DelayStageClear GutsMan glitch can not use. CutMan glitch can not use. Wily1 DelayStageClear http://www.yuko2ch.net/rockman/rockman-14re.avi Wily2 Perhaps,DelayStageClear can not use. but DelayDeath can use. http://www.yuko2ch.net/rockman/rockman-15.avi Wily3:glitch can not use. Wily4:glitch can not use.
Posted: 1/12/2010 12:12 AM
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Dwedit
He/Him
Joined: 3/24/2006
Posts: 692
Location: Chicago
The movies desync if you use the New PPU instead of the Old PPU.
Posted: 1/12/2010 4:03 AM
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GlitchMan
Experienced player (633)
Joined: 8/28/2008
Posts: 443
Oh, man! These newfound glitches is seriously going to blow the old Mega Man run out the water!! :D You are all awesome at finding this stuff!!!
Posted: 1/12/2010 12:07 PM
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Mitjitsu
He/Him
Banned User
Joined: 4/24/2006
Posts: 2997
TAS of 2007 N64 TAS of 2007
When can we expect to see the next installment?
Posted: 1/15/2010 10:34 PM
(Edited: 1/15/2010 10:39 PM)
Quote
finalfighter
Active player (276)
Joined: 4/20/2004
Posts: 219
Location: Japan,Tokyo
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When NewPPU is used,it becomes impossible to use DelayStageClear in BombManStage . This is because the content written in $2006+X by the timing is different. $2006+X:Memory used when glitch occurs,and it is PPU IO port. If NewPPU is near a real machine, perhaps ,We think that we should not to use the glitch in BombManStage. However, the improvement included in our TAS. DelayStageClear can be used in other stages. Because the memory of a different place is read , DelayStageClear is possible in Wily1 and DelayWaterCurrent is possible in IceManStage also by NewPPU. We ask other TAS players. 1:Which PPU near a real machine? 2:Should we not use the glitch with BombManStage?
Posted: 1/15/2010 10:36 PM
(Edited: 1/15/2010 10:41 PM)
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Shinryuu
Experienced player (544)
Joined: 5/12/2005
Posts: 707
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finalfighter wrote:
When NewPPU is used,it becomes impossible to use DelayStageClear in BombManStage . This is because the content written in $2006+X by the timing is different. $2006+X:Memory used when glitch occurs,and it is PPU IO port. If NewPPU is near a real machine, perhaps ,We think that it is necessary not to use the glitch in BombManStage. Because the memory of a different place is read in Wily1, DelayStageClear is possible also by NewPPU. We ask other TAS players. 1:Which PPU near a real machine? 2:Should we not use the glitch with BombManStage?
This is the latest news and I got confused by New PPU and Old PPU's actions behind Bomb Man's "DelayStageClear" glitch. I hope there is some kind of solution to this problem. With New PPU everything works but not "BombStageClear", With "Old PPU" everything works because it uses more PPU intead of what it uses in Wily 1. So let me hear your words about this case.
Posted: 1/15/2010 10:37 PM
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Bablo
Player (224)
Joined: 10/17/2005
Posts: 399
NewPPU isn't exactly a real NES either, so just ignore it. We want to see those glitches in action. Also it's more fair to use same setting as Deign had when obsoleting his run.
<adelikat> I've been quoted with worse
Posted: 1/15/2010 10:48 PM
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Kirkq
Player (210)
Joined: 7/7/2006
Posts: 798
Location: US
I don't really know the technicalities, but the emulator settings should 'best represent' how the hardware would process it.
finalfighter wrote:
We ask other TAS players. 1:Which PPU near a real machine? 2:Should we not use the glitch with BombManStage?
Use the PPU that is closest to a real machine, and exploit the game as much as possible based on this 'best representation' we have of the hardware. I have no knowledge of PPU accuracy though.
Bablo wrote:
just ignore it.
- Disagree.
Twitch Stream, Twitter, Youtube, TASVideos Profile
Posted: 1/15/2010 11:39 PM
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adelikat
He/Him
Emulator Coder, Site Developer, Site Owner, Expert player (3570)
Joined: 11/3/2004
Posts: 4754
Location: Tennessee
TASer of 2010 NES TASer of 2010 DS TASer of 2010 Arcade TAS of 2010 NES TASer of 2008 NES TAS of 2008 Funny TAS of 2008 TASer of 2007 NES TASer of 2007 Funny TAS of 2007
Is there anyway to see if this glitch is possible on Nintendulator or Nestopia. These are more accurate emulators and would serve as a good reference to help clarify this issue. From what I read, it doesn't sound easy to just recreate this stuff without lua tools though. If the New PPU is more accurate. Plain and simple. If it can't be done with the new PPU that is a pretty big indicator that it might not be possible on a real NES at all. If the glitch is simply exploiting the flaws in the old PPU, then it will not be allowed. We strive to achieve what is theoretically possible on a real NES. Using emulator flaws goes against this goal.
It's hard to look this good. My TAS projects
Posted: 1/15/2010 11:58 PM
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finalfighter
Active player (276)
Joined: 4/20/2004
Posts: 219
Location: Japan,Tokyo
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Thanks to Mr. adelikat ;) I also think that we should not use it if the glitch of BombManStage is impossible by a real NES. I will use Nestopia to confirm whether to operate with a real machine. I temporarily rewrite(test hack) the ROM and, I might be able to examine BombStageClear glitch at Nestopia.
Posted: 1/16/2010 11:14 AM
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finalfighter
Active player (276)
Joined: 4/20/2004
Posts: 219
Location: Japan,Tokyo
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I had the BANK number change ROM and made a mistake. . As a result, Nestopia shows the same result as OldPPU of FCEUX. The enemy who appeared well with NewPPU did not appear either. Next, I will use Nintendulator to test. :)
Posted: 1/16/2010 12:50 PM
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finalfighter
Active player (276)
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Posts: 219
Location: Japan,Tokyo
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The investigation was completed. 1:FCEUX(NewPPU) A decided enemy appears. 2:FCEUX(OldPPU) and Nestopia Various objects appear. 2emulators,Almost the same result. 3:Nintendulator(NTSC,FrameSkip 0) The object doesn't appear. Graphic becomes strange. I have been perplexed to another result of Nintendulator. :( Which selection should we do?
Posted: 1/16/2010 1:45 PM
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Shinryuu
Experienced player (544)
Joined: 5/12/2005
Posts: 707
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Also there is a possibility that we would make two versions or just first one on Old PPU in a respect of previous author settings. Elec-Ice-Fire-Bomb-Guts-Cut (Basic route) Elec-Ice-Fire-Bomb-Guts-Cut (With DelayStageClear in Bomb) Third and final possibility is that we only use New PPU on basic route system.
Posted: 1/16/2010 2:05 PM
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Bablo
Player (224)
Joined: 10/17/2005
Posts: 399
Shinryuu wrote:
Elec-Ice-Bomb-Guts-Cut-Fire (With DelayStageClear in Bomb)
Fix'd.
<adelikat> I've been quoted with worse
Posted: 1/16/2010 9:11 PM
Quote
adelikat
He/Him
Emulator Coder, Site Developer, Site Owner, Expert player (3570)
Joined: 11/3/2004
Posts: 4754
Location: Tennessee
TASer of 2010 NES TASer of 2010 DS TASer of 2010 Arcade TAS of 2010 NES TASer of 2008 NES TAS of 2008 Funny TAS of 2008 TASer of 2007 NES TASer of 2007 Funny TAS of 2007
finalfighter wrote:
3:Nintendulator(NTSC,FrameSkip 0) The object doesn't appear. Graphic becomes strange. I have been perplexed to another result of Nintendulator. :( Which selection should we do?
Gah, that makes the situation even more confusing. Nintendulator is the most like the real NES of all of them currently. So I lean towards that being the true result.
It's hard to look this good. My TAS projects
Posted: 1/17/2010 1:36 AM
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finalfighter
Active player (276)
Joined: 4/20/2004
Posts: 219
Location: Japan,Tokyo
NES TAS of 2020 Glitchy TAS of 2020 TAS of 2010 NES TAS of 2010 Glitchy TAS of 2010 NES TAS of 2009
I tested the difference. Though I am not well informed about the change of the ppu I/O. :P ------------------------------------------------- OldPPU $2010 and $2011 are read next to $200F. Though it seems to change whenever memory is read. But,It is the same as the value of $200F. 
D943:B1 06     LDA ($06),Y @ $200F = #$07
D947:C8        INY
D948:B1 06     LDA ($06),Y @ $2010 = #$07
D94C:C8        INY
D94D:B1 06     LDA ($06),Y @ $2011 = #$07
D94F:C8        INY

Memory of HexEditor
D943:
     00 01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 0A 0B 0C 0D 0E 0F
2000 91 1E 07 00 F8 07 62 07 91 1E 07 00 F8 07 62 07
2010 91 1E 07 00 F8 07 62 07 91 1E 07 00 F8 07 62 07
2020 91 1E 07 00 F8 07 62 07 91 1E 07 00 F8 07 62 07

D948,D94D:
other value
------------------------------------------------- NewPPU #$10 is read with $D948 and $D94D. It is different from the value of the memory. 
D943:B1 06     LDA ($06),Y @ $200F = #$06
D947:C8        INY
D948:B1 06     LDA ($06),Y @ $2010 = #$10
D94C:C8        INY
D94D:B1 06     LDA ($06),Y @ $2011 = #$10
D94F:C8        INY

Memory of HexEditor
D943:
     00 01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 0A 0B 0C 0D 0E 0F
2000 90 1E 10 00 F8 02 6A 06 90 1E 10 00 F8 02 6A 06
2010 90 1E 10 00 F8 02 6A 06 90 1E 10 00 F8 02 6A 06
2020 90 1E 10 00 F8 02 6A 06 90 1E 10 00 F8 02 6A 06

D948:
     00 01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 0A 0B 0C 0D 0E 0F
2000 90 1E 10 00 F8 02 4A 04 90 1E 10 00 F8 02 4A 04
2010 90 1E 10 00 F8 02 4A 04 90 1E 10 00 F8 02 4A 04
2020 90 1E 10 00 F8 02 4A 04 90 1E 10 00 F8 02 4A 04

D94D:
     00 01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 0A 0B 0C 0D 0E 0F
2000 90 1E 10 00 F8 02 42 04 90 1E 10 00 F8 02 42 04
2010 90 1E 10 00 F8 02 42 04 90 1E 10 00 F8 02 42 04
2020 90 1E 10 00 F8 02 42 04 90 1E 10 00 F8 02 42 04
------------------------------------------------- Nintendulator CPUMem of $2000-$7FF0 is always FF 
D943:B1 06     LDA ($06),Y @ $200F = #$FF
D947:C8        INY
D948:B1 06     LDA ($06),Y @ $2010 = #$FF
D94C:C8        INY
D94D:B1 06     LDA ($06),Y @ $2011 = #$FF
D94F:C8        INY

Memory of disasemmbly
Always:
     00 01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 0A 0B 0C 0D 0E 0F
2000 FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF
2010 FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF
2020 FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF
-------------------------------------------------
Posted: 1/17/2010 1:43 AM
Quote
Nach
Emulator Coder
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
finalfighter: If you have a test ROM image, perhaps we should run it on a real NES and be sure of the proper result.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Posted: 1/17/2010 3:23 AM
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finalfighter
Active player (276)
Joined: 4/20/2004
Posts: 219
Location: Japan,Tokyo
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I made HackROM with the same effect as delaytest.lua. It makes a mistake in the bank number when the select is pushed. The ips patch is here. http://www.yuko2ch.net/rockman/rockman_changebank.ips 
Default Rockman(J):
A9 06 8D 06 C0 85 12 A5 8F F0 03 20 02 DB
lda #$06
sta $C006
sta CurrentBank
lda ZigZagFireStatus
beq +
jsr UpdateZigZagFire

Patch HackROM:
A5 16 A0 06 29 10 F0 02 A0 05 8C 06 C0 EA
lda $16
ldy #$06
and #$04
beq +
ldy #$05
+
sty $C006
nop
Posted: 1/17/2010 5:53 AM
Quote
finalfighter
Active player (276)
Joined: 4/20/2004
Posts: 219
Location: Japan,Tokyo
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I was using the debugger of Nintendulator for test. But,the result of the debugger of Nintendulator was wrong(A part of area becomes FF). Without using the debugger,DelayStageClear succeeded at Nintendulator when HackRom was used. In a word, this. 1:FCEUX(NewPPU) A decided enemy appears. 2:FCEUX(OldPPU) and Nestopia and Nintendulator(not use debugger) Various objects appear. 3Emulators,Almost the same result. Perhaps, BombStageClear seems to become possible as for a real machine :P
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