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Posted: 3/24/2010 2:56 PM
(Edited: 3/31/2010 1:41 PM)
Post subject: URGENT: Admins & Judges: response needed
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adelikat
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There's been an important update. -Nach --------------------------------------- Guys, I was just informed of this thread: http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8874 Thoughts? This could be the most damning news in the history of TASVideos :/
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Posted: 3/24/2010 3:00 PM
Post subject: Important
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Nach
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Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
What he says is obvious, and is only part of it. Most older games don't initialize RAM before they use it. Further, the timing crystals in older consoles such as those found in the NES and SNES aren't very accurate, and depending on how the game is programmed, can cause events to vary by a couple of frames. I would say that most games in fact for older consoles are non deterministic. Our emulators work by being more precise in timing than the original consoles and are (almost) completely deterministic. TASing is really just an emulator sport, unless we're talking newer consoles, for games that are programmed well.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Posted: 3/24/2010 3:08 PM
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adelikat
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So I did some research on Super Mario Bros 2 USA. It turns out that the game doesn't initialize objects before using them. Later on it reuses old values, but the first time it is random. Not good :/
It's hard to look this good. My TAS projects
Posted: 3/24/2010 4:48 PM
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sgrunt
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Oh dear. I'd seen bits and pieces of this discussion previously but I didn't think things would end up looking this bleak. We do have a long-standing rule that our runs must be on games that are emulated well. Worst case, we stop accepting new runs until we can prove that our emulators have the capability of coming up with an initial memory state that matches something we see on the console (we'll need to come up with a method of testing this, of course). Being able to reproduce this on real hardware is a plus and may even be preferred. Is there an alternative to this that anyone else can think of?
Posted: 3/24/2010 5:03 PM
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Nach
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Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
I don't see any alternative. But even if we were to find an initial memory state that exists on the console, using the same initial state each time isn't true to the console. Even if we were to ignore that point, we don't have any variance in the timing as the game runs. And if we were to add that variance, we would no longer be able to say this set of input works, as it'll constantly desync. If we were to allow for somehow tying those timing variables to the movie file to allow for syncable playback, we no longer have a guarantee the input file was made purely out of key input. Basically, authors are going to be defining their own initial states, and tweak their own timing variances for the input, and craft movie files that may be a valid input sequence, but it may not be one that the original console would ever generate. We really have no way to verify it. Movie making will become a free for all.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Posted: 3/24/2010 5:25 PM
Post subject: The Natives are Restless
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Nach
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Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
<AnotherGamer> The hell is that thread about anyway <TASVideoAgent> Post edited by Nach (URGENT: Admins & Judges needed): http://tasvideos.org/forum/p/230164#230164 [a:1] <Dacicus> AG: an urgent need for more admins and judges? <AnotherGamer> How can you sign up to be one if it's a private topic <Dacicus> AG: Probably ask adelikat or Nach <AnotherGamer> Either of them <Dacicus> actually, the link doesn't work <AnotherGamer> So what's up with that thread doc <DrNach> It's a private thread <AnotherGamer> Because of what <DrNach> Is that your buisiness? <DrNach> you don't look like an admin or judge to me <AnotherGamer> Naturally it is <DrNach> If we wanted you to know what we were discussing, we'd make the thread public, really, use some common sense man <AnotherGamer> What could possibly be so secret that you won't make it public <DrNach> you act like this is the first time we had a private thread <AnotherGamer> Well it's the first one I've seen <AnotherGamer> Blame dacicus for drawing my attention to it * DrNach blames Dacicus <_4matsy> Silly AG. If he told you, it wouldn't be a SECRET anymore :p <AnotherGamer> Not enough <Dacicus> It's the first one I've seen, too. <Dacicus> You're blaming me for being curious? <AnotherGamer> But I want to know all sekrits there is to know <AnotherGamer> I won't know if they're worth knowing until I know what they are silly <DrNach> well, like all our private threads, when we reach a decision, we'll put it on our wiki <AnotherGamer> What wiki where <DrNach> you sound like this is the first time you've been to TASVideos <AnotherGamer> Well the site doesn't look particulary like a wiki to me <DrNach> AnotherGamer: maybe you should read this: http://tasvideos.org/SiteTechnology.html and become educated <AnotherGamer> I don't want any education <AnotherGamer> I just want movies I don't know why, but there seems to be more interest in this private thread than our other ones. Almost like they can sense the impending doom if we don't resolve this. In order to lift people's spirits, if anyone else continues to ask perhaps just tell them: We created a robot which is able to play all the simple NES games well, and is currently breaking every record for SMB, SMB3, MM3-6, and so on, and we're contemplating allowing it or not. Well whatever, that sounds stupid, but the ramifications of this thread are making me cranky.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Posted: 3/24/2010 5:29 PM
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sgrunt
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How about this as an alternative: getting rid of the aforementioned rule, perhaps turning it into a guideline or something of the sort. Ideally this would be implemented in such a fashion as to allow judges to reject a run which does something obviously not possible from the console's initial state. We could also perhaps mandate testing glitches on the console prior to them being implemented in the run?
Posted: 3/24/2010 5:31 PM
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mmbossman
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GBx TAS of 2008
So if we can't accurately say that we are emulating a game as closely as possible to the real hardware, how are we supposed to convince people that this site provides god-like play? I mean, sure some emulators are way behind others, but if emulation of platforms like the NES and SNES are not actually as stable as we once thought, it makes what we do look no better than just memory hackers, cheaters, etc.
Living Well Is The Best Revenge My Personal Page
Posted: 3/24/2010 5:31 PM
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Nach
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Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
sgrunt: You reading anything I write? This is more than just the initial state, this includes the entire run, the game in itself is variable, not just from initial start up state. Edit: mmbossman: Yeah, that's what I was trying to get at, thanks for putting it into words.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Posted: 3/24/2010 5:50 PM
(Edited: 3/24/2010 6:57 PM)
Post subject: So what do we do?
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mmbossman
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GBx TAS of 2008
So, with the knowledge that it's virtually impossible to accurately emulate real hardware, what do we do? Keep going with the current emulators and just tell people they're "good enough"? Have a disclaimer on all our videos stating "This may or may not be the fastest possible way to beat this game, we really can't say if it's actually possible or not"? Alter the site mission statement to be all about entertainment and have speed be totally eliminated, since we can't measure it anyway?
Living Well Is The Best Revenge My Personal Page
Posted: 3/24/2010 6:02 PM
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sgrunt
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I think we can allow for some reasonable variance in the console's timing - the input sequence in emulators is tied to frames which themselves have variable timing, after all. More work would need to be done on emulators to implement this, of course. What we should be aiming for is to set out that the results you see here are "close enough" to what is possible on the actual console. This should be (relatively) easy for many of the types of glitches that we see - just aim to reproduce them on the console using some means of feeding the controller 60Hz input (programmable controllers or something of that nature). Where this gets trickier is luck manipulation or any other form of pseudo-randomness which obviously depends on the initial state. I am not really certain how we can prove that reaching the given result in the given amount of time is something which is doable on a real console, even if we allow for manipulation of the initial state and any timing variances. In light of this, the "good enough" label might not be feasible. A "might not be actually possible" label doesn't really work either - it'll just turn more people to saying that we're "cheating". Having speed be eliminated from the mission statement also isn't acceptable, as it defeats the purpose of many of the runs of the site.
Posted: 3/24/2010 8:12 PM
Post subject: Cheating
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Nach
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Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
In light of all this perhaps we should reexamine our position. Perhaps we are in a sense cheating? But so is anyone who tries speed running in an emulator.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Posted: 3/24/2010 11:46 PM
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adelikat
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TASer of 2010 NES TASer of 2010 DS TASer of 2010 Arcade TAS of 2010 NES TASer of 2008 NES TAS of 2008 Funny TAS of 2008 TASer of 2007 NES TASer of 2007 Funny TAS of 2007
sgrunt wrote:
What we should be aiming for is to set out that the results you see here are "close enough" to what is possible on the actual console. In light of this, the "good enough" label might not be feasible. A "might not be actually possible" label doesn't really work either - it'll just turn more people to saying that we're "cheating". Having speed be eliminated from the mission statement also isn't acceptable, as it defeats the purpose of many of the runs of the site.
Exactly. The who concept of TASing and TASVideos is founded on the principle of being possible on a real console, not "close enough". Without that foundation we have nothing! I don't see how I can, in good conscious, keep deceiving the public with these false notions. What's the point? I feel like it is all unraveling now. I remember playing blades of steel as a child and watching the demo. I thought it was just built into it different demos. Little did I know I was watching a proof of concept that would destroy the hobby I had cherished for so many years! :-(
It's hard to look this good. My TAS projects
Posted: 3/24/2010 11:50 PM
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Nach
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Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
Yeah, way to go Mr. Exaggeration. You had too much coffee today. We can still make TASs. We can't just say anymore that it's possible to do these on consoles, and we will have to admit that in some way, we are in fact cheating.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Posted: 3/24/2010 11:51 PM
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sgrunt
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Location: The dark horror in the back of your mind
Huh. I thought we'd spent years building up the image that TASing was not cheating (WhyAndHow, anyone?). I guess it all comes crashing down if we have to admit to this...
Posted: 3/25/2010 9:33 AM
Post subject: Confirmation and thoughts
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Bisqwit
Editor, Active player (297)
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 7469
Location: Arzareth
I realize I don't really have a place in this discussion considering my changed position which is self-imposed, but let me just say these words anyway. It was indeed part of my original fascination on this TAS concept that the performance shown in the movie can, just so theoretically, be performed on the real console as well, given perfect knowledge and perfect skill. I never intended for the site to showcase emulator artifacts. I mean, savestates and slowdown do not make for "emulator artifacts" because they only alter the perception of the time, not the game itself, but the emulation itself should be consistent with what the actual console performs. Admittedly, the first emulator we used, Famtasia, did not really do well on any aspect as far as authenticity goes, but by now, we are pretty close there. But is the whole concept flawed, based on incorrect assumptions? That is a big "bummer" if so. It pains me greatly to see, as it indeed turns out, that the very things I fought to teach to people, regarding TASes, were incorrect to begin with. I have no sufficient words with which to apologize to everyone, whose life I am responsible of indirectly stealing months, even years, of. On the other hand, I am glad I was able to produce a coherent sentence that ends with the word "of" directly preceded by a comma.
Posted: 3/25/2010 1:58 PM
Post subject: Speed?
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Nach
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So in light of all this, what are we to be doing with the future of the site? Obviously we'll have to change some of our information to identify with a new purpose of TAS Videos if we are to have one. But what do we aim for, speed? As mentioned before, speed is really objective based on various factors which we can't even prove are valid. If we are to say that going with speed is still a pillar of TASVideos, knowing that the whole idea is emulator only, then we must allow exploitation of emulator bugs. Yet I don't really think that's an ideal. Emulator bugs is just stupid, speed would be so subjective with every emulator that comes out. I want to have the fastest SMB finish time ever, so I'll go take an existing emulator, make a couple of changes so that it magically removes SMB frame rules, and makes Mario move faster, and then beat the game in 2 minutes. Doing this would be even more cheating, yet would mesh with the idea of going for speed based on an emulator. Does anyone see how we can still go for speed?
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Posted: 3/25/2010 2:04 PM
Post subject: Speed schmeed
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adelikat
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I agree, speed is silly. I claim to hold a lot of speed records for several games but what's the point? "Hey, Double Dragon 2 can be beaten in 8:40 by cheating". What record does this hold? Nothing. I also could easily cheat to make this 1 second if I chose. Remember the debates about TAS movies recorded with cheat codes? It was quickly decide such a thing is pointless.
It's hard to look this good. My TAS projects
Posted: 3/25/2010 2:13 PM
Post subject: Entertainment?
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Nach
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So then what is our aim then, entertainment? We've had so many movies where there was entertaining boss fights, that were replaced with a movie which kills the boss almost immediately, sacrificing all that entertainment. The rational used to be, well speed is the priority, and speed in itself is entertaining. Both those ideas are now proven false. What are we to do, have older obsoleted movies now be revived and obsolete the newer ones? Unreject movies which were rejected because parts of the game were sloppy speedwise, but were rather entertaining overall? Entertaining is also highly subjective. Is SRAM exploitation of Super Metroid entertaining? At the very least, seems like we'll have to rewrite many of our rules and guidelines.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Posted: 3/25/2010 2:20 PM
Post subject: The Community
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Nach
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I just wanted to add a few thoughts on this. I've frequently had private discussion with people that just joined the site, were considering leaving, or left, and with people that were angry over various staff decisions. A large percentage of people seemed to convey they joined this site because of the speed, and more importantly the precision in these movies. And some of them left because they felt we were too lenient in accepting flawed improvements, or rejecting movies for only single frame improvements. I feel if we quash speed as a pillar, we may lose a large percentage of the community. But if they were to read this thread, they may also just leave on their own. We need to think about how we can salvage our community once all this is realized, and perhaps consider if it is even worth salvaging.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Posted: 3/25/2010 2:25 PM
Post subject: Re: Community
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adelikat
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It makes sense to remove our speed based movies. However, even if we replace as many of them as possible with some of their more entertainment based predecessors, that is still an 95% cut of the site's content! TASVideos - Tool-assisted Superplays "come watch our 30 playaround movies, they are cool!" Not much of a site is left...but I don't know that we have much choice. Perhaps if we handle the situation well, we can salvage the site, and retain a community.
It's hard to look this good. My TAS projects
Posted: 3/25/2010 8:21 PM
Post subject: Apologies to Saturn
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mmbossman
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GBx TAS of 2008
adelikat wrote:
It makes sense to remove our speed based movies. However, even if we replace as many of them as possible with some of their more entertainment based predecessors, that is still an 95% cut of the site's content!
If this indeed becomes the route we have to take, I guess I'll have to eat my words and accept Saturn's 14% run, as it was clearly thought of as entertaining, and we don't have speed/frame precision/fastest possible category etc. to worry about when accepting something anymore. I guess I should also formally apologize to Saturn for keeping his movie off the site, even though I still think my decision at the time was correct. If this change is necessary, I think his run would make a good addition to the 'new' TASvideos, as ironic as that sounds.
Living Well Is The Best Revenge My Personal Page
Posted: 3/25/2010 8:25 PM
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sgrunt
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Here is the thing: how many people will we have left if speed becomes a non-issue? By the sound of Nach's comment, we're looking at a very small percentage of people sticking around should that be the case. Also, if it becomes known that this is in fact considered cheating, who will want to watch the remaining runs? Breaking the game loses a lot of its charm if it involves rampant cheating to do so; I for one enjoy seeing games broken using only the means available within the game itself. I suspect we will see a lot of people leaving for similar reasons should we take down the speed-oriented runs. Will we have anyone left?
Posted: 3/25/2010 11:19 PM
Post subject: Isn't it a good thing?
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Bisqwit
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Hasn't the site already outlived its purpose though? The original purpose was to provide high-quality video game entertainment in the Internet where it was standard (in 2003--2004) to provide much worse quality. Nowadays, others are providing good quality too. Look at SDA for example. And Youtube with its HD streaming. In my view, the concept of TAS was only a temporary goal of this site. The reason it was narrowed down to TASes was because there were other sites that did other types of video game movies. Even now, there are slowplays, speeddemosarchive, and many others. Also, the purpose of the site was to educate people on how the concept is applied to create entertainment. Haven't we educated people enough? Just about every speedrunner and their sister knows by now what a TAS is. Obviously I cannot cast any vote you might draw, and also I have kind of promised to never do anything that directly hurts this site (it just isn't in my nature), but just in a very slight way I may suggest that some rethinking might be called for.
Posted: 3/25/2010 11:33 PM
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Nach
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You bring up good points. If we were to shift to entertainment only, which may be our only option, how are we any different than YouTube? Sure we have organized forums, but then we're just an over-glorified discussion website. Once our members realize this, they'll probably slowly drift away. Edit: Basically, with these realizations, we really don't have much of an idea to rally around anymore.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
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