Player (206)
Joined: 5/29/2004
Posts: 5712
Viper's probably not going to do it this time around, since there would be so much stuff to fix up after.
put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
Former player
Joined: 10/17/2004
Posts: 226
Location: Bonn, Germany
time for another update You were right Truncated, I tried it again and managed to grab the key without having to land on the block. That saved 5 frames :) In the Forest Ghost House I first abused invincibility twice (flying into ghosts), and then used an awesome shortcut that was recently discovered by someone called "Bladegash" on the SDA forum (is that the same Bladegash who also posts here sometimes?). Anyway, I didn't know about this before, and it really saves a huge amount of time :) In Forest of Illusions 1a I tried to hit as many enemies as possible, eventually collecting some 1UPs. I could have gotten 2UP and 3UP from hitting the wrigglers before the goal, but then I wouldn't have been able to fly over the last wall, and that would have cost 15 frames :( Forest of Illusions 2 was quite tricky. There were 3 spots where Mario *almost* gets hit by a spikefish, this was really framework... But I now managed to get through without getting hit, it looks pretty cool :) If you wonder why I don't take the secret exit first: That would mean that I'd play the same level twice within 2 minutes, and I try to avoid that if possible. I'll do the FoI2 secret exit and the Blue Switch Palace between FoI4a and FoI3b, that doesn't cost any worldmap movements, and I also don't need the blue !-blocks inbetween. Anyway, here is the movie of the first 4 forest levels. And this is a funny short movie worth checking out as well :) (only 3 seconds input, but it will continue after the movie stops) @Michael Fried: Bag of Magic Food is right, this would mean changing a huge part of the movie, and would surely cause loads of desynchs. I tried to do something similar when I wanted to switch the Donut Plains routes (DP1b and DS1 first, and then the other levels after finishing Special World), but I gave up very fast, there are just too many variables and random factors influenced. So this is not really worth it, in Yoshi's Island 1 the difference would be 90 frames, and probably another ~ 20-30 frames in the Yellow Switch Palace ==> ~ 2 seconds overall... *IF* I (or somebody else) will ever do a new version of this movie, this new route should of course be taken into consideration.
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Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 484
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Yeah, that Bladegash is the same as I, and I actually discovered that shortcut about 12 years ago. =P
Editor, Reviewer, Experienced player (978)
Joined: 4/17/2004
Posts: 3109
Location: Sweden
Yay for 5 frames! :) As I was playing around with frameskip and slowdown during the movie was playing, it desynched. This was in FoI1 second time when you bump someone breaking out of a block and spinjump the next guy, you started flying left instead of right afterwards. This is the first desynch I've had. What are the factors for holding on to a block to swim faster? You seem to be able to still swim fast upwards, but not downwards, for example. At 8860 somewhere, you throw a block (at the sleeping fish) even though you have a long straight way ahead of you - is it because it's about to melt in your hands? The ghostbumping was kinda fun, too bad you don't get points for that. EDIT: I noticed another thing: at 8961 you walk on the ground for 2 frames. Doesn't this slow you down? I remember swimming being faster than walking.
Former player
Joined: 10/17/2004
Posts: 226
Location: Bonn, Germany
I've had desynchs occur a few times already, usually it helps to just restart Snes9x Both swimming upwards and downwards with items in the hand is very slow. Swimming upwards I used the trick to throw up the item, swim up, and grab it back just to throw it up another time. Unfortunately you can't throw items downwards, so that takes more time. At the place with those 2 spikefish (~ 8860) I had to throw the block away to float down faster, otherwise the fish would have moved up and I wouldn't have fitted through that hole anymore and have to wait much longer. And the block would have vanished ~ 100 frames later anyway. However at the next point where I destroyed the block, it was faster to float down slowlier but then swimming forward at a higher speed. So, I now improved my old movie by 125 frames / 3 timeunits :) The walking on the ground at 8961 was sloppyness, I think that was the only passage in the level that I didn't play with frame advance :S. Luckily it didn't slow me down because it was only 2 frames (I tested it), and as it's hardly noticable when watching the movie at full speed, I didn't fix it Forest of Illusions 3 was really boring. Mario must not touch the bubbles, or he will immediately stop flying. I also couldn't fly close to the ground (between the bubbles), because every now and then there's a huge tube that I need to fly over... So now I'm just flying on top of the screen, trying to make it look as exciting as possible... Forest Ghost House a is pretty similar to the secret exit, I only changed the spinjump flights at the beginning a bit (bumped on one ghost now). I fly over the wall in the exact same time; the door couldn't be entered earlier. Forest of Illusions 4 was quite nice, I bumped some Lakitus, and entered the last pipe very fast. Unfortunately I couldn't grab the 1UP from the fishing-gear, as the Lakitu kept holding it behind Mario all the time :( The new video can be downloaded here And this is another small funny video that I recorded kinda accidentally (collecting 8 1UPs within 2 seconds :D), check it out :)
Joined: 12/17/2004
Posts: 99
Location: Karlsruhe, Germany
Well you can't say any other thin than: I want more, mooooooooooooooooooooore. :-) cu Fabian
Editor, Reviewer, Experienced player (978)
Joined: 4/17/2004
Posts: 3109
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Looking good. About the multi-1up: It's possible to get one more extra life by spinjumping the bomb afterwards. I wonder how this game keep tracks of increasing bonuses...
Player (36)
Joined: 9/11/2004
Posts: 2630
It's desyncing for me the second time through the ghost house.
Build a man a fire, warm him for a day, Set a man on fire, warm him for the rest of his life.
Former player
Joined: 10/17/2004
Posts: 226
Location: Bonn, Germany
Sorry for not updating for a few days, I was without computer for the weekend :P Forest Secret Area: I tried to spend as little time as possible getting running speed on the starting platform, I think I optimized it. It wasn't possible to get all dragon coins, and the level is also too short to hit enough enemies to get 1UPs. I could have collected the 3 1UPs behind the goal, by flying high enough above the screen; but that would have meant that I actually break the goal line a lot later. Forest Fortress: In the autoscrolling room I had some fun stomping the chainsaws, only touching the ground once (this was unavoidable :(). In the second room I couldn't get over the pit with the 2 chainsaws without slowing down. I could have taken off to another spinjump flight on the top platform, but in the end that would have cost even more time, so I think now this is the fastest possible. Afterwards I tried to fly as close to the flames as possible, without touching them. The Reznors were killed in the exact same time as in Vanilla Fortress Forest of Illusions 4b: I bumped enough Lakitus and koopas to collect one 1UP at the end :). I could have hit the very first green koopa as well, but that would have meant lifting off later = less time in air = slower. Hitting the last blue koopa was really hard, I had to hit the cloud Lakitu in the very right angle... You can download the movie from FoI1 till FoI4b here I also made another small fun video of Mario the chainsawkiller; you can download it here @OmnipotentEntity: Are you sure you are using Snes9x 1.43 WIP or the new patch by nitsuja? Because then it should not desynch; maybe restarting Snes9x would also help?
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Joined: 4/17/2004
Posts: 3109
Location: Sweden
With nitsuja's Zeldafix version 3, I get the exact same problem as Omni above, desynch at second time in ghost house. 1.43 WIP works all the way, as long as Volume height option is OFF (otherwise desynch at Forest 4b). I have no idea what business it had being on. So, the video: you already know about the small stop, and you already said the only idea i had wouldn't work. How about just before the big door, you slide on the ground for a while which is slower. How about spinjumping out of the flying pose and run the last part instead? Also, I think you should include these small and fun little clips of you doing weird stuff to the mario engine in the submission text as links.
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Joined: 3/13/2004
Posts: 1118
Location: Kansai, JAPAN
I have no desync problems, not that it helps anyone with theirs but just to reassure VIPer7 that there is nothing wrong with his (?) recording.
Do Not Talk About Feitclub http://www.feitclub.com
Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1310)
Joined: 12/21/2004
Posts: 2687
Zeldafix version 3 would almost certainly desync because it's based on 1.43 Final and AFAIK this movie was recorded with the WIP. The newer patch is based on 1.43 WIP so it should be able to play this movie fine. But, all this only applies to the full from-reset movie, because the save state format has been changed for the zelda fix, so save-state-based movie clips aren't compatible between versions even though from-reset movies are. In fact, I have a question for Truncated and maybe Omni: how were you able to get Zeldafix version 3 to even play the movie file? Mine gets a "wrong format" error message because the save state in the movie doesn't match up with the new format. Which movie file are you talking about? VIPer7: I don't recall your run having volume height envelope off, but now it must be off? Whichever it is, make sure all the segments are recorded with the same sound settings or you'll have a heck of a time hex-editing it together.
Joined: 4/23/2004
Posts: 150
One thing about the second room in Forest Fortress. It's possible (I don't remember offhand how it's done) to fly so that you you dive/fall directly onto the pink triangle that sends you running up the wall. By doing this, you will maintain running speed, IIRC. Something you could compare against what's currently done. Andreas
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Posts: 3109
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>In fact, I have a question for Truncated and maybe Omni: how were you able to get Zeldafix version 3 to even play the movie file? Mine gets a "wrong format" error message because the save state in the movie doesn't match up with the new format. Which movie file are you talking about? Hum, that's weird. I just open (what I think is) snes9x zeldafix ver3, open rom file, movie play forest4b.smv with read-only. Works just like usual, except for the desync.
Player (36)
Joined: 9/11/2004
Posts: 2630
Ditto w/Truncated. And I wasn't even using readonly. ^_^ And yes, that makes sense. I feel stupider for even having asked that.
Build a man a fire, warm him for a day, Set a man on fire, warm him for the rest of his life.
Former player
Joined: 10/17/2004
Posts: 226
Location: Bonn, Germany
@Truncated + OmnipotentEntity: You must be using a different version of Snes9x which is not compatible with my movies. I have watched my movies several times with both Snes9x 1.43 WIP (that's the snes9x.exe that I have been using for the last half year) and also with nitsuja's latest improvement, namely this file, and I haven't noticed any desynchs at all (and I also know of nobody else other than you who had problems). Did you try watching the movie more than just once? I had desynchs very few times in SMW, but they were always gone after restarting Snes9x and trying again. Today I spent quite some time redoing Forest Fortress... I first tried what Andreas had suggested, but that was also slower, because Mario has to run up the wall and that costs time. But then I found another way which was faster, namely doing a normal flight and stopping it as soon as I get into the small hole. Unfortunately now I could not start flying without hitting one of the two flames, so I had to put in a small delay, pressing backward for a few frames. But nevertheless this was still 11 frames faster than the old version. Also thanks to Truncated for suggesting to spinjump before the boss door, that saved another 5 frames. So far so good, I now entered the reznor room 16 frames faster. But now unfortunately the 2nd Reznor spits a fireball, and this makes it impossible to hit him without getting hit. So I had 2 possibilities: Either enter the door with delay, and hope that this triggers a different fireball-spitting-behaviour, or find a new "route" how to hit the Reznors. I first tried the delay-method, but only after entering the door 14 frames later than I could, it was possible to hit the 2nd Reznor - not really acceptable. So now I just did a different route to hit the Reznors. It is slower than the old route (12 frames), but nevertheless overall it's still 4 frames faster than the old version, and also has more variation (the old Reznor fight was more or less the same as the one in Vanilla Fortress). I had to put in another 2 frames delay before entering Forest of Illlusions 4b to prevent it from desynching, but I was too lazy to play that level again (the Reznors had been quite frustrating...) In Forest of Illusions 2b I just copy+pasted the first half of FoI2a. I had spent so much time optimizing that, and there wasn't much space for variation, it would have look more or less the same anyway... At one point I stop for a moment, that's because I wait for the spikefish to go away. It was not possible to smash him with a block, because the block floats down so slowly and crashes when it hits a wall. Swimming around would have been slower as well. The Blue Switch Palace was quite easy, I just got rid of the P-blocks and lifted off as soon as possible, collecting as many points as I could but still entering the pipe as fast as possible. Turning backwards after jumping on the blue switch did not cost any time. In Forest of Illusions 4b I picked up a shell during the flight, which allowed me to keep on flying with the normal physics, even though Mario had a shell in his hands. I could only grab the shell and fly over the next pipe by performing a kamikaze flight, which cost me 1 frame, but I think this 1 frame was worth the extra entertainment (otherwise this level would have been really boring, as I must not touch any of the bubbles, as said earlier before already) You can download the latest video here (and hopefully watch it as well!) If there are no complaints within the next ~ 12 hours, I'll hex the FoI levels into the full movie and then start a new movie in castle#5
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Joined: 4/17/2004
Posts: 3109
Location: Sweden
It works like usual with 1.43 WIP as long as Sound Envelope thingie is turned off. Before that I had desync in the same place all the time. (Nevermind if it works or not on other versions.) Are you recording with this option on or off? I liked the new progress very much. I love how you fly with the shell - it looks like Mario is flying by flapping his cape. I hope you can get one of the "grab two objects at once" in there too.
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Joined: 12/21/2004
Posts: 2687
I got it to work btw, I think it didn't open because my download was corrupted or something, redownloaded it and it was fine. I'm getting a little tired with all the desync and version confusion, so the next version I put up will be compatible with both WIP and Final, able to play and record both versions of movies depending on if you check a "Use WIP1 timing" checkbox, and with all the possibly-desync-causing options layed out directly in the play and record movie dialogs.
Former player
Joined: 10/17/2004
Posts: 226
Location: Bonn, Germany
Sorry for not posting yesterday, therefore you get a big update now :) First of all I hexed the Forest of Illusions levels into the full movie, you can download it here (almost 1 hour long now) The next level was Castle #5, the fastest of all castles (unless you count Bowser's backdoor). When flying over the flames I had to do one kamikaze dive, otherwise I would either have hit a flame or not got over the wall. When fighting against Roy I discovered that it's possible to jump through him, it looks like Mario just walks through him (little demonstration video can be downloaded here) The next level was Chocolate Island 1, here I just flew over everything and hit some rhinos, eventually collecting two 1UPs In the Choco-Ghost House I had two alternatives: Either fly above the screen, or fly below the screen (flying in the middle will mean that I will hit a ghost or the ghost Lakitu's flame sooner or later). I now chose the lower route, as it was more exciting and also a few frames faster. In the second room I almost thought it was impossible to pass that row of ghosts without getting hit; both normal flight and spinjump flight didn't work. But then I tried a duck flight, and that did work, Mario just barely fits through the little hole :) You can download the video of these 3 levels here Now I had to test out several routes. The overworld time for the movements from castle#6 back to choco2 or from the underworld pipe to choco2 is exactly the same, in other words, it doesn't matter whether I first do the overworld and then the underworld route or the other way round. What does matter is that I need to have a Yoshi when I arrive at castle#6, because I really need him in Valley of Bowser 2, and there's no Yoshi egg in the Ghost Ship or VoB1. So, I now had 3 alternatives: Route A: - Chocolate Island 2 b - Chocolate Secret - Chocolate Island 2 a - Chocolate Island 3 a & b - Chocolate Fortress - Chocolate Island 4 - Chocolate Island 5 (get Yoshi here) Route B: - Chocolate Island 2 b - Chocolate Secret - Chocolate Island 2 a (get Yoshi here) - Chocolate Island 3 a & b - Chocolate Fortress - Chocolate Island 4 - Chocolate Island 5 Route C: - Chocolate Island 2 a - Chocolate Island 3 a & b - Chocolate Fortress - Chocolate Island 4 - Chocolate Island 5 - Chocolate Island 2 b (get Yoshi here) - Chocolate Secret Route A has the advantage that I get Yoshi as late as possible, and therefore can use fast flying in all other levels Route B has the advantage that I get Yoshi in a level where I have to waste 50 timeunits anyway, so I don't lose any time to jump on Yoshi (except for the 63 frames that it takes for the egg->Yoshi transformation, but these are in all 3 routes) Route C is similar to A, I also get Yoshi quite late. So, first I tested how much longer it takes to get Yoshi in Chocolate Island 5. The result was that I entered the yellow pipe ~ 160 frames (including the 63 frames for transformation) later than if I entered the level with Yoshi. As all other levels in Route A are done without Yoshi (=> as fast as possible), the other routes would be slower as soon as it cost more than 160 frames to get Yoshi And that was the case. Getting Yoshi in Chocolate Island 2 b already cost 225 frames (also because this slowed down in the other parts of the level). I didn't even test Chocolate Secret, because it was quite obvious already that Route C was slower than A Then I tested Route B. In Chocolate Island 2 a I was already 211 frames slower, even though the first 2 parts had to be finished in the same timeunits. And after Chocolate Island 3 a & b the difference was already more than 400 frames. So, the winner is route A You can download my testvideo up to Chocolate Island 3 b here, but keep in mind, this is not the definite version yet. The third room in Chocolate Secret might still be done a bit faster, and you can be sure that I'll try to make the waiting for 50 timeunits in Choclate Island 2b as entertaining as possible ;). Same goes for Chocolate Island 3, although maybe for the first exit I'll have to fly above the screen to reach the goal without slowdown. I'm away for a few days now and will continue with the movie next Sunday or Monday!
Joined: 9/29/2004
Posts: 39
50 timeunits? I thought that if you exited the first section as quickly as possible, and in the second section with all the inclines and troopas flying around, as long as you finished in more than 30 timeunits from start, you would proceed on a track that would lead to the regular exit. Actually I'm pretty sure that's the case, because I remember playing on SNES and having to Start+Select because I got through the first two sections in longer than 30 timeunits and so couldn't get to the keyhole. Unless the route you take is still faster, even after wasting those 20 seconds.
Former player
Joined: 10/17/2004
Posts: 226
Location: Bonn, Germany
Well, then you either got a different version of the game, or a bad memory ;) This is how the level exits in Chocolate Island 2 work: 1st area: - 0-8 coins collected: exit leads to an area with flying red koopas - 9-20 coins collected: exit leads to an area with many "Rex" dinosaurs (the pink ones) - 21 or more coins collected: exit leads to an area with a feather, where you have to fly over a longer distance 2nd area (no matter which exit you took before): - 250-300 timeunits left: exit leads to the key area (with some football chucks) - 235-249 timeunits left: exit leads to an area with some green dinosaurs - 0-234 timeunits left: exit leads to an area with mushrooms in bubbles 3rd area (again not dependand on which exit you took before): - 4 dragon coins collected (you can only do this if you entered the Rex or feather area first): exit leads to a goal area with many coloured !-blocks, and the last dragon coin - 0-3 dragon coins collected: exit leads to a goal area with some Rex guys (both exit areas are exactly same long) (thanks to DeHacked who told me about the 21+ coins in the first area - you can only get them if you spin-jump against the multiple-coin block) oh and btw 1 timeunit doesn't equal 1 second; 1 timeunit lasts exactly 41 frames, so that's about 2/3 of a second.
Joined: 9/29/2004
Posts: 39
Alright, so I probably didn't have a different version of the game, and I KNOW for certain that I used to press start+select when I took more than 30 timeunits at least the last few times I've played through, so the only thing I can conclude is that I was doing that needlessly when I really had 20 more timeunits to spare! Anyway, with Choco Island 3, I notice for the regular exit, you stop flying and start running at the platform towards the end so you can fly upward to the goal. This running slows you down, right? Because flying the entire way would have been faster? If so, why not switch the way you do the levels? I.e., for the regular exit (first time), fly high above the pipes through the entire level and dive to get the goal post. For the hidden exit (second time), then fly low underneath everything, and don't bother running on the platform because you don't need to. Wouldn't that save you a bit of time? By the way, much thanks for posting that guide to how the exits work for Choco 2 - I had always been curious about it, and as I was looking it up on gamefaqs earlier today I couldn't find anyone who could define exactly where you go on which conditions.
Former player
Joined: 10/17/2004
Posts: 226
Location: Bonn, Germany
Avin wrote:
Anyway, with Choco Island 3, I notice for the regular exit, you stop flying and start running at the platform towards the end so you can fly upward to the goal. This running slows you down, right? Because flying the entire way would have been faster? If so, why not switch the way you do the levels? I.e., for the regular exit (first time), fly high above the pipes through the entire level and dive to get the goal post. For the hidden exit (second time), then fly low underneath everything, and don't bother running on the platform because you don't need to. Wouldn't that save you a bit of time?
I guess you didn't read the last paragraph of my posting from 17.02.2005 02:44:11. It was only a test version, to find out whether getting Yoshi in CI2a was worth it or not. When I got to the end of CI3 and found out that I couldn't reach the goal without landing, I didn't bother with redoing the whole level, because I was already sure that it was much faster than flying with Yoshi anyway. Anyway, I made a good version now In the third area of Chocolate Secret it was actually faster to just jump forward and lift off instead of running back and forth and start flying earlier. This saved 67 frames, 1 timeunit. Then in Chocolate Island 2a I did a new version of the first two areas, going into the area with the Rex dinosaurs and collecting some 1UPs there. I then wanted to hex the 3rd area of my old video into this, but it desynched. I tried redoing it, but because the green dinosaurs were in different positions, it was impossible to gain running speed and lift off early enough to collect the dragon coin, which was kinda annoying. So I spent lots of time trying to manipulate the enemy positions, and in the end I had to enter the level 1 frame later and then enter the first pipe at timeunit 284. But that was worth it, I collected 18 1UPs from hitting the Rexes and one more from getting the dragon coins. In Chocolate Island 3a I managed to reach the goal without having to land, and also without having to fly over the pipes. This means that I crossed the goal when it was above the visible screen, and this produced a funny glitch: The colour palette totally messed up, you can see that when I'm back on the world map. It's back to normal as soon as I enter the next level, so I kept this in the video (as it's also the fastest way to complete the level) In Chocolate Island 3b I could bump enough koopas to collect a 1UP in the end; I couldn't find any route to hit more koopas. In Chocolate Fortress I had to wait a bit at the start, so I could get through the barrier without slowing down. The Reznors were really nice, they didn't fire a single shot, so I could kill them 1 frame faster than in Vanilla Fortress (which had been the fastest Reznor fight so far). The new movie can be downloaded here.
Former player
Joined: 8/3/2004
Posts: 100
Location: Michigan, United States
Excellent as always!
Joined: 5/3/2004
Posts: 1203
Your video offers definitive proof that Sonic kicked Mario's ass; some of the frictionless material from Sonic's shoes seems to have rubbed off on Mario's butt.