Post by rhebus

Posted: 3/17/2007 8:12 PM

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Comicalflop

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Location: Massachussetts, USA

Mission wise yes, a complete port. There might be (I think) one extra bonus mission of some sort in N64? I don't remember exactly...

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Posted: 4/21/2007 10:11 PM

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The_Great_Morphologous

Joined: 4/12/2007
Posts: 78
Location: Atlanta, GA

I'm pretty sure that the computer cheats by giving itself units and minerals mid game. Try to check out the in game triggers for each level, it might help to know when the attacks are coordinated. For the survival maps, usually the waves come at around the same time, so there must be triggers for that. And if you end up wiping out their base and don't want to fight the trigger created zerg in the last seconds, you might be able to find the spawn location and put down a couple of vultures or half finished buildings, causing an [Invalid unit location [73,55]], though the sound is very annoying. On another point, is it possible to use cheats, like to see the whole map, during the mission, then hex edit it out after finishing?

Posted: 4/21/2007 10:26 PM

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Comicalflop

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Since the missions are the same form the PC, using a cheat to see whole map, taking a screenshot, and then using that as reference should work just as well. BTW, I don't remember if this was looked into or not, but was making a Terran base float and land on minerals to start mining, or on top of an enemy base to make it explode, found to work in N64? I still have not fully worked out the kinks of getting a TAS to work. As I was telling Flagitious, my gln64 video plugin for the game got screwed up somehow, and no other plugin I've found renders the game as perfectly as it did; no others make the game work in small things lik getting drones to morph into units or buildings, and other minor, yet crucial elements like that. the game can be sped up a little bit in play, but still not as fast as fastest PC speed. and I've yet to find a concrete way to get units to run past enemies, except to follow that unit in frame advance and test which frames to press ^C to cause a frame of delay on the unit's part not to occur.

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Posted: 5/12/2007 6:42 PM

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Comicalflop

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I did a bunch of noodling and I've completely worked out all of the quirks I was getting. So now the only thing standing in the way is the desynchs that might be present from the Exp Pak. -Desynchs caused by .fla I was able to solve; whenever recording or finishing watching the full movie in read only, be always sure to delete the .fla -Units can run past enemies, spam of move button is needed; or at the very least another unit to distract. My gln64 plugin went kaplooey and renders SC64 all weird, but fortunately Jabo's 1.6 still makes this game run top notch. Question: what settings besides speed should be set to max? cursor speed to max seems like a good idea, but how about Quickeys Timer and Unit Info Timer?

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Posted: 5/12/2007 11:29 PM

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Twelvepack

Joined: 5/2/2006
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Location: Boulder, CO

Might be more fun to watch if you use nothing but mass SCVs and bunkers... if its even doable.

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Posted: 5/13/2007 2:10 AM

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Blublu

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Joined: 3/11/2004
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For the 30-minute Terran mission, I think it might be possible to survive without building any additional units beyond the ones you start with. Remember, in a TAS, any attack or defense force should be almost unbeatable unless you are extremely outnumbered. Of course it would be a major pain in the ass to do the level that way, making sure no units are ever harmed borders on ludicrous. But it might be possible. Maybe. Then again, probably not. In that case, just annihilate the Zerg as quickly as possible, then play around with your marines, placing them in weird formations and stuff like that. Edit: In the PC version, you start with 16 marines, 3 vultures, and 3 SCVs. Plus you have 2 bunkers and 3 missle turrets. I'm guessing it should be about the same in the N64 version. Hardly an impressive force, though I'm still not convinced it's impossible.

Posted: 5/13/2007 3:56 AM

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Comicalflop

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I'm thinking the Terran Brood War Campaign should be done first in a TAS, not Vanilla Terran. The BW campaign does not have any missions lasting 30 minutes.

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Posted: 5/14/2007 9:23 PM

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The_Great_Morphologous

Joined: 4/12/2007
Posts: 78
Location: Atlanta, GA

In the PC version, I know that the fastest setting counts 1.5x faster than normal, so all timed missions are only 2/3 their actual length. Also, I remember once downloading the missions online, so that you could see the actual triggers and locations. I've been trying to find them again, but have had no luck.

Posted: 5/15/2007 8:32 PM

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bobthefish

Joined: 5/9/2006
Posts: 1

I thought I'd attempt to help somewhat, so since I couldn't figure out where I actually downloaded the original and BW campaigns from (I think it was from a link on teamliquid.net, but who knows), I uploaded them to filefront. The link is http://files.filefront.com//;7517694;;/. Sorry if the download speeds aren't great, it was just the first place I thought to throw them up at. Good luck.

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Posted: 5/22/2007 8:53 PM

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The_Great_Morphologous

Joined: 4/12/2007
Posts: 78
Location: Atlanta, GA

Thank you, this is exactly what I've been looking for. This should be very useful in finding how to end missions quickly. I can't help out with BW planning, as I lost that disk a while ago.

Posted: 5/22/2007 9:07 PM

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Comicalflop

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There's also the SDA speedruns to watch for ideas. I've done some timings... and the N64 should automatically get faster times than PC regardless of how fast you can set the speed. The PC has the dialogues take up in-game time, and they can be long as the characters take their merry little time talking. the N64 has pop-up screens showing the dialogue, and you can skip each message by pressing A. You can scroll very quickly through these messages; thus, every single mission, in all 6 campaigns can be inherantly shorter than PC times. But looking beyond that, you can still increase speed to 80-90% (I haven't accurately checked) of what the max PC speed is. having access to slowdown and savestates can lead to perfection, so you can get even lower times because of that. That, plus maybe doing some glitches (if they work for N64, like making a Terran command base landing on an opponents') and new strats can lead to shorter times. I predict Terran BW, in real time, to take no longer than 35 minutes, and it's very likely to be shorter than that.

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Posted: 5/22/2007 11:03 PM

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laughing_gas

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comicalflop wrote:

The PC has the dialogues take up in-game time, and they can be long as the characters take their merry little time talking. the N64 has pop-up screens showing the dialogue, and you can skip each message by pressing A. You can scroll very quickly through these messages; thus, every single mission, in all 6 campaigns can be inherantly shorter than PC times.

IIRC spider-waffle figured out a way to use the game menu to skip the dialogue in the PC version.

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Posted: 5/23/2007 5:31 PM

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meepers

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Joined: 12/18/2005
Posts: 250

I believe how the PC StarCraft timing system works is that it counts all in-game time provided the main menu (when you press Escape) is not up. So I think how the trick works is that you need to do the following: 1. Bring up the menu right when someone starts the dialogue 2. Wait. :) 3. Unpause when the conversation is almost over.. ? That SHOULD reduce the game-time down, since the counter doesn't count when the menu comes up. Yup. Is anyone trying to run this or waiting on a runner (maybe me?) to start? o.o Sidenote: So.. Terran BW or Zerg BW? Terran? YEAH?

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Posted: 5/23/2007 7:05 PM

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Comicalflop

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See, the thing is, I looked at the SDA speedruns that pause before dialogue is started.... and yet the in-game timer is still going. I know this because the real time length of the movie is still the same length as the speedrun itself. For N64, I know for a fact that the action always stops when a dialogue occurs (instead of pressing pause to manually make things stop) and this makes the in-game timer stop. Plus, the dialogues are not speeches that are spoken out, but text messages that you can skip naturally, thus lowering both the in-game time and the real time. Waiting for a runner on my part. I'd work on this, but 4 other projects need to be done first. I've worked out most of the problems (ALWAYS remember to deleate the .fla save file before recording, and before watching in read only mode, and spam the move button to make units move somewhere without getting too distrcated), although you are probably still bound to run into desynchs due to the Exp Pak. you can go ahead and take this .m64, (you can manually change the author info).) I have the Terran BW campaign already selected, and the necessary menu options changed to speed things up. So yeah, Terran BW. you will have 8 missions, none over 8 minutes, with the best music and IMO the most missions with the greatest amount of action, and the least amount of "meticulously bring one or more unit character past hundreds of enemies". So, overall the best bang for your buck. Buene suerte!

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Posted: 5/24/2007 4:29 PM

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meepers

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Joined: 12/18/2005
Posts: 250

Does it really matter about the dialogue killing in-game time? This sounds a bit like the version differences. (ex: mm3 intro (J) vs (U) or something) Besides, a few seconds of text is a lot easier than having the N64's non-existent sound chip to emulate 20+ second dialogue. With that said though, I've fooled around with StarCraft since interest in the game has perked up just to get a good feel around for the game. I still believe that the PC version will probably have a faster time since there's more micro allowed (control groups, N64 only has 2). N64 doesn't allow as much since you're only using the analog stick, which is probably why they threw away the max of selecting 12 units at once (it's 18, if I recall correctly). :( I doubt having insane micro would help that much, although we'll see in a few days/weeks when someone (or myself) decides to run through BWT01. The strategy I have for BWT01 is probably the same as the current on at SDA: 1. Send Samir Duran to cloak and weaken the CC 2. Support at the end, or earlier if possible, with marines/tanks Alternate plan: 1. Send the two tanks to distract while building up a force of 8-10 marines to support Samir Duran in entering/securing the top right of the base. Note: If there is a problem with reinforcements, try having two siege tanks (maybe have a SCV tag along to repair?) attack from the front to see if they can draw fire and call reinforcements down as opposed to having the reinforcements fight the marines/duran. I was wondering how well micro can be used to extend the marine/tanks to help out Duran in weakning it, which would probably save a second or two, or perhaps even more but I'm worried that bringing those will cause reinforcements. My other worry is that Duran will be detected by the Turret or the SCVs decide to repair (which I assume is also what would happen if the player didn't counter with the tank/fbats at the northern wall. I'll try something out tonight or tomorrow with that strategy and see how I do. Does anyone know what the time gained is from just the loss of dialogue and having text messages instead? I don't want to be too happy over a 13 second improvement over SDA's run if 12-13 seconds of it is from dialogue skipping. :( KANPAI~ =]

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Posted: 5/24/2007 4:59 PM

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Comicalflop

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I predict, in mission 1 at least with having ~5 seconds saved from being able to do things on the first possible frame i.e. perfect micro. a solid strategy, by bringing all units to the enemy base as fast as possible could be a good 10 seconds, maybe. Not getting distracted by any enemy units can be another 5, and you'll have more than 13 seconds improvement from dialogue skipping alone. subtract about 5ish seconds (unknown) from slightly slower speed.. yeah, you should come out 20+ seconds faster. this is all estimate of course. some notes: Duran should be sent out as fast as possible. it's almost disheartening how easily he can make his way and start sniping the enemy base. send the tanks out, and time it so that by the time they arrive there, the research for siege mode is complete. (this is a general rule for the entire TAS as well. send the unit out, and just before they reach their destination, research/upgrade complete.) make sure everything synchs, delete .fla file all the time, etc. etc. maintain good camera control.

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Posted: 5/25/2007 5:59 AM

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Spider-Waffle

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Are you going to do brood war too? What has been done so far? For SCZ08 you can do a strat where send kerrigen to the bottom left nexus and everything else to the other one and kill them at the same time. Takes less than 2 minutes I think. The problem is that kerrigen hardly ever survives and you have to make 2 really hard psi storms on their obs. But it can be done with a TAS for sure.

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Posted: 5/25/2007 1:47 PM

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Comicalflop

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The .m64 I gave Vidar is for Terran Brood War. At this point, only that campaign is going to be done, in order to assess how easy it is to TAS this game. if it's easier than expected, then all 6 can be done; if it's as hard as we imagine it, then only Terran BW, because I believe that campaign to be the best to do for various reasons.

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Posted: 6/3/2007 12:29 PM

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Spider-Waffle

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Also BWT03 was done by ZelotITO but you can use a factory instead of wraiths to kill red faster, you put the facotry up on the cliff and the machineshop makes a wall and your tanks are safe. The strategy is talked about here: http://speeddemosarchive.com/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=pcgames;action=display;n um=1118552930;start=1020 You could get about a 6:10 with perfect play.

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Posted: 8/23/2010 5:33 AM

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Spider-Waffle

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I think this TAS would be epic, Doing all the levels would take a long time but don't think this is something that would completed quickly, one level however doesn't take that long and you get to see the results right away. I think this is could be a good project for a lot of different people to TAS, it could probably be parallel processed and hexed together if we want to get it done faster. Here's an example of some stuff that could be done, 12v12 goon battle without losing a single goon: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4jqHujHSDc&NR=1 dropship and 4 goliaths killing infinite sunkens, fairly fast: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJR91e3szTs&feature=related

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Posted: 8/25/2010 3:21 AM

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Tiger-

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Joined: 7/14/2006
Posts: 51
Location: Mexico

Optimizing this TAS will be hell. I tried to TAS SCT01 for a couple of days and couldn't beat the SDA time, but here is something that made me shriek in terror. Fastest speed for the cursor, minimap enabled. From the center of the screen, the cursor can reach anything in 1 frame and click it on the next one. This, of course, includes the minimap. So you can reach anything on the map in 4 frames. If you want absolute perfect play you are talking about 1 action every 2 frames, relevant actions in 4 - 8 frames. That's roughly 900 - 450 Actions Per Minute. Very fast, and very useless because units don't react instantly, fire rate and unit movement is slower, I actually had to slow down a little to make perfect moving shots with Raynor's vulture. Micromanaging SCV's to mine perfectly got old, fast. So missions that center on resource management will not be very fun. Here's a WIP of SCT01. Delete your FLA save before vieweing, or it might desynch. http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1153260813/Test%20Run%20T01.m64 After the 7th marine I just give up the perfect SCV mining. Also, check out ALL those prompts. My time 3:07 SDA time 2:40 It can be done, sure. But unless a major glitch is discovered, or at least a way past the dialog, i'm afraid we will always be slower than SDA.

Posted: 8/25/2010 3:26 PM

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Derakon

Joined: 7/2/2007
Posts: 3960

Why is SDA faster? The N64 version is laggier or something?

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Posted: 8/26/2010 1:19 AM

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Kitsune

Joined: 4/29/2005
Posts: 1212

Probably. I never really compared the two versions. I rented the N64 version once, but overall, didn't care much for it. Probably because it didn't come with the instruction manual, and with strategy games sometimes they tend to over complicate the controls.

Posted: 8/26/2010 10:41 AM

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Spider-Waffle

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Joined: 5/11/2004
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This is actually the record, it's just not submitted yet: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJIeUKwbJdw Is the game speed adjustable on N64, can you set it to the same as on PC?

"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."