Taking the top route at the end is two frames slower then the present route; entering the wall at the beginning is not possible because there are more walls in the rom to prevent just that, it seems.
Having the key input video would definitely be better than that YouTube video (as it would be possible to look frame-by-frame at what he does), but it seems to me that he spindashes at the beginning, jumps right before the rock, activate glide to drop to it, spindash again and glide to the end. That or he spindashes, jumps over the rock and activates glide mid-jump. I don't think he goes through the rock at all.
Taking the top route at the end is two frames slower then the present route; entering the wall at the beginning is not possible because there are more walls in the rom to prevent just that, it seems.
Yeah, that was actually the whole reason I did that. You see, while getting in the wall as Sonic or even Knuckles is somewhat difficult for the casual user, as Tails it's ridiculously easy to just fly in there. So I added the wall to prevent that.
You see, while getting in the wall as Sonic or even Knuckles is somewhat difficult for the casual user, as Tails it's ridiculously easy to just fly in there. So I added the wall to prevent that.
I figured as much. For what is worth, there are a couple of walls in GHZ3 (bottom route) that Tails can fly into too; but none of them are as easy or obvious (or useful) to get into as this one in GHZ2.
On another note, I managed to reduce Scrap Brain 2 time by another 2 frames. The WIP is here.
Joined: 4/18/2006
Posts: 179
Location: East Petersburg, PA
I was wondering something. What is the requirement of a hill or angle to be able to jump off of it to gain forward momentum? Like, does it have to be at a certain angle, or anything? There are a few levels where there is a hill, and I didn't know if there was a reason you don't jump forward off of it. Like in Marble Zone 3, at the end of it before the boss. Or in Spring Yard 2, at then end of it.
Edit: Also, as of not the latest WIP, but the one before it, mine desyncs at, I believe, Labyrinth Zone 3. It still does this in the latest also.
"I think we can put our differences behind us... for science, you monster."
What is the requirement of a hill or angle to be able to jump off of it to gain forward momentum?
Ground speed, slope gradient and how (and if) the slope gradient is changing. The optimal jumps to make in slopes are the ones that not only actually increase your speed, but that leave you with (a) a positive vertical speed (going down) or (b) the ones that leave you with a really high negative vertical speed (going up) and end by hitting the ceiling before speed reaches the drag range (upward speed in the 0 to -1000 range). With Tails in particular, any slope jump that allows you to start flight at or above the screen's top edge before drag kicks in is also optimal, in that your vertical speed will be set to zero when you start flight in these cases and prevent further loss to drag (SLZ2 is the perfect example).
Jumping also makes a slight (1-frame) pause during which position is not changed. This must be considered when determining if a slope jump is worth it.
DemonStrate wrote:
There are a few levels where there is a hill, and I didn't know if there was a reason you don't jump forward off of it.
The most likely reason is that I would lose most of the speed gained (and then some) because of drag. The second most likely reason is that the speed gain is not enough to reduce the time further (because of the 1-frame cost or because the distance is too short or both), and the jump would not have any entertainment value.
Of note:
DemonStrate wrote:
Like in Marble Zone 3, at the end of it before the boss.
Jumping from that slope loses most of the benefits to drag, even if I jump at the last frame with slope 16 (I actually have two jump one frame before that or the loss will be even worse). It also prevents me from making that jump at the end; that jump is made at high speed in the change from slope -8 to slope 8 (possible due to speed and subpixel position). That jump grants me the vertical speed boost of slope -8 with the forward speed boost of slope 8; the time it takes for the vertical speed to reach the drag range makes me suffer from only 7 frames of drag before it becomes irrelevant (as the screen stops scrolling because I reach the boss area).
DemonStrate wrote:
Or in Spring Yard 2, at then end of it.
In this case, the speed gain nets exactly the frame lost due to the jump and nothing else.
DemonStrate wrote:
Edit: Also, as of not the latest WIP, but the one before it, mine desyncs at, I believe, Labyrinth Zone 3. It still does this in the latest also.
Nineko beat me to the punch (the server was under heavy load when I wrote the original reply), but: it is very likely that you are using the version v2.1 of the hack; I have checked, and the movie desynchs in Labyrinth 3 with that version. The movie is meant to be played with v2.1.1, a bugfix release that was released shortly after v2.1.
Joined: 4/18/2006
Posts: 179
Location: East Petersburg, PA
marzojr wrote:
DemonStrate wrote:
What is the requirement of a hill or angle to be able to jump off of it to gain forward momentum?
Ground speed, slope gradient and how (and if) the slope gradient is changing. The optimal jumps to make in slopes are the ones that not only actually increase your speed, but that leave you with (a) a positive vertical speed (going down) or (b) the ones that leave you with a really high negative vertical speed (going up) and end by hitting the ceiling before speed reaches the drag range (upward speed in the 0 to -1000 range). With Tails in particular, any slope jump that allows you to start flight at or above the screen's top edge before drag kicks in is also optimal, in that your vertical speed will be set to zero when you start flight in these cases and prevent further loss to drag (SLZ2 is the perfect example).
Jumping also makes a slight (1-frame) pause during which position is not changed. This must be considered when determining if a slope jump is worth it.
DemonStrate wrote:
There are a few levels where there is a hill, and I didn't know if there was a reason you don't jump forward off of it.
The most likely reason is that I would lose most of the speed gained (and then some) because of drag. The second most likely reason is that the speed gain is not enough to reduce the time further (because of the 1-frame cost or because the distance is too short or both), and the jump would not have any entertainment value.
Of note:
DemonStrate wrote:
Like in Marble Zone 3, at the end of it before the boss.
Jumping from that slope loses most of the benefits to drag, even if I jump at the last frame with slope 16 (I actually have two jump one frame before that or the loss will be even worse). It also prevents me from making that jump at the end; that jump is made at high speed in the change from slope -8 to slope 8 (possible due to speed and subpixel position). That jump grants me the vertical speed boost of slope -8 with the forward speed boost of slope 8; the time it takes for the vertical speed to reach the drag range makes me suffer from only 7 frames of drag before it becomes irrelevant (as the screen stops scrolling because I reach the boss area).
DemonStrate wrote:
Or in Spring Yard 2, at then end of it.
In this case, the speed gain nets exactly the frame lost due to the jump and nothing else.
DemonStrate wrote:
Edit: Also, as of not the latest WIP, but the one before it, mine desyncs at, I believe, Labyrinth Zone 3. It still does this in the latest also.
Nineko beat me to the punch (the server was under heavy load when I wrote the original reply), but: it is very likely that you are using the version v2.1 of the hack; I have checked, and the movie desynchs in Labyrinth 3 with that version. The movie is meant to be played with v2.1.1, a bugfix release that was released shortly after v2.1.
Wow, thanks for the explanation of that. Most people usually don't go into such great detail, and I've never really looked into the specifics of movement in a Sonic game works. I understand the basic glitches and such, but this was just something I was wondering about.
Also, thanks for notifying me about the update to the game. It gets annoying when things desync and I have no idea why. I'm not used to the fact of a 16-bit game getting updated. Lol.
Finally, thanks for the constant WIP updates. I enjoy watching them, even if its hard for me to tell the noticeable difference from the previous WIP.
"I think we can put our differences behind us... for science, you monster."
I managed to reduce SY1 time by 3 frames, but I am stuck trying to make some improvements to SY3. I am this close to a major improvement -- but sadly, it seems to be impossible... which is kind of frustrating.
I mean: just look at how close I get... I recon that some 5-10 frames ought to do it, but the number of re-records of this movie shows just how much different things I have tried on this level... since I started trying to improve this part in the beginning.
Improved SYZ1 by 3 frames and LZ1 by 1 frame.
Full game WIP
I think this will be the final WIP; I managed to improve the attempted SYZ3 shortcut by 2 frames (check here), but hacking a savestate to get full spindash speed with a single rev (gaining 5 frames) shows that it cannot be done.
Just to contradict myself, I managed to gain 8 more frames in SYZ3 (WIP). But in any event, I will submit it as soon as I find a suitable screenshot.
Edit: There, it is done.
Thats a nice work there. Can't wait to see how act 3 will turn out.
I have a very important piece of advice for you: try to optimize the levels before Labyrinth Zone as best as you can before trying to tackle it. That zone will frustrate you to no end with the ease with which it desynchs due to lag when you change earlier levels.
I have a problem in improve the time of Green Hill act 3 or to do so at the same time in the that made MarzoJr (28.25). I will show, whenever I try, I get to do between: 28.47 and 28.56.
It is very difficult
It is tricky, yes. One thing which may help (and may shave a few frames in GHZ1) is a slight optimization you can do to spindashes; I noticed at least one in GHZ1 where you can do it. When on level ground (angle 0), and your speed (on the next frame) is less than 128 subpixels/frame, you can hold L+R for 1 frame to set it to 128 subpixels/frame and then press D+back for 1 frame to brake for 1 more frame and duck at the same time. You will be able to start charging the spindash in the next frame, which may shave one or more frames.
Example: frame 815, advance to 816 holding L+R, press D+L on the next frame advance and charging the spindash removes 1 frame. Using this, a 1-frame jump, and some slight changes in deceleration pattern, and using the L+R/D+L trick again for the next spindash, I can get a fully charged spindash 5 frames earlier than your WIP (0:06::22 as opposed to 0:06::27).
Everything I tried in MZ1-3 didn't result in any net gains (I can gain 1-2 frames here or there, but always lost those frames it due to difference in pixel/subpixel position). But I have a substantial improvement in store for SY1 (which, in retrospect, is blindingly obvious). But I will finish a resynching script I am working on before I submit the SY1 improvement.
Edit: forgot to link in the movie.
Joined: 8/30/2010
Posts: 500
Location: Argentina Bs. As.
Well I have been trying to improve GHZ1, but did so very slow. Then try GHZ2 and if I do, GHZ3 no.
GHZ2: I managed to improve since the beginning of the level after the spin-dash, is jumps to avoid the vermin and is made slower. The hill, which is before the stone, makes it faster to jump, but not much. And so I could improve GHZ2. See here
I will see if I can with more improvements
[18:51] <scrimpy> Oh, nothing
[18:51] <mmarks> oh
[18:51] <Nach> I think scrimpy is just jealous of you mmarks
